Might be back to square one. Volume on clean channel has dropped again. Gain channels seem to be starting to fizz out a bit like they did the time before last that this happened (this is the 4th time in about a year now that this amp has done weird stuff). More preamp tube swapping to come I guess. This thing is haunted!
DR volume levels
- Thread starter enuenu
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The amp definitely has a problem. I played another DR in a shop last week and turned all 6 knobs on the clean channel to 12'O'clock. It was twice as loud as my DR with the same settings. Haven't had a chance to spend a day fooling with tubes to isolate the problem yet but will do so in the next couple of weeks.
Even if I find a problem tube, I still feel the amp has a problem as this problem keeps recurring with minimal amp usage. I only had the thing checked by a tech in August. he found a problem tube in V4 (from memory) and replaced it. Then it worked fine. It would have only had 20 - 30 hours use since then at fairly low volume jams and the problem is back. If my problem is a pre tube again, this would be the third or fourth time a new pre tube has gone bad with minimal use between failures. All good quality tubes used. Has Mesa tubes in it now.
Maybe the amp is wrecking tubes for some reason. Of course I am basing all this on the assumption it is a tube problem. I will confirm this when life lets me get a chance. Plus this amp is really sh&%#ing me now and I dread wasting more time fooling with it.
Even if I find a problem tube, I still feel the amp has a problem as this problem keeps recurring with minimal amp usage. I only had the thing checked by a tech in August. he found a problem tube in V4 (from memory) and replaced it. Then it worked fine. It would have only had 20 - 30 hours use since then at fairly low volume jams and the problem is back. If my problem is a pre tube again, this would be the third or fourth time a new pre tube has gone bad with minimal use between failures. All good quality tubes used. Has Mesa tubes in it now.
Maybe the amp is wrecking tubes for some reason. Of course I am basing all this on the assumption it is a tube problem. I will confirm this when life lets me get a chance. Plus this amp is really sh&%#ing me now and I dread wasting more time fooling with it.
What brand of tubes are you running in V3 & V4? Those are cathode follower positions and have been known to kill New Sensor brand tubes (Sovtek, Electro-Harmonix, Tung-Sol reissue)?
Mesa "Russian-1" = Sovtek
Mesa "Russian-2" = Electro-Harmonix
Read here:
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25102&start=19
Dom
Mesa "Russian-1" = Sovtek
Mesa "Russian-2" = Electro-Harmonix
Read here:
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25102&start=19
Dom
domct203 said:
Well, they are Chinese Mesa pre-tubes. These are supposed to be OK in the troublesome cathode follower positions (V3 & V4). However I changed out V4 and put a Gold Electroharmonix tube in and WOW, different amp. I then put a JJ in V4 and it sounded like rubbish in comparison. I'm wondering what is going on, but V4 is a definite problem child.
I'm not sure if;
* V4 eats tubes or
* V4 needs tubes of a certain spec to make the amp work properly
* My amp has a problem related to the V4 position
The last time I had it fixed the tech fixed it by swapping out V4. Thus V4 seems to fail constantly.
Even if it was a chinese tube, it is most likely the use in a cathode follower circuit that is killing the tubes. Today's tubes are nothing like the ones being made when the original specs for these tubes were determined, a time when rugged construction, excellent materials, and stringent Q.C. standards were in place.enuenu said:
If this happens again, and your tech cannot find anything wrong with the amp, you might want to consider a NOS/VOS tube for that position. Nothing crazy expensive, maybe an RCA or GE Longplate, which can be had for 1.5-2X the cost of a current production 12AX7. The 1950's & 1960's versions of these tubes are very rugged and durable, and may just end the issues you are having in this preamp position.
Good luck,
Dom
Thanks a lot Dom. You've saved me a bundle of hassle. I might just keep this amp yet! I'll fit tubes as suggested in V3 & V4 & monitor it for a while.
Hey while I 've got you I am thinking of rewiring my 2009 R7 LP with new pots and caps as I have found the tone controls do basically nothing. I notice you've rodded your LP. Who did you buy your electronics from? There seem to be hundreds of combinations of cap type, cap value, pot type, pot value and wiring design you can use.
Hey while I 've got you I am thinking of rewiring my 2009 R7 LP with new pots and caps as I have found the tone controls do basically nothing. I notice you've rodded your LP. Who did you buy your electronics from? There seem to be hundreds of combinations of cap type, cap value, pot type, pot value and wiring design you can use.
enuenu said:
I sourced all the parts individually. The Bill Lawrence P'ups are from http://wildepickups.com/Home_Page.html.
CAL Redeemer is found here: http://www.creationaudiolabs.com/redeemer/.
I usually buy my CTS pots from Hoffmanamps.com. the pots can be found here:http://www.hoffmanamps.com/MyStore/...emplate&thispage=PotsKnobs&ORDER_ID=143603911
The tone caps are really a matter of preference. I bought mine from http://www.guitarpartsresource.com/electrical_capsmallory.htm
I went with the "modern" wiring.
Dom
Any of these tubes look good for V3 & V4?
http://tubedepot.com/12ax7.html
Be looking at the sub $50 ones I think. Maybe one of these two;
http://tubedepot.com/nos-12ax7wa-jansyl.html
http://tubedepot.com/nos-12ax7-jange.html - this is the GE one so maybe the go
Not sure if any of the extra tests offered are worthwhile (high gain, matching, balanced triodes, matched + balanced triodes, low noise and microphonics)
Thanks again Dom.
http://tubedepot.com/12ax7.html
Be looking at the sub $50 ones I think. Maybe one of these two;
http://tubedepot.com/nos-12ax7wa-jansyl.html
http://tubedepot.com/nos-12ax7-jange.html - this is the GE one so maybe the go
Not sure if any of the extra tests offered are worthwhile (high gain, matching, balanced triodes, matched + balanced triodes, low noise and microphonics)
Thanks again Dom.
I'm not really a fan of Sylvania's, never cared for them in any of my Mesa's, just my personal opinion.
The JAN GE is a decent tube, but to me $40 is a little steep.
I'm running something similar to this GE Longplate and this RCA Longplate in V3 & V4.
I find the GE to help clear up the bottom end in V3 and the RCA is a nice balanced & even sounding tube for the FX loop.
Of course, YMMV.
Dom
The JAN GE is a decent tube, but to me $40 is a little steep.
I'm running something similar to this GE Longplate and this RCA Longplate in V3 & V4.
I find the GE to help clear up the bottom end in V3 and the RCA is a nice balanced & even sounding tube for the FX loop.
Of course, YMMV.
Dom
domct203 said:
I bought and installed the NOS tubes you recommended and they work well. I have my volume back. Thanks a lot. The Electroharmonix Gold Pin I had in before installing the NOS tubes you suggested had also brought the volume back. However I took this EH tube out and installed the NOS tubes I just received. I will hold onto the EH Goldy as a backup for V3/V4.
The real test of the NOS tubes you recommeneded will be to see how long they last. If the same problem crops up yet again, I may have a problem with the amp. However based on results since swapping out the Mesa 12AX7 tubes in V3 & V4 (even though they were Chinese), I am guessing that the Mesa tubes are just not up to the task. This is contrary to what the Mesa tech told me, who said stick with Mesa tubes to avoid problems.
I am realizing just how important tube choice is in V3 & V4 in this amp. I might inform the tech about my experiences so he can pass this on to others who may suffer the constant frustration I have had to go through. I bought a DR becauase it had a reputation for being quite bulletproof. However I experienced a lot of problems, all to do with pre-amp tubes dying well before their time. I'm hoping this is the end of the nightmare. Without your assistance Dom, this amp would be out the door. I can't thank you enough.
I'm still in the mindset that next strike and I'm done with this Mesa. I hope it doesn't come to that as I dreamed of owning a Mesa for more years than I care to remember.
The nightmare continues. If you have the patience, check this out.
The NOS tubes worked well for 2 days. Then today I started to play on the green channel (channel 1) in pushed mode and heard this horrible squeal. It only happened in the pushed mode on the green channel. It didn't happen on the orange or red channels. Taking my palm off the strings caused the squeal to kick in. Playing a note would mostly make it stop instantly. The squeal was on or off. It came and went absolutely.
I had Mesa tubes installed throughout other than my new NOS tubes (detailed in previous post) in V3 and V4. It only happened in the pushed mode on the green channel. It didn't happen on the orange or red channels.
1) I heard the squeal and tapped all the tubes with a pencil, no change in squeal or extra microphonic noises. Mesas in V1,2 & 5. NOS in V3 & 4. Mesa power and rectifier tubes. No crackling can be heard.
2) I changed out each preamp tube one by one, replacing them in turn with my EH Gold Pin, which I know is OK. No change after each of the 5 swaps. The squeal remained the same x 5 times. Took EH Gold Pin out and reverted to what I had in step 1.
3) I swapped out all power tubes for Svetlanas. No change. I put the Mesa power tubes back in.
4) I then swapped out all 5 preamp tubes with a completely fresh set. These included odds and ends (all barely used). Sovteks, JJs & EHs. The squeal was gone.
5) I then installed the NOS RCA Westinghouse back into V4 (took the fresh Sovtek tube out). The RCA was now back where it was when I switched on today (see step 1 above). The squeal was still gone but now quite a bit of crackling was heard. Never heard this crackling before, even when this NOS RCA tube was in V4 in step 1. Weird.
6) I then took the NOS RCA Westinghouse back out of V4 and put the fresh Sovtek back in (reversed what I did in V4 in step 5 above). Amp good. 5 x fresh non-Mesa preamp tubes as in step 4. No crackling or squeal.
7) I then took the freash JJ back out of V1 I had installed in step 4 above and put the Mesa that was installed when I first switched on, back into V1. I hear some pretty bad crackling. Weird as this Mesa tube never caused crackling when it was in V1 in Step 1. I take the Mesa out of V1 and put the JJ back in V1. The amp is good again.
8) I reversed what I did in step 6 above. NOS RCA Westinghouse back in V4 as when I started. Amp sounds good. No crackling or squeal.
9) I reinstall all the tubes that were installed when I first switched on (as in step 1 above). This is the set that was squealing when I first plugged in. Now there is no squealing or crackling and the amp sounds great.
This thing is haunted. There seems to be no logic to what is happening. Unless all tubes interact in unique ways depending on the position they are installed in. This would mean I would have to try 5!(5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 120) permutations of 5 tubes in 5 positions. If you had to try all possible permutations of 6 tubes in 5 positions we are talking about 6!/1! = 720 combinations, so I'd be swapping tubes for a week. Try 7 tubes in 5 positions and I've got 2520 possibilities. I think you could safely call this mental torture.
Any ideas? Ebay is calling (but I won't dump a lemon on an unsuspecting buyer, must fix it first). This amp is not good for my mental health.
The NOS tubes worked well for 2 days. Then today I started to play on the green channel (channel 1) in pushed mode and heard this horrible squeal. It only happened in the pushed mode on the green channel. It didn't happen on the orange or red channels. Taking my palm off the strings caused the squeal to kick in. Playing a note would mostly make it stop instantly. The squeal was on or off. It came and went absolutely.
I had Mesa tubes installed throughout other than my new NOS tubes (detailed in previous post) in V3 and V4. It only happened in the pushed mode on the green channel. It didn't happen on the orange or red channels.
1) I heard the squeal and tapped all the tubes with a pencil, no change in squeal or extra microphonic noises. Mesas in V1,2 & 5. NOS in V3 & 4. Mesa power and rectifier tubes. No crackling can be heard.
2) I changed out each preamp tube one by one, replacing them in turn with my EH Gold Pin, which I know is OK. No change after each of the 5 swaps. The squeal remained the same x 5 times. Took EH Gold Pin out and reverted to what I had in step 1.
3) I swapped out all power tubes for Svetlanas. No change. I put the Mesa power tubes back in.
4) I then swapped out all 5 preamp tubes with a completely fresh set. These included odds and ends (all barely used). Sovteks, JJs & EHs. The squeal was gone.
5) I then installed the NOS RCA Westinghouse back into V4 (took the fresh Sovtek tube out). The RCA was now back where it was when I switched on today (see step 1 above). The squeal was still gone but now quite a bit of crackling was heard. Never heard this crackling before, even when this NOS RCA tube was in V4 in step 1. Weird.
6) I then took the NOS RCA Westinghouse back out of V4 and put the fresh Sovtek back in (reversed what I did in V4 in step 5 above). Amp good. 5 x fresh non-Mesa preamp tubes as in step 4. No crackling or squeal.
7) I then took the freash JJ back out of V1 I had installed in step 4 above and put the Mesa that was installed when I first switched on, back into V1. I hear some pretty bad crackling. Weird as this Mesa tube never caused crackling when it was in V1 in Step 1. I take the Mesa out of V1 and put the JJ back in V1. The amp is good again.
8) I reversed what I did in step 6 above. NOS RCA Westinghouse back in V4 as when I started. Amp sounds good. No crackling or squeal.
9) I reinstall all the tubes that were installed when I first switched on (as in step 1 above). This is the set that was squealing when I first plugged in. Now there is no squealing or crackling and the amp sounds great.
This thing is haunted. There seems to be no logic to what is happening. Unless all tubes interact in unique ways depending on the position they are installed in. This would mean I would have to try 5!(5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1 = 120) permutations of 5 tubes in 5 positions. If you had to try all possible permutations of 6 tubes in 5 positions we are talking about 6!/1! = 720 combinations, so I'd be swapping tubes for a week. Try 7 tubes in 5 positions and I've got 2520 possibilities. I think you could safely call this mental torture.
Any ideas? Ebay is calling (but I won't dump a lemon on an unsuspecting buyer, must fix it first). This amp is not good for my mental health.
All has been good for a few weeks. Fingers crossed it stays that way. There has to be a tiny loose wire or cold joint in this amp somewhere. Finding it would be difficult and not economically feasible.
Glad it all worked out!enuenu said:
Dom
domct203 said:
Here's an update. Since buying the GE and RCA tubes you recommended I have had zero trouble and I have been pushing the amp hard. The conclusion can only be that there are a lot of poor tubes out there. I am looking at getting some backup tubes along the lines you recommended. What would you recommend for V1, 2 & 5? I will try and get the same ones as last time in V3 & V4 if I can as they have worked out so well. If only Mesa knew as much about this as you.
I'm glad those reccomendations worked for you.
My favorite tube for the PI (V5) is the Sovtek 12AX7-LPS. They are very rugged tubes and have never failed for me in this position. I like how they seem to enhance the "note bloom" for solo's in Vintage mode while retaining enough urgency and clairity in Modern mode rhythms regardless of what tubes I use in the other positions.
V1 & V2 have the most effect with the core tone & character of the amp. Many players here prefer a Tung-Sol reissue in V1 for it's bright attack characteristics with a JJ ECC83S in V2 to add a little smoothness to the distortion.
For me it is a NOS/VOS Mullard in V1 for it's midrange character and an NOS/VOS RFT ECC83 for it's smooth lower mids and clear upper mids and highs. The RFT also adds some character to that "sludgy" Recto feel. This combination seem to work best for my rig and playing style compared to any other V1 V2 combination I have tried.
Dom
My favorite tube for the PI (V5) is the Sovtek 12AX7-LPS. They are very rugged tubes and have never failed for me in this position. I like how they seem to enhance the "note bloom" for solo's in Vintage mode while retaining enough urgency and clairity in Modern mode rhythms regardless of what tubes I use in the other positions.
V1 & V2 have the most effect with the core tone & character of the amp. Many players here prefer a Tung-Sol reissue in V1 for it's bright attack characteristics with a JJ ECC83S in V2 to add a little smoothness to the distortion.
For me it is a NOS/VOS Mullard in V1 for it's midrange character and an NOS/VOS RFT ECC83 for it's smooth lower mids and clear upper mids and highs. The RFT also adds some character to that "sludgy" Recto feel. This combination seem to work best for my rig and playing style compared to any other V1 V2 combination I have tried.
Dom
domct203 said:
Thanks once again. I will follow up on these for sure. I'll check the inventory of greengirl613 to see if she has any of your recommended tubes.
