Best way to get a saturated sound at low volume?

[HeadlessAxeman]

Just moved into a high rise apartment ...
Have a Mark V with a Boss GT 10 sitting in the FX loop going into a Mesa 2x12 RectiCab.

Whats the best way to maintain the aggressiveness and tightness of the mark V at low volume (even at 90W?).

Currently, I'm using the output master knob as the final volume control (keeping the individual channel master volumes at normal stage worthy levels, mostly at 11 o clock).
I have level matched the boss gt 10 with the fx loop circuit of the Mark V and the knobs are at these levels.

Mark V at 90W mode (10 W loses its articulateness ..and 45 W/90W no big jump-in-volume difference but tonal difference exists..so prefer 90W)
Mark V Output knob (front) - 10% or around 7 o clock - barely up from complete shut off
Mark V Loop send level (back) - 11 o clock looking from the backside
BOSS GT 10 Floor Pedal - 100 %, Patch Volume - 100 (default), Master output Level (level matched to 4).

My question is this..is it better to drive the amp harder at a higher volume (10/45/90 w mode) using the output level knob(front) keeping the GT10 volume low or vice versa?

The reason I ask is because I know the Mark V will sound best when you drive it full and drive it hard ..but to keep things sane at low tolerable apartment friendly levels..which way works better? Drive Mark V hard keeping GT 10 volume low or Drive Mark V Master Output low with GT 10 Volume normal (foot pedal at 100%)?

I'm trying to find a way to not end up with a palmer box or a thd hotplate.
Also anyone find a way to do silent recording? The Slave out is a line level out - so the speaker cabinet will still produce sound no matter what. Solo-PULL cuts off all output signal due to its position in the signal chain...
*scratch scratch* :?

 

[MrMarkIII]

The only way to "drive the amp harder" and still keep the volume level low is to use an attenuator,
Cranking the channel gain will overdrive the pre-amp tubes.
Cranking the final output/master is the ONLY way to overdrive the power tubes.
Then you bring the loudness down with a post-amp, pre-speaker attenuator. These are really nothing but very large resistors which take some of the energy going to the speaker and convert it to heat.
Cranked amp sound at low to zero volume is a software solution.
Or record direct through the GT-10.

 

[HeadlessAxeman]

Thanks man..
looks like I'm going to have to get a power attenuator or make do with half saturated tones.

Software solution = Impulse Responses...I got that working for me - just need to take the transformer load off the mark V .

 

[screamingdaisy]

I haven't used an attenuator with a Mark V, although I have used one with a Mark III in the past.

IMO... it's not all that useful. Although Mark's do sound better when loud, they's just don't seem to get their sound from driving the power section. It's more the effect of a clean, dynamic power section pushing a set of speakers to pound on your ear drums... and an attenuator doesn't do anything to help in that regard.

When I low volume practice I generally leave it on 90w and flick it over to Variac.

 

[Neptical]

Screaming: My Mark III's sound pretty sweet at low volume..even in Class A they're pretty aggressive and still retain that sweetness. I actually like them alot at low bedroom volume. When you start hitting the Master Volume at 2-3 in them, I can definitely hear and feel the drive of the power section -- which is pure bliss! It just gets massive and thumpy. It's the same effect in both my cabs. Hopefully I'm not confused by your statement. 8)

 

[screamingdaisy]

Screaming: My Mark III's sound pretty sweet at low volume..even in Class A they're pretty aggressive and still retain that sweetness. I actually like them alot at low bedroom volume. When you start hitting the Master Volume at 2-3 in them, I can definitely hear and feel the drive of the power section -- which is pure bliss! It just gets massive and thumpy. It's the same effect in both my cabs. Hopefully I'm not confused by your statement. 8)

Massive and thumpy comes from a high headroom power amp pushing a set of speakers hard.

Beyond that, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to add here...?

 

[ryjan]

If you're playing at apartment volumes then you aren't even getting the speakers moving enough. If you can't let it breathe then I'd run a DI or something you can plug headphones into.

 

[HeadlessAxeman]

@Screaming: Yea man..i gotta try the Variac and check it out....or..I have to find out the hardway what the noise threshold level is in this high rise building Its true..that all the punchiness comes from moving the air through the speakers. 10w mode honestly loses all the focus and authority..so I'd never use it unless there is no other choice.

@ryJan: thats the last trick in the bag I'd resort to. the problem is that the slave out/DI on the Mark V is line level..so really not DI per se. I might end up having to use use my DAW/TC Electronic firewire stuff...and run an speaker cab impulse response ..and then flick input monitoring on while using ASIO drivers - ughh..hate the latency issues and upsampling issues.

I wonder if mitigating the signal level in the effects loop/chain while raising the level on the amp will actually help..hmm

I did want to mention though as a tangential side note that reducing the fx send level on the back of the amp below the default 12 o clock to 10 or 11 o clock or even lower than that..actually brings back some of the aggressiveness ..probably because the signal isn't overtly hot for the GT10 to handle

 

[Neptical]

Screaming: My Mark III's sound pretty sweet at low volume..even in Class A they're pretty aggressive and still retain that sweetness. I actually like them alot at low bedroom volume. When you start hitting the Master Volume at 2-3 in them, I can definitely hear and feel the drive of the power section -- which is pure bliss! It just gets massive and thumpy. It's the same effect in both my cabs. Hopefully I'm not confused by your statement. 8)

Massive and thumpy comes from a high headroom power amp pushing a set of speakers hard.

Beyond that, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to add here...?

ScreamingDaisy - I completely understand the speakers are moving some air, but doesn't it take driving the power section hard to actually get the speakers there?

I wasn't really adding anything. I was just commenting on your statement whilst we're having a conversation on a public forum. :lol:

 

[SteveO]

ScreamingDaisy - I completely understand the speakers are moving some air, but doesn't it take driving the power section hard to actually get the speakers there?

Nope. It's all about the output power of the amp and the power handling of the speakers it's driving. Driving a tube power amp hard will get the power tubes working hard, but how the speaker reacts depends on its power rating.

A dimed 100 watter won't push a EVM (300 watt rating) hard at all, whereas a 100 watter putting out only half of its rated output will push a greenback (25 watt rating) to the point of failure.

 

[screamingdaisy]

@Screaming: Yea man..i gotta try the Variac and check it out....or..I have to find out the hardway what the noise threshold level is in this high rise building Its true..that all the punchiness comes from moving the air through the speakers. 10w mode honestly loses all the focus and authority..so I'd never use it unless there is no other choice.

Where 10w mode can come in handy for your situation is a reduction of bottom end. For instance, bass tends to travel through the floor/walls more than other frequencies, so switching to 10w mode will narrow your sound and put out less bass to begin with. If your building is fairly liberal, than you may not need that feature... but if someone starts getting pissy, it might come in handy.

I wonder if mitigating the signal level in the effects loop/chain while raising the level on the amp will actually help..hmm

That's how the master volume functions.

 

[screamingdaisy]

ScreamingDaisy - I completely understand the speakers are moving some air, but doesn't it take driving the power section hard to actually get the speakers there?

I wasn't really adding anything. I was just commenting on your statement whilst we're having a conversation on a public forum. :lol:

I think I misinterpreted what you saying as an attempt to be contrary, when for the most part I think we're saying the same thing from two slightly different angles.

 

[Neptical]

Screaming: It's all good. I just got confused for a second, that's all. Your input is well respected. Thanks man.

 

[Jedro]

I think you're stuck. Unless you get an attenuator, I wouldn't worry about power tube saturation, it's all going to be preamp saturation. Aside from the desire to be considerate of others, the size of your room will dictate your volume. I have a house in a neighborhood and my neighbors are gone during the day. I can play as loud as I like, but the room I play in just won't let me. Maybe I barely get the power section cooking, but I doubt it's much.

I'd go for the settings with the most headroom so things can't get spongy.
90w
Diodes (or Pentode for Ch. 3)
Experiment with the different modes to see which feels the best at the necessary volume.

Don't know if it has been mentioned, but possibly think about sound proofing your playing environment if possible. There are panels you can hang on the walls, even the ceiling. Get your cab off the floor, too. If you can limit the amount of vibration thats being transmitted to neighboring apartments, you can, in turn, increase your volume a bit to make it more enjoyable for yourself.

Hope I'm not way off. I just think that living in an apartment and owning a 90 watt amp, you accept that you won't be achieving power tube distortion or moving air. I've been there. A few times!

 

[RedKlouD72]

I get my best low volume tones from the Mark V when I have the Master UP HIGH, the Output around 9:00 or 10:00 at 90W and Variac ON.

Loud, right? No, I cut the volume down with a Volume Pedal in my FX loop.

Also, if you wanna really saturate yourself at a low volume, you could use a light distortion stompbox before the amp. I'm guessing thats what that Boss pedal is.

 

[RedKlouD72]

OH I now see that the GT10 is a multi-FX...

I don't know how well this is going to work in your FX loop... but I use an MXR Custom Comp Compressor stombox before the amp, and it can be set to help achieve a more saturated sound.

I'd think your GT 10 would have the same capability (provided it contains a compressor)

I'm trying to remember what I turned the knobs to on the inside of my pedal. One knob is like brightness, so I just set that so that turning the comp on had zero to 3% effect on brightness (lol). the other knob inside the pedal is important. This is the Attack speed, and I'm pretty sure I set that to like 9:00. which could be somewhere in the area of a 12ms Attack speed.
Then the external controls; output and sensitivity. Output is just left at max... and sensitivity, according to the little manual, is ratio. I leave that set at 11:00. That could be somewhere in the area of a 3.00:1 ratio. I don't know.

but what I'm getting at is that the comp can be used to help get a kind of pro, studioesque saturation. fiddle with it

 

[HeadlessAxeman]

but what I'm getting at is that the comp can be used to help get a kind of pro, studioesque saturation. fiddle with it

Thanks for that tip - I've been using a compressor on the GT 10 for a long time now to get the saturation at a lower volume (albeit I keep my attack on the compressor dimed when I'm playing LOG type riffs). Over time I noticed I wasn't hearing all the tone that I wanted to - so I use it sparingly. A mild overdrive (TS) from the GT10 also helps sometimes or just using the SOLO switch on the MARK V Footwswitch with the SOLO Knob barely a notch above its zero log level. I finally found a sweet spot..I'll post the settings up here later - but turning down the send level knob on the back side to about 9-10 o clock seemed to bring back some of the saturation back - although I think its a perceived effect as opposed to actually saturating.

@ScreamingDaisy: The Variac at 90W works beautifully! I cut the flub in channel 3 by lowering the Bass knob to 9 o clock or a tad lesser. Headroom decreases a bit - but hey ...I can't complain - I'm getting most of the tone I want at lower than computer speaker volumes from a 2x12 cab!! And in Variac Mode I hardly find myself using the compressor or overdrive to push the amp.

Don't know if it has been mentioned, but possibly think about sound proofing your playing environment if possible. There are panels you can hang on the walls, even the ceiling. Get your cab off the floor, too. If you can limit the amount of vibration thats being transmitted to neighboring apartments, you can, in turn, increase your volume a bit to make it more enjoyable for yourself.

I hear you - My cab has casters - so that helps out quite a bit - but yea I would invest in auralex and bass traps down the line if I have any complaints.

PS: Ripped the EMG 81 18V mods out of my Jap Ibanez and put in a Liquifire(neck)-Injector(middle)-CrunchLab(Bridge)....faaaaaaaa&&$&$&&KKK ...extremely responsive and articulate pups. U don't need these pups or a Mark V to get a petrucci tone (if you're a chaser) - but man the crunch lab makes me come right back to the D-SONIC that I left for EMG's a few years ago.

 

[fr0sty]

I second this. I have a hotplate that I use for silent recording using impulses, but for low volume I prefer the mark's master volume. I use channel three on 10 watt, variac power. I lower both the master and the channel volumes to get it where I want. I don't worry about trying to keep the master volume low.

I haven't used an attenuator with a Mark V, although I have used one with a Mark III in the past.

IMO... it's not all that useful. Although Mark's do sound better when loud, they's just don't seem to get their sound from driving the power section. It's more the effect of a clean, dynamic power section pushing a set of speakers to pound on your ear drums... and an attenuator doesn't do anything to help in that regard.

When I low volume practice I generally leave it on 90w and flick it over to Variac.

 

[phyrexia]

45 and 10 will sound better through the 4 ohm output.

 

[MusicManJP6]

45 and 10 will sound better through the 4 ohm output.

More details on this please?