Bogner - Does anyone else think this is wrong?

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davidglander

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I just found out today that the new Bogner Alchemist is not in fact a Bogner, it is a Line 6 valve amp!

Now dont get me wrong, I am no snob.. I can bust on Line 6 and sing their praises from every roof top. And before I bought the Dual Rectifier I was seriously contemplating the Line 6 Spider valve Bogner designed Head.

But for Bogner, a marque company whom I've desired for a long time, to release a £1000+ valve head (not exactly cheap...'the alchemist' but still half the cost of an UBERSCHALL ) only to find out that it wasn't created by Bogner at all is a massive cheat in my book. Kind Of like Gibson telling Epiphone to make the Les Paul Standard in Korea but put 'Gibson' on the headstock and charge double the price of an Epiphone. Or like Fender to set up a factory in Mexico to make Squire quality guitars but put 'Fender' on the headstock and charge twice the amount of a Squire.... Oh, hang on, they already did that didn't they?

Just kidding fender, Love you really...

But seriously, It's one thing Reinhold adding is name as a 'special thank you' and helping an innovating company to spread his name to the masses, but to put is name on TOP of a product which is not at the same production quality and costs as his parent company with it's superb attention to detail, kind of lowers the value of the brand name in my book.

I always desired a Bogner Uberschall, but now it's kind of deflated my dreams of ever seeking one out... What next? Dumble or Matchless Chinese Reissues? Cheap PRS guitars from Korea?...... Everyone knows PRs would never make cheap Korean guitars, right?

Don't answer that...

So even more seriously, do you reckon Marque brands like Mesa, Gibson, PRS, Bogner et al, should really be trying to conquer the cheaper end of the market? I admit, business is business and the economy is hard but, would you think yourself cheated if your beloved Mesa Boogie Mark IV was being rebuilt in China for half the cost and being sold as a Mesa 'SE' Mark IV?

I know I would.
 
People are morally bankrupt these days. Some people will do anything for a dollar bill.

Answer this: How many people do you know who would sell their name for $100,000 to a company?

I know quite a few. Hell, that's over 3 years of wages for me currently, and the majority of America.

If you want to get into feeling wronged, there's a thread over on TGP about Celestion speakers being made in China. They still have England on the label, so most people think they're getting a speaker made in England.
 
Funny, I'm sure Bogner also wants to sell some pretty good amps for the money, but for the lower end of the market. It's basically what segment of the market the company wants to target. Not everyone can't afford the USA made ones, so Bogner probably decided to made the Alchemist in China...
 
Everyone wants in on the "beginner" market, because that's where they have a better chance of capturing customers and keeping them long term. People generally pick out their favorite brands early on and tend to stay with them. When's the last time you changed your toothpaste, or beer? It's difficult to get people to switch once they settle on favorites. Gotta get 'em young before the cement dries.
90% of everything you see and hear is Marketing, whether it's guitar picks or the Iranian elections.
And as Theodore Sturgeon said, ninety percent of everything is crud.
 
Is it any more wrong than Marshall's being made in India with digital effects? :wink:

As long as it is clearly marked that the Alchemist is not a made in the USA Bogner amp (by what is now the "Bogner Custom Shop") and the amp was designed/tested/voiced by Reinhold B. then I don't see anything wrong with this as a business model. It is (at least on this side of the Atlantic) clearly marked as an import. Just because the Alchemist is made on the same Chinese line as the Line 6 stuff doesn't necessarily make it a Line 6 product - although it is likely closer to Line 6 than it is to a USA Shiva or Duende. Here in the USA they are also priced closer to Line 6 than to any USA-built Bogner. Also, if this arrangement helps Mr. Bogner keep his doors open and keep him from laying off staff, then it's a good thing.

It would become an issue for me if he were to move production of the USA amps to China without telling anyone that he was doing so. It would also be a real issue for me if his new financiers begin to push him out, like what occurred with Grover Jackson at Jackson/Charvel (and at least Bogner didn't decide to use an existing USA name for the import line).
 
I was at a show recently and the guitarist was using the Line 6 / Bogner head. Sounded exactly like the Spider II combo I used to have years ago. Which is fine, but it really didnt have a tube roundness to it like you would expect.
 
I'm not sure what all the up in arms is about. The Alchemist was known right from the start, even before it hit the market, to be a Bogner design that was to be built in China. The details of where (same factory as Line 6) really shouldnt matter AND that doesn't make it a Line 6 amp. Lots of companies use the same Chinese, Korean and Japanese factories duringt he assembly process and due to that assembly line production, the assembly costs stay down... and because the factories are shared by many companies keeps overhead down which is then translated to the price you pay. Egnater did the same thing with his newer offerings and to be honest with you, both the Egnater amps (Tourmaster, and mini stack) and the Alchemist offer a great amp design and good build quality at a more affordible price when compared to its more expensive american made brothers. The only difference you'd get is an amp thats hand built through a much slowe rprocess, better parts, a little better build quality and of course a much larger price tag.

So until the we see those factories moved to the US and the unions here loosen their grip and make building mass production affordible again, companies looking to break into the lower end market are going to have to go overseas to handle their production in order to keep costs down.
 
jdurso said:
I'm not sure what all the up in arms is about. The Alchemist was known right from the start, even before it hit the market, to be a Bogner design that was to be built in China. The details of where (same factory as Line 6) really shouldnt matter AND that doesn't make it a Line 6 amp. Lots of companies use the same Chinese, Korean and Japanese factories duringt he assembly process and due to that assembly line production, the assembly costs stay down... and because the factories are shared by many companies keeps overhead down which is then translated to the price you pay. Egnater did the same thing with his newer offerings and to be honest with you, both the Egnater amps (Tourmaster, and mini stack) and the Alchemist offer a great amp design and good build quality at a more affordible price when compared to its more expensive american made brothers. The only difference you'd get is an amp thats hand built through a much slowe rprocess, better parts, a little better build quality and of course a much larger price tag.

So until the we see those factories moved to the US and the unions here loosen their grip and make building mass production affordible again, companies looking to break into the lower end market are going to have to go overseas to handle their production in order to keep costs down.
Click to expand...

I totally agree. This thread makes me miss my old Spider.
 
jdurso said:
So until the we see those factories moved to the US and the unions here loosen their grip and make building mass production affordible again, companies looking to break into the lower end market are going to have to go overseas to handle their production in order to keep costs down.
Click to expand...

Just gonna jump in here real quick--it's got nothing to do with unions. Wages in Asian electronics factories are so low, comparatively, that it's actually impossible to match them in North America unless you find people willing to do, and capable of doing, semi-skilled labour for around $2.40/hr six days a week. Good luck with that, unions or no.

What's made overseas production really feasible is the, until recently, unprecedentedly low cost of international shipping due to, you guessed it, cheap oil. When oil spiked up to $130/bbl for a bit there, clothing and consumer electronics factories in China were closing because their orders were drying up simply due to increased shipping costs. It cost almost $3.5 million in bunker fuel to shove a container ship across the Pacific at that rate, which is about seven times what it did in the heyday of globalization circa 1998.

Manufacturing will start up again in North America when oil settles in over $100/bbl for more than 18 months, but unions aren't a significant player in the US economy anymore, and only slightly more in Canada.

Anyway, besides that, the Alchemist I played wasn't a bad amp for the money but the onboard FX were not very good.
 
Quote "I totally agree. This thread makes me miss my old Spider."

This quote made me laugh my *** off, but mostly because I found myself agreeing!!!!
I have a 75w spider combo iii (my daughter's actually) that I treat like my 'failsafe' ... if all else in my rig fails and I can't feel comfortable with the dual rec or the randall, I always know I can rely upon a cheap second hand 80 quid digital modelling amp and know I am in safe hands....


How bad is that???? I have thousands on pounds worth of gear, and I can only trust a little 75 watt combo ??

I guess the truth is, and this is my best analogy I can think of... the Line 6 is my reliable old battered Dodge Ram, a 90's Ford Mondeo or a MItsubushi L2oo pickup truck, I can depend upon it and know it is there working and doing exactly what it is suppose to...
My Mesa Boogie Dual rectifier is like an AMG Mercedes SLK, a Porsche Carerra GT3 or a Lamborghini Gallardo Spider... true, some times these amazing vehicles can drive you insane because they sometimes let you down and you always feel like an engineer is need in the passenger seat to make sure that you can fully trust the machine and what it can do... But my God !!! HOW SUPERB DO YOU FEEL DRIVING DOWN THE STREET BEHIND THE WHEEL OF ONE OF THESE DEMONS???

Admit it... it feels soooo good when someone jaw drops in the the crowd when he sees you open the rack he sees that treadplate head, or the Mark ii head or the full rack with the Mesa Pre amps. Just the same when you open a guitar case and you strap,on that Fender Custom Shop, Gibson Les Paul or that PRS CE that you saved up so long for...

It's those moments when you feels so good, I feel like a god even though I still have to get up for work at the UK Mail Delivery Site the next day.

But, I would be so pissed off though if my thunder was stolen by some little tit who said "yeah, your cool and all but... aint your Bogner head actually a Chinese line 6??? (sorry to the comment before, but the Alchemist, despite how good it sounds, is definitely a line 6 amp. It just had Reinhold Bogner's signature of authorisation and seal of approval, if you want my advice... go buy the Line 6 spider hd100 valve head which has the 'Bogner' logo on it, it sounds frikkin awesome and will save you 50% of the cash)

Like I said.. I own a line six amp, and I love Line 6. I just dont want to pay £1500 for one that says Bogner on it, when it isn't.

N' That's my £0.02P
 
The alchemist is actually quite different than the Spider Valve. the Spider Valve is digital modeling going through two preamp tubes. You have your modeling section first. Then the first tube is cascading one side into another and the second is a phase inverter. It then has the digital effects like chorus, phaser, flanger, reverb, delay and then a 6l6 power amp.

The Alchemist is a full tube preamp and power amp. It has 5 12ax7's and 6l6 power amp and it just happens to have digital delay and reverb built in.

Line 6 did not design this amp. Bogner did. He is just having them built in china so they aren't as costly as the American made Bogners but if you really look up the specs on the two amps they are VERY different. One is modeling and the other is a tube amp with digital delay and reverb.
 
davidglander said:
Or like Fender to set up a factory in Mexico to make Squire quality guitars but put 'Fender' on the headstock and charge twice the amount of a Squire.... Oh, hang on, they already did that didn't they?
Click to expand...

no, they didnt do that.
 
I had a chance to play an alchemist at GC the other day. Personally I thought it was a great sounding amp. My friend who was with me said he played it for a few mins before I got there but then I really took the time to dial it in. The cleans were great and theres even a crunch mode in that channel that sounded just as good if not better. The second channel had more than enough gain for metal and hard rock and was my favorite channel overall. Do yourself a favor and try one out.
 
The other guitar player for Dweezil Zappa is currently using an alchemist on tour right now and sounded pretty good live
 
I had an alchemist 1x12 for about 6 months... used it for both rock and jazz gigs and (tonally) it worked well for both. It was well built and I never had any issues with it. My only complaints were that the amp was voiced a bit dark and that the "boost" footswitch didn't seem to do much the way I had the amp dialed in. Definitely a lot of amp for the money, though. (FWIW, I also had an Egnater Rebel 20 for a few months and dug that as well, though it wasn't quite as flexible as the alchemist.)

That said, I just sold the alchemist to get an ElectraDyne. :) Nothing against the alchemist, but once I saw the ElectraDyne video I had to try one for myself.

--B
 

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