Cabs, directionality and duct tape

[tommo]

Hi Guys,
I'm sorry if this topic has been discussed before, but I've a questions about the too much directionality that guitar cabs have....

Right now I'm playing trough a 2x12" vertical recto cab; I love how it sounds but it's almost impossible to stand right in front of the cones due to the "beam" of high frequencies that are shoot out of the cones!!

I found that standing on the sides of the cabs give the overall best sound, and I love this sound....

Here's the question: do you know a simple and practical way to make the high frequencies diffuse uniformly in all directions? I've heard of Weber beam blockers but I'm reluctant to install them because I would have to open the cab, remove the front grill etc etc.....Some people suggest to use duct tape on the grill........that would be an easy solution....but I didn't figured out the proper way to put the tape...can someone give me more details? maybe with a picture?

Thank you very much

 

[screamingdaisy]

The best solution (IMO) is to simply deal with it by not sticking your face right in the beam.

 

[94Tremoverb]

This is what you want to do:

http://www.tgpwebzine.com/?page_id=424

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=470956

http://www.instructables.com/id/Guitar-Amplifier-Speaker-Directivity-Modifier-Bea/

The idea is also to stick it on the inside of the grille cloth, but if you *really* don't want to take the grille off it should work just as well (if being ugly) on the outside.

 

[espexp]

I have 2 1x12 cabs, one with a v30 the other with a black shadow. I had this same problem and solved it by using a piece of lexan (plexiglass). I used a six inch hole saw to cut a perfect circle out of the Lexan and then mounted it to the center of my speaker grille with velcro. The Lexan deflects more than it absorbs sound so that is why I used it. And because it's clear you barely notice it.
I'm very happy with the results.

 

[tommo]

The best solution (IMO) is to simply deal with it by not sticking your face right in the beam.

first, thanks to everyone.
you're right, that's my solution when i play at home by myself....but when you're on stage?do you simply angle the cab towards one wall on the stage?

 

[screamingdaisy]

The best solution (IMO) is to simply deal with it by not sticking your face right in the beam.

first, thanks to everyone.
you're right, that's my solution when i play at home by myself....but when you're on stage?do you simply angle the cab towards one wall on the stage?

I assume you're talking about when the cab is head level to the audience (and/or soundman)?

With the horizontal 2x12 I leave the front casters on so that it angles up. I'm not sure how that would work with the vertical version.

With other cabs (4x12) I used to carry a piece of wood to toss under the front end.

For myself, I usually like to have a cab that's angled up and pointed just below head level. Reason being that I like to hear my cab direct but not necessarily have my ear in the beam. I find this lets me set my amp up more accurately than the overly bassy and treble dulled 'cab-pointed-at-my-knees' sound. Once I start compensating for the direct to my ear sound I tend to bring the treble/presence way down, which in turn reduces the intensity of the beam effect.

 

[94Tremoverb]

I do very nearly the same, except that I keep the cab (2x12" combo) horizontal and lift it to about waist height or slightly above. I always try to check it by going off the stage with a long cord, and it usually sounds very similar out front to how it does a few feet in front of the amp.

I strongly dislike tilting the amp up as far as putting my ears right in the beam - at that short range, it's even worse than it is far away, and gives you an artificially bright impression of what the amp really sounds like, so you tend to dial it too dull for the FOH. I really don't know why people like to do that - it's as bad in the opposite direction as pointing it at the back of your knees is. IMO it's really important to learn what your amp sounds like out front, not simply dial it for how you like it where you are, and if you need to adjust the height or angle of the amp to achieve that, it's much easier.

For what it's worth, the top two speakers of an angled 4x12" on the floor are about right, too.

 

[plan-x]

This is what you want to do:

http://www.tgpwebzine.com/?page_id=424

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=470956

http://www.instructables.com/id/Guitar-Amplifier-Speaker-Directivity-Modifier-Bea/

The idea is also to stick it on the inside of the grille cloth, but if you *really* don't want to take the grille off it should work just as well (if being ugly) on the outside.

This! The silver bullet.
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=41349&hilit=donuts
Mitchell donuts

 

[tommo]

I'm not so happy to put something in front of the cone......I think that somehow this "donut" affect your sound....I've read on gearpage that different users had to turn the treble and volume control up on the amp after they put the donuts....

I think at the end that the best and easy solution is to simply modify the cab posistion and direction to the audience and to you, untill you find the optimal sweet spot.....but that's leave me with another question:

when you're listening to how a cab sounds like,and make comparison to other cabs.... in which position do you listen?

 

[58boogie]

Beaminess is a general problem will most closed back cabinets, Marshall included. That's why I prefer the 3/4 back cabinets, keeps a lot of the bass, but dissapates the sound better.

When playing live, turn/angle the cabinet towards the bass player. Enough sound will still fill the room, and he could benefit from the additional guitar fill.

 

[espexp]

I'm not so happy to put something in front of the cone......I think that somehow this "donut" affect your sound....I've read on gearpage that different users had to turn the treble and volume control up on the amp after they put the donuts....


I think the donuts are extreme and unnecessary.
In an earlier post I gave you a way to solve your problem.
Why not just try putting carboard(a 5 or 6 inch circle)over the speaker grille to see if you like the results. Use tape to hold it on. Cardboard doesn't work as good as plexiglass but it will give you an idea as to how it sounds. And if you have to adjust your EQ a little to get your tone the way you want it, so what, as long as it sounds good.

 

[94Tremoverb]

I'm not so happy to put something in front of the cone......I think that somehow this "donut" affect your sound....I've read on gearpage that different users had to turn the treble and volume control up on the amp after they put the donuts....

I think this is most likely because they are people who like to point the speaker directly at their ears, and haven't read the full technical explanation of what it's doing and why. It *does* reduce treble (especially) and volume (possibly, or as a consequence of having a less bright sound, which can give the same result in a mix) when you're directly in line with the speaker. What it does is to give the off-axis sound, on-axis - not the other way round.

I think at the end that the best and easy solution is to simply modify the cab posistion and direction to the audience and to you, untill you find the optimal sweet spot...

I agree, actually. I totally understand the theory behind it, and why it works, but I've already been able to find that sweet spot where it sounds more or less the same where I stand and in front of the stage, so why make things more complicated? But - this is important - the correct spot is most definitely neither of the two most common set-ups, either with the amp on the floor pointing at the back of your legs, nor tilted back and pointing at your ears.

...but that's leave me with another question:

when you're listening to how a cab sounds like,and make comparison to other cabs.... in which position do you listen?

Both the prefered position, and directly on-axis. While I don't like the direct sound, it's important to know what's going on there as well because it can be *very* different, and reveal a lot about the response of the speaker that you need to know about, eg if you're going to close-mic.

 

[tommo]

@espexp: thanks for the advice....but at the moment I don't have plexiglass neither a circular saw...but I will give a try to the cardboard suggestion

@94Tremoverb: It will be nice to do some numerical simulations to see how the donut affects the sound...since I'm a physicist maybe if I find the density and exact dimension of the donuts I can try to do the simulations (if someone else has not done them before)....I agree with you when say that they give you the off-axis sound, on-axis. But what I want to do is to find a way to have an "average" sound everywhere....

About the position on the stage, I think that to angle the cab towards the centre of the stage it's probably the most useful position....since the bass player and drummer will ear you better, and the beam effect for you and the audience will be reduced.....

 

[94Tremoverb]

But what I want to do is to find a way to have an "average" sound everywhere...

Exactly, which is why I haven't pursued this line because the difference it makes is too drastic. I like that average sound of standing near the cab with it high enough to hear properly but out of the direct beam.

About the position on the stage, I think that to angle the cab towards the centre of the stage it's probably the most useful position....since the bass player and drummer will ear you better, and the beam effect for you and the audience will be reduced.....

Yes, I do that as well, but not pointing right towards the center of the stage - to roughly where it will just miss the audience on the *opposite* side, so no-one is in the beam - although a problem is that then it can bleed into the vocal mics a bit, even at fairly long range.

I honestly think a lot of people are trying to achieve something that isn't really possible, by making the amp sound exactly the same everywhere - it can't really be done, but I think learning how to orient the amp correctly and actually listen to what it sounds like from out in the room makes the most useful difference! Beyond that, if you can't get it to sound the way you want on stage *and* out front, you really need to mic it and run it through the PA anyway - although I like to do that to the least extent possible, I hate playing at whisper volume on stage and then having to put it through the monitors because it's not loud enough to hear otherwise. It's all a compromise unless you're playing somewhere so big that the amp's volume is meaningless in relation to the FOH (like a big theater or a stadium!).

I really believe that live music in a small venue should be treated as a louder acoustic performance - the instruments (ie their amps, with electric ones) should be mixed as far as possible by their own natural sounds, not rely on a lot of extra trickery and sound engineering to get it right. That means the musicians need to listen to their own sounds as well as each other, get their own levels and tones right, and make everything work naturally to the best extent possible *before* trying to fix the problems in the PA mix. I've always found this produces a much better sound, and even a better performance because everyone is really listening properly. OK, it does often get to a point where you need a little help from the PA to get that stage sound out into the room, but that should be the end of the process, not the beginning...

I'm probably starting to sound a bit philosophical now so I'll stop .