At my wits end!!! (Triple Rec help PLEASE)

[thinkdontpray]

So I came here once before and everyones help was incredible and after months of problem free enjoyment Iam having another problem.

I realize this will be really hard to describe to you guys so I will do my best.

Basically, a few weeks ago I noticed the head just not sounding right but because the only time I would have with it was jamming with a full band (and earplugs in) it wasnt too prominent. Tonight I had a chance to play by myself and I noticed a big problem. The distortion just doesnt sound right, in fact it sounds bad. Its really washed out sounding, not crisp, very trebely, very bright and almost hissy. Its not tight and punchy, in fact the very opposite, loose and gutless almost.

It has all new 6L6's and 12ax7 preamp tubes, minus a SPA12ax7 that I had in the input slot, then removing it and trying a regular one, and now a JJ Electronics one. (none of these alterations made a difference). So the tubes shouldnt be the problem here, but what else could it be I've checked all cables, bought new patch cords, made sure they were snug and not half unplugged, changed the battery in my guitar (its just a mid of the line Epiphone Gothic with EMG's that I tossed in)

I ran it direct without my pedals, same problem. Started using Channel 2 instead of 3, and it sounds a bit better but mainly because its not such a high gain channel.

And what really grinds my gears is my lead guitarists (temp)rig consist of a Marshall 50watt amp, being used as a head, plugged into a 4x12 Fender cab and a GODDAMN Metal Zone pedal, AND IT SOUNDS BETTER THAN ME!!! WTF?!?!?

So, I just dont know what to do here fellas. I'll have to take it in on Friday and plug it in at the store and get them to take a listen to it. Its still loud and playable but it bothers the living **** out of me knowing its potential and after everything I can think of, I am at a loss and turn to you guys. But I tell you from the day I first plugged in compared to today, it just doesnt sound like a Mesa.

ANY help is appreciated fellow Mesa brethren.

Thanks guys,

Kev

 

[thinkdontpray]

I should also say that I usually play with it on diodes and bold.

Ive flipped it over to tubes and theres still an issue, not as major, but still a problem.

 

[Platypus]

Do you still have the SPA12AX7 in slot 1?

Please post your settings for every control you can.

Is your FX loop bypassed?

 

[thinkdontpray]

The pedals I run, are through the front because for some reason my fx loop is wonky in the back. So I the fx loop setting knob at like the first one on the left of the dial, which I believe says Loop On?

No, currently in slot 1 is a JJ electronics one.


When I play In Channel 3 (2 is very similar to these)

I would have my
-prescence set at anywhere from 4 to 6
-volume set at no louder than 6
-gain set at about 6-7 (i have a tube screamer at a very low level for extra crunch, but unplugged it and went direct and still same thing)
-bass at 6
-mid usually at 2-4
-treble usually anywhere from 4 to 7

I should ask know because Ive forgot, the FX loop knobs at the back, I dont get. The level knob I usually turn up to 6 or so, and have the mix set around 80%, Ive noticed it makes a difference, but my FX loop isnt engaged? Or is it? Maybe this could be a problem too.

 

[Platypus]

The pedals I run, are through the front because for some reason my fx loop is wonky in the back. So I the fx loop setting knob at like the first one on the left of the dial, which I believe says Loop On?

No, currently in slot 1 is a JJ electronics one.


When I play In Channel 3 (2 is very similar to these)

I would have my
-prescence set at anywhere from 4 to 6
-volume set at no louder than 6
-gain set at about 6-7 (i have a tube screamer at a very low level for extra crunch, but unplugged it and went direct and still same thing)
-bass at 6
-mid usually at 2-4
-treble usually anywhere from 4 to 7

I should ask know because Ive forgot, the FX loop knobs at the back, I dont get. The level knob I usually turn up to 6 or so, and have the mix set around 80%, Ive noticed it makes a difference, but my FX loop isnt engaged? Or is it? Maybe this could be a problem too.

Try bypassing the loop completely and running without any pedals whatsoever. If this improves your tone then something is wrong somewhere in your chain (pedal running low on juice perhaps?).

I would try these settings:

(All settings are clockface in nature)
Presence: 11:30
Volume: 11
Gain: 1:30-2:00
Bass: 12:00
Mid: 11:30
Treble: 2:00

Bold power, tube rectifier

If you still think it's lacking tone, you probably have some sort of tube issue. What brand of tubes do you have as far as 6L6s?

 

[Leng]

And what really grinds my gears is my lead guitarists (temp)rig consist of a Marshall 50watt amp, being used as a head, plugged into a 4x12 Fender cab and a GODDAMN Metal Zone pedal, AND IT SOUNDS BETTER THAN ME!!! WTF?!?!?

I have the exact same problem, my '92 recto is a beast, it sounds even better than the brand new ones in my local Mesa store. I spent over $2 grand to get it and an '07 Rectifier cabinet, all premium monster cables, brand new tubes, and have dialed in the perfect tone.

And whilst it sounds great and it's clearer sounding and louder, it can't compare to my $500 rig consisting of a $100 Boss Metal Zone, $200 Crate Powerblock, and $200 Behringer speaker cabinet with just standard cables.

The Metal Zone being run through my solid state amp is just a gain beast with perfect tone.

However, neither of them sound as good as when I play them both at the same time. I get Adam Jones' multi-layered goodness and it makes me wet my pants.

I know that this kind of talk is offensive to some of the people on this board, but keep in mind this is just my opinion and I am in no way saying that a pedal is greater than a Mesa, there's no comparison to a Mesa. I'm sure I will play my Mesa for the rest of my life and once I really give it time, I know it will sound way better than my other rig.

I shouldn't be talking until I get a really high quality microphone and show you guys what I mean.

The important thing is that all my friends and family think my Mesa sounds much better than my Crate, so it'll just take me some time to grow to love it.

 

[Elpelotero]

it might be time for a cap change. I'm assuming this amp is about 10 years old...?? It's definitely time to change the caps out at your local amp tech.

EDIT: Never mind....I was thinking of some other guy's amp from another thread. But it still may be faulty caps if the amp is old.

 

[Platypus]

I think everyone goes through the period like this.. just one of the many milestones on your quest for tone.

I thought similar things back in the past before my knowledge of tube amps really took hold but trust me that you will eventually realize how much better a well built tube amplifier is than any pedal out there. If you haven't found it in the amp you own, there are dozens out there to try.

The most gratifying thing about pedals is that then are very simple to dial in and have very little in the way of controls to figure out. Volume, tone, gain. They don't need to be super loud to yield results nor do other factors such as speakers and tubes come into play at all. They hide your mistakes quite well in the wall of gain you're creating unlike the amp which shows your flaws. A well made amplifier, especially a Mesa, is not very forgiving to the inexperienced right away. You have to understand how it works and once you really truly do you will laugh about it.. I promise.

I like the metaphor of someone who just got the keys to a Porsche but is stuck in first gear, you have to learn how to shift before you can get the results you want.

There is a realm of sound that solid state will never touch and that's the feeling of the tone, not just the sounds coming out of the amp. How you can completely manipulate and own this sound like clay just by digging in a bit harder or softer.. how your inner musical voice can come out without any effort (once dialed). You will get frustrated.. you will get pissed off that one day you think you sound great and the next you sound like crap... just stick with it !

 

[Elpelotero]

it's also possible your ears have finally adjusted and you've found some of the beehive mushy sound people complain about the rectos having. A lot of people on this board (including me) have gone through this cycle of "this amp rocks" to "i don't like this tone anymore."

Try doing this:
-set all the knobs flat at 12 oclock. Put the channel master volume at 10 oclock. Put the amp on Modern mode, channel 3 (or 2 if it's an older recto).
-put your old tubes back in from when you bought it.
-disconnect your pedals. only play with the guitar and amp. Make sure to plug 8ohm to 8ohm. (if you're using a mesa cab).

On the back, switch to Bold and Diodes.

You then have two choices:
1. play with the loop in the off postion (bypassed).
2. play with the loop turned on. If you do this, now go to the front of the amp and turn the Overall/Loop Active Master knob (depending on your recto model) to 12 oclock as well. This is going to be a loud setting, but it's the only way to get a good power tube saturation. Put the knobs that control the efx loop flat as well at 12 oclock (in other words at 5 on a scale of 1 to 10). Stand back about 20 feet. Move from right to left.

When you turn on the efx loop, you literally engage a whole extra preamp tube that acts as both a gain control and volume control (on my old rectos, at least). When you drive this tube to its full by cranking the efx knobs, you introduce more gain. It can sound grainy and mushy. If you put too little, the same will happen. A grainy mushy sound.

 

[SixVeeSix]

Could be time to clean your effects loop jacks. Might as well clean all inputs and outputs. They corrode if you don't use them. They will also corrode if left plugged in and the plug is dis-similar or unplated metal (brass plugs are the worst). Your effects loop jacks have a built in bypass switch that activates when the loop is unplugged. Corrosion at this critical point can cause loss of signal fidelity. You can do it your self and it won't cost much, just be sure to drain your power supply capacitors to ground when you take the cover off. Unless you like being thrown across the room.

 

[Leng]

There is a realm of sound that solid state will never touch and that's the feeling of the tone, not just the sounds coming out of the amp. How you can completely manipulate and own this sound like clay just by digging in a bit harder or softer.. how your inner musical voice can come out without any effort (once dialed). You will get frustrated.. you will get pissed off that one day you think you sound great and the next you sound like crap... just stick with it !

Your words sent shivers down my spine, I can feel it. I've only ever played solid state amps and I hated the fact that my solid state rig held me back by masking my mistakes. Now even the lightest tap of the guitar's body sparks an oscillating beautiful feedback which I can actually control. I'm glad I'm in love with my Mesa, because she cost a pretty penny.

Through my solid state, high-fret leads sounded ear piercing and gave me headaches, but through the Mesa they sound delicate, pronounced, and anything but teeth gritting. My solid state has no presonality, no sag, and no dynamics in comparison to my Mesa.

Playing this Mesa makes me wish I could turn back time and never bought a solid state in the first place. It's like I was painting in black and white, but now I have to paint in color. Not quite relearning how to play, just learning how to play in this spectacular new dimension of tone.

Intimidating.

 

[clutch71]

The pedals I run, are through the front because for some reason my fx loop is wonky in the back. So I the fx loop setting knob at like the first one on the left of the dial, which I believe says Loop On?

No, currently in slot 1 is a JJ electronics one.


When I play In Channel 3 (2 is very similar to these)

I would have my
-prescence set at anywhere from 4 to 6
-volume set at no louder than 6
-gain set at about 6-7 (i have a tube screamer at a very low level for extra crunch, but unplugged it and went direct and still same thing)
-bass at 6
-mid usually at 2-4
-treble usually anywhere from 4 to 7

I should ask know because Ive forgot, the FX loop knobs at the back, I dont get. The level knob I usually turn up to 6 or so, and have the mix set around 80%, Ive noticed it makes a difference, but my FX loop isnt engaged? Or is it? Maybe this could be a problem too.

Try bypassing the loop completely and running without any pedals whatsoever. If this improves your tone then something is wrong somewhere in your chain (pedal running low on juice perhaps?).

I would try these settings:

(All settings are clockface in nature)
Presence: 11:30
Volume: 11
Gain: 1:30-2:00
Bass: 12:00
Mid: 11:30
Treble: 2:00

Bold power, tube rectifier

If you still think it's lacking tone, you probably have some sort of tube issue. What brand of tubes do you have as far as 6L6s?

I agree with Platy's setting advice. There definitely seems to be a tube issue of some point. If the 6 oclock position you are describing is all the way to the right, that is way cranked.

I had a JJ ECC83 in V-1 of a ROV and it sounded like gravel. I moved it to V-5 w GT's in V1-V5 and it was awesome.

 

[thinkdontpray]

Thanks for all the help guys, you've given me a bunch of things to look at here.


As far as the power tubes, they are Mesa 6L6's. And as far as my orginal tubes, they are long gone. Ive had this for about 2 years and never bothered keeping the old ones around.

Whats this about faulty caps? The head is probably no more than 4 years old, so would faulty caps be possible?

Also, I should clean my inputs, but whats this about draining the power supply capacitors?

The cab I am using is a 4x12 Mesa slant, which is a stereo cab, so I have two cords running from 4 ohms to 4 ohms in the back of the head. Thats right, correct? Ive been running it that way since the day I bought it.

Ive been looking at the idea of getting a Mark IV lately, so we'll see how things go. I am heading to our jam space tonight to try out all your ideas and just see what I can do.

Again, thanks guys. I'll be sure to let you know my results.

 

[SixVeeSix]

Also, I should clean my inputs, but whats this about draining the power supply capacitors?

The power supply caps store electrical power, they can shock you causing severe distress, death and everyone else will be able to see your skeleton. :twisted: :lol: Wearing shoes, take a screw driver or a test lead with two clips on it and connect to bare metal on the chassis first, then touch the terminals of the capacitor. This will drain all the stored potential to ground. That way if you accidently touch the wrong thing while cleaning your jacks, you won't get thrown across the room with your hair smoking!

 

[lailer75]

Also, I should clean my inputs, but whats this about draining the power supply capacitors?

The power supply caps store electrical power, they can shock you causing severe distress, death and everyone else will be able to see your skeleton. :twisted: :lol: Wearing shoes, take a screw driver or a test lead with two clips on it and connect to bare metal on the chassis first, then touch the terminals of the capacitor. This will drain all the stored potential to ground. That way if you accidently touch the wrong thing while cleaning your jacks, you won't get thrown across the room with your hair smoking!

i think i read that you can disconnect the power and turn the power on take off standby with a load and it will drain the caps

 

[thinkdontpray]

Haha sorry guys, when relaying what my settings were, I wrote them not in clock type fashion but rather just how it would appear from 1-10.

My settings in clock hand fashion in and around these,

Prescence - 10-12
Volume - 10-11
Gain - 12-2
Bass - 1
Mid - 9-10
Treble - 1-2

Sorry for any confusion guys.

 

[thinkdontpray]

The cab I am using is a 4x12 Mesa slant, which is a stereo cab, so I have two cords running from 4 ohms to 4 ohms in the back of the head. Thats right, correct? Ive been running it that way since the day I bought it.

Btw, this is correct right?

I still dont really understand ohms. Whats the saying again? Low into high will fly, high into low wont go. Right? Or do I have it backwards.

A run down would be appreciated someone, also, tell me if I am hooking my cab up properlly to my head.

 

[domct203]

The speaker load ( ohms ) should always be matched or higher than the amp.

If you are using both 4-ohm jacks (two cables) on the cabinet then the total load to the amp is only 2 ohms, lower than the 4 ohm tap on the amp and could be putting the amp at risk (if not already broken).

Why are you using two cables? A Mesa Recto 4X12 is 8 ohms mono, 4 ohms per side stereo. The Triple is a Mono amp. Just run one cable from the 8 ohm mono jack on the cabinet to the 8 ohm speaker jack on the amp.

Dom

 

[thinkdontpray]

Hmm, well I was originally running just one cord but found that I was only hearing two speakers work. I assumed that it was a stereo cab and needed two cables. I assumed wrong?

 

[Platypus]

Haha sorry guys, when relaying what my settings were, I wrote them not in clock type fashion but rather just how it would appear from 1-10.

My settings in clock hand fashion in and around these,

Prescence - 10-12
Volume - 10-11
Gain - 12-2
Bass - 1
Mid - 9-10
Treble - 1-2

Sorry for any confusion guys.

I would put up your mids a bit more though that's not really a cause for concern if this is where you had it dialed before.. you're going to get lost in the mix with mids that low.