DC5 tube advice.

[Setzer]

I have only recently joined this forum so before I ask my question I thought Id introduce myself.

I come from Northern Ireland and have played guitar for 20 odd years,nearly all Rock,Blues/Rock and my last band was Rockabilly!!
Have quite a few guitars-Ibanez JS10th (Chromeboy) Les Paul Supreme,80s Strat,Thinline Tele are the main culprits.
Amp wise Mesa DC5 combo and '71 Marshall 50w.

My question is on tubes (what a surprise!!!!)
I have read loads and loads of posts here about tubes so I have searched and am not being lazy.

I find my DC to be far too dark when I use the lead chanel-the clean channel is excellent.
I have had this amp for years and it could do with a retube.It has winged C Svetlana 6L6's in it that are nearly brand new.

Could anyone recommend some tubes that will brighten the amp up a bit?
I dont mind paying extra for NOS if that is the way to go,I have just read so much about tubes lately that my head is spinning.

I dont really like the Rectifier metal tone,just not my style.I would like to have high gain on the lead channel but the voicing clearer and less dark,Satriani tone would be where I would like to be heading.

Thanks in Advance,
Dave............

 

[edward]

Hi Dave,

OK, so for a Lead channel that's clearer, less dark, less uber gain but still with lots on the table ...use NOS 12AT7. FWIW, I love the Mullard CV4024 ...killer sounding tube that really adds clarity and indiv note detail.

Try it in the PI ...this will affect the amp globally, but you may like the tonal change in the Clean channel.

You can also try it in the Lead channel's gain spot (can't recall which preamp position that is, but do a search an you'll find it ...it was V3 or V4 I think).

Also, try a search anyway, as I have posted my impressions on this similar subject ...FWIW

Edward

 

[Fxrs]

Hi Dave,

OK, so for a Lead channel that's clearer, less dark, less uber gain but still with lots on the table ...use NOS 12AT7. FWIW, I love the Mullard CV4024 ...killer sounding tube that really adds clarity and indiv note detail.

Try it in the PI ...this will affect the amp globally, but you may like the tonal change in the Clean channel.

You can also try it in the Lead channel's gain spot (can't recall which preamp position that is, but do a search an you'll find it ...it was V3 or V4 I think).

Also, try a search anyway, as I have posted my impressions on this similar subject ...FWIW

Edward

I believe V2 & V3 are the lead channel, I know V4 is rythm.

 

[Setzer]

Thanks for the advice Edward.

That sounds exactly what Im looking for.What tubes would I put in the other positions?

I have read about tubes but I would like to find the right tubes for the right sound in my specific amp which is where I get a bit lost.

Dave.............

 

[sweatyk]

Hey guys. I just got my first Boogie and it also is a DC 5 combo. It has great tone. The outputs are Sovteks and the preamps are Groove Tubes which I'm not real fond of. If I ever need to change them I'm wondering if I should get Mesa tubes or thinking about JJ tesla. Any opinions out there on those? By the way mine sounds just as you described yours. Really great on the rhythm and really dark on the lead. I'm really looking for a more crisp distortion without the deep deep tone. I'm new to tube amps and hope I don't sound too ignorant. That's why I ask you guys.

 

[cb101]

Here you go on the tube slots.

V1 - Clean & Dirty channel 1st gain stages
V2 - Dirty channel 2nd & 3rd gain stages
V3 - Dirty channel 4th gain stage and FX Return stage
V4 - Clean channel 2nd & 3rd gain stages
V5 - Reverb
V6 - Phase Inverter

I have a bunch of NOS tubes and a wide variety of new production tubes that I have tried in my DC and in the end I went back to the stock Mesa's. Of all of the new production tubes the only one that I thought sounded good, to me anyway, was the new reissue Mullard 12axt. I just EQ the lead channel a little brighter and that seems to work for me.

 

[tetsubin]

First, I'm not into the NOS thingie.

Second: I don't really get it when people are complaining about the supposedly dark lead channel of the DC-5. Hey, it's no Marshall, Diezel or Engl. It's a ballsy Mesa. But they should know that.
Actually I don't understand the whole complaint at all: I run treble at 5, presence at 4 in the lead channel and even with no further graphic EQing there's more than enough highs for metal using my 4x12 loaded with Eminence Legend V12 speakers.

Third: Before going the long and winding road of tube changes and NOS-frenzy I would always consider the speakers first. Their effect on perceiving an amp as dark or bright is much greater than that of tubes.

Ok, but as far as tubes go, my findings are these. The current production Chinese are strong and clean/linear sounding tubes with slightly more highs. I use them in the V1 position of my DC-5. They lay a perfect foundation for both channels.

As I experimented with JJ ECC83s I found out something that goes against common opinion. Their tonal character depends on their position (which actually applies to all tubes, but it had the most tremendous effect with the JJs) So in V1 these tubes are definitely darker sounding than the Chinese ones; and they have a little less gain. But in V2 they make the lead channel so much more crunchy-sounding because they add fabulous mids the Chinese tubes just don't have. They actually sound sligtly mid-scooped in comparison which might be attributed to their accentuated highs. The JJs don't darken the lead channel when used in V2 but actually make it brighter/crunchier.

That is my result of hours of swapping the tubes back and forth, kneeling down before the cab and ruining my knees; all using lots of gain (~7.5) for metalcore etc. stuff.

The conclusion would be: JJs are not dark tubes. It depends on the position of the circuit they're in. Give them a try. They are great in V4 for the clean channel, too: warm and woody (sorry, if that's not a word, but tone is already hard to describe in your native language; I mean something like organic).

 

[tetsubin]

Direct comparison of a dark (Single Rectifier) vs. bright (Engl Blackmore) amp: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=RjkZHBJd5OY

My DC-5 doesn't sound darker than that Single Rectifier, it's actually quite comparable sound-wise. But both are definitely darker or more low-mid-heavy than most Engl amps.

That's the characteristic which made you buy a Mesa, isn't it?

 

[Setzer]

Well 2 things about the darkness of my DC5.

1-My tubes are real old and because of this they could darken the tone quite a bit I dont know if this is the case with well used tubes but they absolutely need replacing.It even sounds dark through my Marshall cabinet.I need to max the treble and have the graphic sliders dimed too to get near a sound I like.

2-As in all things in life people have different tastes.I like pretty heavy stuff but obviously not as heavy as other people do.Also tastes change and I dont want a dark sound I would like a brighter sound than my amp is currently giving me.

My amp is "too dark for me these days" and I want to have a brighter voicing.I dont want to sell the amp I would just like it nearer the tone I want.

 

[Esromeron]

Wow, if I were to max my treble and EQ I would probably kill the neighbors dog. My treble is at 7, presence 4, and my 2200 slider is center and the 6600 is just above it. And this nails older Metallica to awesome leads. I do attribute this to Doug's Tubes setup, as before the amp was pretty dark sounding. But even with the stock Mesa tubes I could never dime those EQ's like that.

Heres my tubes setup that Doug recommended.
V1 - Tung-Sol reissue 12AX7
V2 - Mullard reissue 12AX7
V3 - Penta Labs 12AX7
V4 - Penta Labs 12AX7
V5 - Shuguang 12AX7C9
V6 - Sovtek 12AX7LPS
With SED Winged =C= 6L6GC's

I've tried switching in and out different tubes since I got this setup, and I keep going back to his setup. With this setup I would not call this amp "Dark" at all, as before I would. Keep in mind that in the video tetsubin posted of the Engl, I would never EQ anything like that, and if thats what your looking for than my post may not be a great answer for you, but still possibly could be what your looking for.

 

[Setzer]

Thats exactly what I mean about dark.

I have lots of experience of amps as I have been playing over 20 years so its not a subjective thing about the darkness at all its a fact that my amp is very very dark.

That video is absolutely nothing like where I want to be tone wise,I just want a good (I suppose maybe Classic Rock would be a good name for it) tone.

I would like to be able to do both Rock and Blues/Rock but definately nothing along the lines of Metallica,thats actually where Im trying to get my tone away from sounding.

 

[tetsubin]

That video is absolutely nothing like where I want to be tone wise,I just want a good (I suppose maybe Classic Rock would be a good name for it) tone.

I think that's what the rhythm channel pull boost is there for

 

[edward]

Thanks for correcting me on the V-positions for Lead channel ...out of town now and just working off an aged memory

FWIW, the tube debate will rage on of which tubes, NOS vs current prod, yada yada... I don't want to muddy the already murky water on this subject, but if I may just offer these simple thoughts on the subject:

- Tone is soooo highly personal and subjective that one man's "too dark" just may be another man's "nice and smokey" ...so tone still lays in the ears of the beholder.

- Tubes are a part of the signal chain. So whether discussing brand x vs. y or new vs. NOS, some will and will NOT have much difference in tone. Like guitar strings, some are more similar while others are vastly different from one another. ...And NONE are "better" unless you deem it so for your style. Just view tubes as another part of your tone ...not the single biggest part, but at the very least a chunk of it.

- The easiest thing to do is to replace old tubes with Mesa ones. No harm no foul, and you will get the "factory-designed tone," if you ill. BUT BUT BUT, should you want to experiment with minor deviations from this tone, this is where tubes (and of course speakers) come in to play. No harm there, and only you can decide what works best. I've already found that, for me, and I was merely sharing my findings.

...Again, just my thoughts, FWIW

Edward

 

[blacklight_uk]

I remember reading something by Randall Smith where he has a crack at the old tube debate. He said something along the lines of "if you want to experiment with different kinds of tubes in different positions then please feel free. Our amps are built to work with many different combinations. However always remember that we spend hours when designing these amps to find the perfect tube for each position and these are the tubes that come stock with your amp."

He goes on to say that while lots of people try out different tubes they more than often come back to fitting the factory tubes again.

If your amp is too dark, it may be that what you're putting into it is dark in character. What kind of guitar do you play? What pedals do you use? Hell, what material is your plectrum made from, if you use one at all?!

It may be that the DC-5 simply isn't the right amp for you. For classic rock i'd argue that maybe an Orange or a Marshall will be more up your street, something with a more vintage british tone perhaps? Either that, or get yourself a treble booster!

It always seems strange to me though that people complain about the DC-5 being too dark. Then they tell me they only play it at bedroom levels! Try setting your master volume somewhere between 7 and 10 and backing off your channel volume to around 2 or 3 with the gain around 5-6. Set your EQ to what sounds best to you and then use the presence control to adjust brightness. That's what i do, and that's with a mahogany guitar (my SG)!

It's amazing how bright these amps get when you crank them. In fact if i need to turn up live i often have to back off on my guitar's tone knob to stop my ears splitting!

Sorry if you've already tried all this, but if you haven't i reckon you'll love it! I do!

 

[Setzer]

I retubed the DC-5 with JJ's that I bought off a member of this board and I also tried the Mullard CV4024 in the V1 on the amp.

I have to say a BIG thanks to Edward (again!) as the Mullard is superb in my amp.

The darkness has gone now and I have superb clear individual note clarity with the amp.

This amp truly rocks and I couldnt be any happier.I dont have to crank the treble or the EQ anymore.I had bought an eq pedal a while ago to get to where I wanted to be tone wise and now the eq is not needed anymore.

 

[edward]

Glad you liked the Mullard. NOS is certainly no magic bullet, but with certain amps, in certain tube positions, good NOS tubes can make a significant difference, as well as experimenting with diff tubes within the family. There are some great current production tubes, to be sure. Nevertheless, glad that worked out

Edward