Blue Angel tubes

[Mincer]

Being that, after reading here, Boogies claim of 'Pure Class A' might not be so 'pure' on the Blue Angel, do I have to match EL84s when I replace them? Matched sets are usually in pairs, but I need 4, so if it does need to be matched, all 4 need to be?

Same for the 6v6s...do they have to be matched as well?

 

[SixVeeSix]

Properly matched tubes will sound better and last longer than just throwing tubes in at random. Get a matched quad for the EL84's. I love the Blue Angel, someday I will get a head or 2-10 combo.

 

[Mincer]

right, this is what I thought. So, Mesa's marketing about only using their tubes: true or not. Lots of posts on this board talk about non-Mesa tubes, which of course, Mesa warns about.

With the fixed bias of the amp, if I buy a pair of matched EH 6v6s, how do I get the right ones?

 

[Murphy Slaw]

Mincer, I own a Blue Angel 1;12 combo, had it for about 5 months. Love it. Great roots amp. I play clubs/bars every weekend with it, love it so much I bought a $300.00 flight case for it.

1; I'm looking at the Mesa Net Pro price list and they DO NOT SELL MATCHING PAIRS, OR QUADS OF EL84'S! Just individual. So I guess you can't buy matched quads there. I'm guessing they are all within' the range accepted by the Blue Angel, and the Lone Star Special.

2; I've been playing tube amps in bars for 30 years and have NEVER had an amp biased. In the old days there was a tube tester in the drug store. It was good, or it was bad. We replaced bad tubes with good tubes and rocked on.

3; I worked a Marshall JCM900, 4100 for almost a decade and had Chinese tubes mixed with NOS.

4; In a Peavey Classic 50 I went from Groove Tube 3's, to Groove Tube 10s, never had it biased, and gigged it for several years.

5; In a Fender Prosonic, I took out the stock 6L6's, slapped in a NOS pair of Sylvanias, never had it biased, worked it for 3 years and it's gigging this weekend, unless I take the Blue Angel.

Tube amps are very forgiving and techs will want you to get your amp biased every time you change your strings. (Mesa amps have a fixed bias anyhow). Tube salesmen will tell you to change your tubes every 6 months.

I'm either very lucky, or all this is a bunch of crap, and the tubes are either good, or they're bad. I'm gonna slap a pair of Fender 6V6's I picked up a while back in my Blue Angel if the ones in it ever die. It was built in 2000.

I might go ahead and order a pair of 6V6's from Mesa, and 4; EL84's, if I decide to change them on a whim, but my spares are a mixed bunch of Fenders, NOS, and some JJ's.

Now the tubes salesmen, and amp techs will chime in about my ignorance.

 

[Mincer]

i know lots of people feel the same way- there is a lot of 'hype' and misinformation out there. my main concern is that i get a good sound with my tubes, they last, and it isn't hard on the transformer. maybe i am being overtly paranoid, i don't know.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

The Blue Angel is the bomb. I wouldn't sweat it if it sounds good. I'm gonna order a pair of 6V6's and a quad of EL84's for mine from Mesa, just to be safe, in the near future, but if it crashed it would get what I had on hand, and like I said, a good tube is a good tube.

Mine is working almost every weekend on 7+ year old original tubes, and will dust any amp it comes up against for natural tube clipping bliss. A few tunes it gets dropped to just the 2 6V6's cranked wide *** open for my leads. It's barely loud enough but I aim my vocal mike toward it and "cheat" a little during those solos. Get it?

I don't know if you gig yours, but I think the Blue Angel is one of the finest amps ever built. I'm not into fizz and fuzz and this thing just rings with good tube tone. Running all 6 power tubes it will stay pretty clean at decent volumes, and (mines a 1;12 combo w/aV30) with single coils, the breakup you get is GOOD.

It's just a GREAT roots amp, blues, classic rock, country, jazz, anything but metal.

Best of luck to you.

 

[HipKitty]

In just "throwing in" some unmatched various tubes, you very well may have the tubes fall within an acceptable range that will not cause premature tube failure, over tax your output section and may sound good to boot....congrats to you! I consider this the equivalent of buying spark plugs off the shelf and not bothering to gap the plugs to your vehicle...the vehicle is going to run, but not in peak performance and you're going to waste fuel.

However, I guarantee that if you just keep "throwing in" any old output tubes long enough, you're going to find one(s) that will redplate (the plates inside the tubes glow cherry red) which will fail pretty quick if you continue to use them this way. This can and does do severe damage if you continue.

Ok, so there's the "heavy" lecture...the reality is that if any player that has the inclination, the desire to learn, gets the right equipment and has a good understanding of the inside of tube amps can do the biasing themselves. back in the "old" days, that's what most of us did....someone taught us one way or another, we got the equipment and just did it until we got it right. It's not a hard thing to do and understand.

Can you kill yourself? Yes. With some humility, I can say that I'm still living so it can't be that hard :shock:

There are resources available on the net and in book form if you so choose to learn. I believe that Gerald Weber has a video you can buy or rent. Bob at Eurotubes has several videos for different types of amps and how to bias them...check them out for free!

If you haven't ever biased your amp(s), I challenge you to do it or have it done and then decide which way sounds better....I'm willing to bet I know which way you'll lean after the biasing.

 

[HipKitty]

Oh yeah, even though the net pricing list doesn't reflect matched pairs or quads, Mesa does match them up and even goes as far as to tape the matched pair or quads together. They are also color coded..look at the labels and you'll see the words "Red", "Yellow" etc. Those tubes fit within a certain spec to be able to consider matched to colors that are the same.

 

[Mincer]

Oh yeah, even though the net pricing list doesn't reflect matched pairs or quads, Mesa does match them up and even goes as far as to tape the matched pair or quads together. They are also color coded..look at the labels and you'll see the words "Red", "Yellow" etc. Those tubes fit within a certain spec to be able to consider matched to colors that are the same.

Thanks for the info! My original post is an attempt to understand how people know what tubes to put in an amp that has a non-adjustable bias. Sure I can buy Mesa tubes, but probably half of the posts I read say they 'don't sound as good' as other available ones. The people who choose to put Mesa tubes in, do so because they are already matched to the amp, not necessarily because they sounds great and last. So, from what I read, Mesa tubes are 'easier' to select than other brands, and thats why many people stick to them. Do they sound good? Well, I have them in mine, but I never tried anything else. Many people who have rave about other brands and how much better they are. Mesa sells tubes, and doesn't really put specs on their tubes so they are harder to match with other brands. Lots of opinions out there!

Now, I have a lot to learn about tube theory, and even though I gig this amp maybe 4 times a month (4 sets each time!), it isn't yet at the point where it is absolutely critical to change out the tubes, which is what I am in the 'info collecting' phase. I know Eurotubes can match the Mesa spec with their 'Blue Angel kit', and will even sell me just the 6 power tubes for about $70, $120 or so for a full tube replacement. I know preamp/reverb/rect tubes don't need to be replaced unless something goes wrong, so I may just opt for the 6 power tubes.

 

[HipKitty]

No problem Mincer. To be a little more specific about Boogie tubes, the EL84 that they offer is from the Sovtek factory. It's a very good sounding tube and is the same tube being used by many big name companies. Very durable and consistant...which is why Boogie is using them. An alternative is the TAD (Tube Amp Doctor) EL84. This is an excellent EL84 tube in sound and durability. You could email or call Doug at Dougstubes.com as he handles TAD's at a very reasonable retail price. He can also select them to fit within Boogies bias "range".

I've installed several of these TAD's into some Voxes and they are the go to EL84 for me if the client doesn't have a preference.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

Good info HipKitty. I wonder.........

If I order from Mesa, how would they know which color I need to match my amp, or is it like the old Groove tubes 1-10 thing harder/softer?

If that's the case, I have a little leeway, as I'd actually like mine harder (less breakup) because it gets cranked pretty close to the edge quite often, (it's only 38 watts at it's best!).

The JJ's EL84's I picked up for spares, (just because I didn't have any EL84's due to playing the Prosonic prior to buying the Mesa) have a number on them, and were taped together as a quad, but they are not here, so I can't tell you the number.

The 6V6's were a Fender branded tube, in a plastic wrapped duet, but I haven't needed them yet either. I just assumed they were a matched duet because Fenders use those tubes.

Anyhow, best of luck. The Blue Angel is a very unique design for sure, and a very fine sounding amp when it's pushed to the sweet spot.

 

[SixVeeSix]

OK, real world here. As far as the tone of your amp is concerned - assuming all your tubes are in good condition and output tubes are matched within reason, there is one tube that makes the biggest difference in the tone of your amp. V1, the first preamp tube (typically V1 will be physically closest to your input jack) is where you can really voice your amp to your personal preference. You will hear some differences in sets of EL84s or 6V6s but nothing compared to swapping out different tubes in V1. This is your first amplifier stage, the tube makes an amplified "copy" of the signal from your guitar - everything after that is a copy of a copy. Try some different 12ax7s, including older stuff and you will see what I am saying. Throw a 5751, 12AT7 or one of the yellow print Sylvania 7025/12AX7A/ECC83 tubes in there and you will REALLY see what I am saying. It does get addicting though, you may find yourself popping in a particular tube because you are in the mood to play your Tele and a different one for your Les Paul! :roll:

 

[Mincer]

OK, real world here. As far as the tone of your amp is concerned - assuming all your tubes are in good condition and output tubes are matched within reason, there is one tube that makes the biggest difference in the tone of your amp. V1, :

OK, this begs a question. If the overall tone of the amp is on the dark side, name a vintage and a modern tube that will let some light in. Currently in V1 is a stock Mesa. Where should I start experimenting?

 

[domct203]

OK, this begs a question. If the overall tone of the amp is on the dark side, name a vintage and a modern tube that will let some light in. Currently in V1 is a stock Mesa. Where should I start experimenting?

Thats all a matter of personal taste. My advise is to get some different tubes and try them in V1. The Tung-Sol reissue is always a good choice (clear and articulate, especially on the high end), as well as the JJ's, Penta/Shuguang chinese, or even the Sovtek LPS, not to mention NOS tubes. Electro-Harmonix are the current Mesa "Russian 2" 12AX7. Once you find the right V1 tube, experiment with the leftovers in other slots.

I believe Doug's Tubes offer a "12AX7 kit" of 3 of the most popular V1 tubes. Give him a call or e-mail, his recommendations are real good, and he knows his stuff.

Dom

 

[SixVeeSix]

OK, real world here. As far as the tone of your amp is concerned - assuming all your tubes are in good condition and output tubes are matched within reason, there is one tube that makes the biggest difference in the tone of your amp. V1, :

OK, this begs a question. If the overall tone of the amp is on the dark side, name a vintage and a modern tube that will let some light in. Currently in V1 is a stock Mesa. Where should I start experimenting?

If the overall tone of the amp is on the dark side the first place I look for improvements is the speaker. What are you using there?

As for tubes that run on the bright side that I like - RCA 7025 (original V1 in so many 60's Fender amps), GE grayplate 12AX7a (under rated and still available), GE 5751 JAN triple mica, Tesla (NOT JJ!!) ECC803S are all nice sounding tubes.

Your results may vary, all my tubes are used stock that I inherited from my packrat Dad and stuff I kept from my teens. Oh, and organ pulls, keep your eyes open at thrift stores and yard sales for old tube powered organs. You can get some fantastic vintage tubes out of grandma's white elephant!

New tubes? I have used and like the Electro Harmonix LPS tubes. I have used the Sovtek 7025/12AX7WA for the opposite reason, to darken an amp with a too bright speaker (lazy man's fix!). Have not tried much else, still have too many nice old tubes to go through.

New tubes seem to be improving, by the time I use up my stock who knows what will be out there? Have fun and good luck finding your tone!

 

[Mincer]

as far as the speaker, it is the stock Mesa speaker. my blue angel isn't horribly dark, it is just 'a little' darker than i think it should be. i might try a V1 change first, and then go from there.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

Mincer, I bought mine from a guy in California that I met in a forum, and he'd changed the stock speaker to a neo. I wasn't interested in that, and he didn't have the original speaker, so I bought it without a speaker.

He was a bedroom player and the amp was otherwise mint. Hell it has the stock tubes still, and I've been gigging it 4/5/6 months (I cant' judge time anymore).

Anyhow, I opted for a V30 simply because I knew them, and never had a problem with one.

Anyhow, when I got the amp, I had to do some soldering and stuff before I could hear it. It was not even a little dark. The speaker has broken in quite nicely being run at 3/4 power in bars, and at times wide open in 6V6 mode.

One thing to note, the mid on the Blue Angel effects the gain after about 12:00, check the manual. Another thing, with my 91 American Tele (single coils) I use the bright rather than the fat because the fat just doesn't sound as good to me.

Best of luck man, it's one of the finest club amps ever built.

It's weird. People don't think clean, non master volume amps when they think Mesa, and yet they made one of the finest ever built and then quit making them.

And, on the other hand, people don't think dual cascading gain amps when they think Fender, but I also own a Prosonic combo that has become an incredible all tube (rectifier and all, also does class A) tone machine. They quit making them too. They're trying again with the Supersonic, but it's a solid state rectifier, no class A and just doesn't have the Zinky mojo.

But, to be honest, the Fender hasn't left the house since I got the Blue Angel. It's an awesome rig if you can crank it in a live situation.

Best of luck.

 

[Mincer]

Just put in a full set of JJs. Wow, this is what it is supposed to sound like. Its like a wet blanket was taken off of the amp. This is what it is supposed to sound like. Im sold-JJs rock in the Blue Angel.

 

[Murphy Slaw]

HipKitty, I called Mesa YESTERDAY (8-16-07) and was told by Chris they do not match EL84's. Period. And they are not color coded.

I ordered a quad of EL84's and a duet of 6V6's for my Blue Angel anyhow because I love the way way it sounds on 7 year old stock tubes.

I also ordered a BOOGIE badge for it just to mess with peoples heads.

Mincer, my JJ's (EL84's) I bought for spares are at a different location, but I remember they had a # on them. Did yours? What was it? They were taped together as a quad, I just never put em' in.

You've got me thinking..... MAYBE I SHOULD!

Best of luck.

 

[HipKitty]

Murphy Slaw, you are correct and I stand corrected. Mesa DOES NOT match their EL84's.

I guess I'm the a**, however, for the last 15 years I've been installing matched sets or E84's of different brands/manufacturers...Sovtek's, EH's, EI's, Groove Tubes and more recently the TAD's. The only times in the last 10 years (that I have records of) where I installed and biased with Mesa's have been the case of a specific band on Mesa's endorsee list bought the Mesa's in huge lots prior to their tours. They then in turn would bring in their amps for the installations and rebiasing. I personally won't purchase Mesa's tubes, with the exception of their Spax7a's...not when I can get the same tube matched and tested at a much lower cost....again, you are correct in correcting my info.