Dual Rec FX Loop - Possible to use as a tuner out?

[Resonant Alien]

Hi all - I was trying to use the FX loop on my Dual Rec as a tuner out, but I couldn't seem to get it working. (My Dual Rec is the 3 ch version, but it is the pre-2010 generation which does not have the dedicated Tuner Out like the new ones)

I am not using any FX in the loop, but I do have the loop "un-bypassed" so that I can use the Output and Solo controls. Since the loop is just sitting there, I thought - "I should be able to take advantage of that and use it for a tuner out" - I connected the Send to my tuner, and did not connect the Return (since I want silent tuning, and the tuner mutes its output anyway, I figured there is no reason to connect the Return). I put the Send control at 12 o'clock, and the Return Mix at minimum. I figured that I should then be able to engage the tuner (and mute the amp) by simply clicking the "FX" button on the footswitch (my model has the 5 button footswitch, not the new 6 button). But it wasn't working.

This should work, right? Do I need to connect the output of the tuner to the Return (or connect a dummy plug here) - even though the tuner is going to mute the signal?

Thanks!
Rick

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

Hi there,

from your description I think it should work. Are you sure the Tuner is ok, also the cables ?

MAYBE the amp recognises you don't have anything plugged in into the return and doesn't switch the loop on, but that is just a guess. Try setting it up normally, and also try another effect pedal to see if the loop basically works.

 

[Resonant Alien]

Thanks for the reply. I started thinking that maybe I have a bad cable. I'm going to check that tonight when I get to our practice space. Maybe that's all it is. Logically, what I've done should work. Thanks again!

Hi there,

from your description I think it should work. Are you sure the Tuner is ok, also the cables ?

MAYBE the amp recognises you don't have anything plugged in into the return and doesn't switch the loop on, but that is just a guess. Try setting it up normally, and also try another effect pedal to see if the loop basically works.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Plugging into the loop send should split the signal, but it won't disable the signal passing through the loop. The only way to do that is to plug something into the FX return.

I plug mine into the slave out. Works fine.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Due to the way the parallel loop works, to mute the amp when you select the loop needs a muted signal going into the FX return. You could either connect the output of the tuner to it (set permanently on) or use a shorted plug (a spare 1/4" plug with the hot connected to ground). Even then, you may get a small amount of signal leakage because the Mesa loop doesn't go to quite 100% wet.

 

[Resonant Alien]

Yup, had to plug the output of the tuner into the return to get it to work. It works fine - still a small amount of signal coming through of course since the loop is parallel, but it is working ok.

But I think I'll try the Slave Out suggestion instead. Still keeps the tuner out of the my main signal path, but gives me completely silent tuning - only down side to that is that I can't use the FX button on the footswitch as a Tuner on/off, but I guess that's no big deal.

I guess I can put dummy plugs in both the Send and Return and use it as a Mute switch (well, a nearly, almost Mute switch) :lol:

 

[94Tremoverb]

Using the Slave output won't allow you to mute the amp - it's driven directly from the speaker outputs, so it's only active when sound is coming from the speakers too.

Why not use an A/B box in front of the amp to send the signal either to the tuner or to the amp? For that matter, does the tuner even suck tone when used in front of the amp normally...?

 

[cheameup]

When I got my new DR at the start of the year I tried all the same things for the tuner. loop , slave out. It just works better in front of the amp .

I found the very slight,almost no tone change of having it in front of the amp is worth all the messing about of trying other ways

 

[MrMarkIII]

Since there is no signal passing through the RETURN and back into the amp, there's nothing to mute. There must be a complete circuit.

 

[Resonant Alien]

Since there is no signal passing through the RETURN and back into the amp, there's nothing to mute. There must be a complete circuit.

When I have the tuner in the FX loop, as long as I have it plugged into the RETURN, it mutes the amp because there is no signal passing through the return - well, nearly mutes it since it is a parallel loop so there is always some original signal getting past the loop. The tuner itself is muting the signal so there is no signal coming back into the RETURN jack, and when I hit the FX button, it takes the amp volume almost down to nothing. There is still a slight signal getting through, but that signal is not coming back from the tuner on the RETURN, it is what's left of the original amp signal that didn't get sent out the FX loop SEND. It actually works pretty well, it's just not 100% silent.

 

[Resonant Alien]

Using the Slave output won't allow you to mute the amp - it's driven directly from the speaker outputs, so it's only active when sound is coming from the speakers too.

Why not use an A/B box in front of the amp to send the signal either to the tuner or to the amp? For that matter, does the tuner even suck tone when used in front of the amp normally...?

Understand about the Slave - I was actually talking about using the Slave just the feed the tuner and then plugging dummy leads into the FX loop and using the FX button as a mute. But dummy leads would be an open circuit unless they were shorted, so I wasn't sure if the Dual Rec would see an open circuit in the leads the same as nothing plugged in at all (probably) which means the loop is still defeated and the FX button wouldn't do anything. Also wasn't sure what would happen if I put a dummy plug in that had been shorted....

I have a looper on my pedal board, but I am already using its two loops for other stuff - I could still put the tuner in one of the loops ahead of the other pedals in that loop, which is what I might do - I just wasn't using the FX loop for anything, and started thinking about ways to make use of it and keep my effects loops out front free of the tuner.

It's a Peterson Strobostomp w/ true bypass, so it doesn't have a huge negative impact on the tone - I just prefer having stuff completely out of my signal path if it doesn't need to be there.

Thanks for all the tips!!

 

[MrMarkIII]

"... as long as I have it plugged into the RETURN, it mutes the amp because there is no signal passing through the return..."

Yes, because there must be a complete circuit. BOTH the SEND and RETURN have to be connected between the tuner and the amp.
If you connect the SEND from your amp to the input of the tuner, then connect the output of the tuner to a completely different amp, then stomp on the tuner, the signal to the completely different amp will be muted.
The signal coming out of the tuner has to be connected to something, or no muting occurs.
Running from the slave out to the tuner still requires the output of the tuner to connect to something for muting to occur. Same as using the effects loop.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Running the tuner from the Slave and muting the amp with the FX loop (which you can easily do, with a shorted plug in the Return and the mix set to 100%) won't work because the Slave is driven from the speaker output, so when the amp is muted no signal will get to the tuner.

Just run the tuner in front of the amp at the start of the board. The whole point of "true" bypass is that it doesn't leave anything in the signal path when the pedal is bypassed - it won't be any *more* bypassed if you're going through some sort of loop switcher. Why make things more complicated than they need to be? If you have a pedalboard you already have stuff in your signal path anyway - why does it matter to keep the tuner out?

I thought you were using some sort of rack tuner that needed to be over at the amp and running your guitar straight into the front ... that's about the only time it would make any sense to have the tuner in the loop.

 

[MrMarkIII]

Nope, sorry, can't run Slave Out to Tuner to Effect Return.
It will squeal like a peeg.
Feedback loop. No, not that kind, the bad kind.
Manual, page 10.

I agree, this issue is becoming needlessly complicated.

 

[Resonant Alien]

Just run the tuner in front of the amp at the start of the board. The whole point of "true" bypass is that it doesn't leave anything in the signal path when the pedal is bypassed - it won't be any *more* bypassed if you're going through some sort of loop switcher. Why make things more complicated than they need to be? If you have a pedalboard you already have stuff in your signal path anyway - why does it matter to keep the tuner out?

Sure, but IME, "true bypass" pedals still impact your tone, unless they are completely passive, which not many pedals are - not as obviously or badly as non-true bypass, but there is still a signal degradation when they are in the path, even when "truly bypassed". I use the tuner at the beginning of a set, and maybe once or twice during a set as a quick double check, so since it doesn't need to be on that often, I just prefer to have it out of my path completely, because even being true bypass doesn't mean 0 signal degradation, at least to my ears.

I'm just gonna put it in one of the loops of my (passive) loop switcher and chain it to a pedal that also doesn't get used too much - no worries.

Yeah, sorry for over-complicating things - just get a little OCD about these things sometimes. :wink:

 

[94Tremoverb]

Actually what you're usually hearing when "true" bypass pedals suck tone is the effect of having two cables connected to the guitar instead of one - the pedal itself (whether "active" or "passive" makes no difference) is out of the signal chain if the switch really is a "true" bypass... although you need to be careful, because some pedals that claim to be true bypass, aren't - they're just mechanically switched which is not always the same thing. This can be really bad if you've got a whole pedalboard full of the things, plus the long cable to the amp when *all* the pedals are off... instead of just the cable from the guitar to the pedalboard. That's why a well-chosen buffer can often be better.

But honestly, if you're just using one more true bypass pedal and then a 6" cable to the first pedal on your board (with or without loop switchers) you're not going to hear any real difference. The pedalboard will suck more tone than that one little cable. Probably the only way you can get around that is to have a master switch for the whole pedalboard, and even then your cable length to the amp comes into it... there's really no way you can get *exactly* the same tone as with the first guitar cord plugged straight into the amp. Life is like that sometimes .

 

[Resonant Alien]

Good points 94. There's always some compromise....I'm just happy to be back with a Boogie after all these years - I forgot how much I missed these amps!