Anyone have clips of MK IV with 6V6s???

The Boogie Board

Help Support The Boogie Board:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

GenoBluzGtr

Active member
Joined
Jul 14, 2005
Messages
34
Reaction score
0
Location
Maryland
Considering this swap out for smaller venues.

Wondering if there are any good clips out there?

Want to make sure there is still enough headroom for decent clean while giving good power tube saturation for thick OD at lower volumes.
 
How's the low end? Is there still plenty of head room for the clean?
 
I haven't had the chance to really crank it to see about the headroom. I would think that you could just turn the Gain down a bit from where you had it with 6L6's, and turn the Master for the channel up a little. This will change the place in the circuit where the most Gain is acquired.

For what it's worth, I know many people who use Vintage Fender Princeton Reverbs or Princetons with 2 6V6's and they have enough clean headroom to play a small clug type gig. With 4 6V6's you should theoretically have much more headroom.

You will, however notice less headroom than with the 6L6's.



As for Low End, I am using a THD 2x12 cab with Mojotone Greenback clones. The cab is closed back with a strip of open space down the center of the back. I can get some serious bass out of this cab.

I have an advantage of not having played the Mark IV much before I changed the tubes. I wanted more breakup at an earlier volume so that I could play it in smaller places. With the 6L6's, I couldn't dial in a convincing tone at any useable volume. It was just too loud. I really hated the stock Power Tubes too. They sounded a bit sterile.



Hope this helps, and it's not just the idiotic ramblings of a man who has yet to have his coffee this morning.
 
Thanks for the insight, Monsta-Tone.

I am aiming for the same thing. I can get decent tones from my MKIV for the smaller clubs, but I am always just a bit too loud, and the best tones I can't get without using an attenuator or blowing everyone off stage.

I prefer a "Fendery" type of power tube saturation and hope the 6V6s can deliver that. I am only mildly concerned with the Clean Headroom, since I do like just an edge of "dirt" on my cleans (Tweedy)...

If you don't mind, I do have a couple more questions for you...

Did you notice a significant reduction in volume where you got the tone you were looking for?

Did you experience the "flubby" or "farty" sound from channel 2 that some have reported as a "6V6 issue"?

Will the amp still "cut throught the mix" well enough?

I assume you run them only in "tweed power" setting, but do you also run only in Triode Mode??

Thanks in advance!
 
Bob at Eurotubes said that there would only be a -20db drop. There is a very noticeable drop in the Volume to Breakup ratio.

I am sure that when the amp is maxed out, the Volume difference won't be that noticeable. You'll still be deaf. :D :D :D



As for Channel 2, I haven't figured out how to make it sound the way I want, regardless of the Power Tubes in the amp. I almost had it with JJ E34L's for the Outer pair & Stock (Yellow) Mesa 6L6's in the middle. I had the switches set to Triode and Simul-class.

But, I wanted to lower the Volume to Breakup ratio of the amp, so I bought the 6V6's. I wish that I had the money to get another Mark IV so that I could run 1 with EL's, & 1 with 6V6's. I would have to sell my Rectoverb and my Soldano to afford it though, but that would almost be worth it.



I don't know if the amp will still "Cut-through" in the mix. I haven't jammed with it yet, our Bass player (isn't it always the Bass Player or the Drummer?) got a DUI and can't drive now.





You have to run the amp in "Tweed" power. Bob @ Eurotubes told me that if I install a Bias Pot and equalize the Grid resistors between the Inner & Outer pair, then you can use the "Full" powre setting.

Of course if I had 2 Mark IV's, I would just modify 1 of them to lower the "Full" power Voltage and install the Bias Pot. This way I could also use the so-called "Class-A" too.
 
I picked up a matched quad of Boogie 6V6s yesterday. Put them in last night and so far so good.

The cleans are better than I expected. Not quite the deep, throaty bell-chime cleans that I love (I think only good 6L6s give you that), but darned close. The headroom decrease isn't severe at all.

The Lead Channel got tighter, and more "classic rock"-like. I can get more distortion without getting "gritty", "spitty" or "rectum-frier" sounding. It sounds like warm, smooth, vintage overdrive to tight smooth distortion.

Rhythm 2 sounds pretty much the same, I always kept it set for that "clean amp cranked and just starting to saturate" tone and it still has that, just at lower volumes.

As for the volume, I think these tubes will allow me to get the sounds I love, at reasonable volumes and without using an attentuator.

I detected about a (subjective, not measured) 25-30% decrease in volume at the same settings, from the quad of 6L6s that I had in it.

Right now, my daughter is playing through it and has the Lead Channel set for some pretty heavy modern distortion. It still sounds good (even to my "vintage" ears).
 
While were on the 6v6 topic. I just bought a quad of EH's from Doug's tubes. Haven't got them in yet but the question is why do you have to run simuclass and not class a. I understand the tweed setting lowers the voltage to make the tubes last but why would it be a problem running only the two outer tubes which would give you even less volume for the bedroom? I trust Boogie to know what they are telling me but I'm just curious as to why.
 
I was wondering the same thing. I know I can run a 6V6 in my THD UniValve, with the only requirement being to switch to the "Lo V" setting. That's a pure Class A amp, but then again it was designed specifically to accomodate different tube types, so maybe it compensates for something that the Mark IV doesn't.

The Mark IV manual also recommends using the 4-ohm jack with an 8-ohm speaker "to reduce tube wear when using 6V6's." For Class A mode, it appears to allow either 6L6's or EL34's in the outboard positions, while I know 6L6's are not recommended for Class A mode on the Mark III. Is that a correct assumption?

In a related question, how would the perceived output compare with the use of 4 6V6's in Simul-Class vs. 2 EL34's or 6L6's in Class A, assuming the same speaker and jack impedence are used in all three cases?

I'm sure Boogiebabies or one of the other gurus here can set us straight.
 
I wonder the same thing, but it probably has something to do with the distribution of the input current.

Voltage drops across the components in a circuit determine the amount of current flow. The voltage coming in is reduced by using the "Tweed" setting but could still prove to be too much for the smaller tubes if the current is distributed across two tubes in stead of four. Just a speculation on my part (not familiar with the actual schematic) but sounds logical.

As for the output, normally in amps that use 6v6s, 2 tubes produces around 20 - 25 watts... so the quad would be 40 - 50 watts.

Another assumption would be that a 6v6 produces roughly half the power of a 6L6, so in Simul-Class, Pentode mode that is normally rated at 85 watts, the result should go to about 42.5 watts... in Triode mode, it is normally 70 watts (Simul Class) so it should be about 35 watts.

Granted, that in Class A, the wattage would realistically be dropped to 25 or 18 watts respectively, but if the circuit is designed such that the current flow is too high for the tubes they won't last more than a couple of gigs. That could get expensive!

I would like to get the real technical lowdown on the hows and whys and what the true output is with the 6V6s in the amp. Especially the rationale behind using the 4 ohm speaker jack.
 
Bump. Can any of you wise folks out there help us with the questions raised in the last 3 posts here?
 
Geno is probably right about the current in "Class A." It is probably way too high.



When I 1st put the 6V6's in, I forgot to change the switch to "Simul-Class." I ran it for about 10 minutes and nothing bad happened, but I bet if you ran it for a long period of time, your tubes would implode.

On the other hand, the amp sounded incredible in Class A with 6V6's in it. I'll have to open the amp up and take some voltage readings. I bet there's a way to lower the voltage even more so that the amp can run in "Class A."




The amp doesn't actually do real Class A. I have looked at the schematics and there is no way that the outer tubes are running in Class A. The THD is truly a Class A amp and it is Cathode Biased so that the Bias is automatically set when you change the tubes.





As for the 4 ohm vs the 8 ohm setting:
This has to do with the tube's internal impedance. The Output transformer hasn't changed. The amp has been designed around 6L6 tubes so it is looking to be run in a certain impedance setting.

When you change to 6V6's, they have approximately 1/2 of the impedance of 6L6's, so your amp isn't exactly running as efficiently as it can.

I had a THD Plexi combo for a while. There was a switch on the chassis that allowed you to change the overall characteristics of the amp. It was actually an Impedance switch. It allowed you to switch between 8 ohms (VERY LOUD & punchy) and 16 ohms (Very sweet and mellow).

THD (Andy Marshall) and Keving O'Connor (author of "The Ultimate Tone" series of books) state that if an amp has been designed properly, you can actually change the Impedance settings to change the overall characteristics of the amp.

I ran my Mark IV in 8 ohm and 4 ohm with the 6V6's in it to see what the difference was.
8 ohms: The amp had a noticably lower output Volume and was very smooth & silky.
4 ohms: The amp is very punchy and loud (even with the 6V6's) with lots of headroom.

FWIW: I ran my THD Combo in the 16 ohm setting most of the time to get more breakup and overdrive.




This info may or may not be as true as it could be. There is no "Definitive" Tube Amp Book that I know of that explains anything as well as it could be explained. I've read quite a few, and have been repairing and building amps for a few years now. I'm always learning new things and many of those things are contrary to what I have read in books.

Maybe someone with a bit more experience with Mesa amps will chime in.

A decent starting point as far as books go is "Inside Tube Amps" by Dan Torres. The guy is regarded as a bit of a hack, but he is very nice on the phone, as some have stated that he is rude. His book is informative and aimed at the "Layman." It's like "Tube Amps for Dummies."
 
Thanks for the info Monsta Tone, much appreciated.

But, you answered a couple of questions, but as is usually the case with these discussions, you have now sparked another one.

I am looking for "smooth and silky" with "noticeably lower output".

What is the danger of running the 6V6s in the 8 Ohm setting?

Like you, I briefly ran it this way (before I fully read the manual!) and it sounded much better to me in that setting.

The manual states that it is for "increased tube life". Will the tubes eat themselves in a matter of weeks at that rate? Or will they still last me a few months to a year while producing the tone I am looking for?

Also, no one has yet mentioned (and the manual doesn't address this aspect at all), should the amp be run in "Pentode" or "Triode" mode?

I am running it "Triode" simply because it seems most logical and gives me some of the reduced volume and spongy feel that I am after... but Pentode (even with 6V6s) adds punch, clarity, and sparkle and would be a nice option.
 
I think that the manual was written many years ago. This would mean that current production tubes (at that time) would not have been very robust.


I think it would be ok to run the amp on just 2 6V6, but I like my amp so I will have to open it up and see what the voltages are.

I will also email Michael Wolf about this and post my findings.
 
Monsta-Tone said:
I think that the manual was written many years ago. This would mean that current production tubes (at that time) would not have been very robust.


I think it would be ok to run the amp on just 2 6V6, but I like my amp so I will have to open it up and see what the voltages are.

I will also email Michael Wolf about this and post my findings.

Have you found anything on this yet?
 
I emailed Michael Wolfe about a week ago, but never got a reply.

I got this answer from the London Power website. Kevin O'Connor is the author of "The Ultimate Tone," series of books. The guy really knows his stuff. Unfortunately, most of what he says is contradictive and contraversial with what amp manufacturers say.

You can take it for whatever it's worth. The guys on the Fender forum www.fdp.com really speak highly of this guy.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: In a magazine Q-A, a player wanted to pull tubes to reduce power, but the "expert" said this would cause a meltdown of the remaining tubes. Of course, it was suggested that the expert's attenuator product was the preferred way to go. Is any of this true?

A: This is a person who should know better!

Removing tubes from a multi-tube fixed-bias output stage is never a problem. You can remove any number of tubes, and yes, that means you can take one tube out of a two-tube amp; one, two, or three out of a four tube stage, et cetera. This sounds heretical to techs stuck in the mire of convention, but it is something that has been known since tubes were invented.

The even-number tube extractions reduce power symmetrically. Neither the tubes nor the transformer will be damaged. Power will be reduced and so will frequency bandwidth - you will lose some bass and some treble. This is the point that switching the impedance selector to a less-than-load setting is supposed to correct, but it is completely subjective whether you should. The only 'should' of the matter, is do I like it this way, or do I like it that way?

In the uneven tube extractions, asymmetric power reduction occurs. Conventional thought says "the one tube on one side of the circuit will be trying to match the output of the two tubes on the other circuit half". This is wrong. The single tube can only produce so much power, and that's all it does. It doesn't melt down. The transformer does not blow up.

So, what's missing from conventional thought? The realization that tubes are "self-limiting power governors", which was stated in The Ultimate Tone (TUT), and explored in more detail in TUT2 and TUT3. TUT4 explores all of this in great detail. Our "expert" should get a copy.

In the end, you can pull tubes to reduce power, unless the amp is cathode biased - then you have to split the bias resistor. In any case, you do not have to worry about the impedance selector either.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: I thought impedance matching was critical. Some designers say the output transformer must be changed if you want to use different output tubes. That seems awfully expensive.

A: It is awfully expensive, and awful that such things would be suggested. There are two issues here, though; one is the notion of "impedance matching", and the other is simple design preference.

As stated throughout the TUT-series, speaker load impedances and reflected loads to the output tubes are all "nominal". An 8-ohm speaker may actually look like anything from 6-ohms to 100-ohms, depending on the frequency, since the reactive impedance changes with frequency. This means that the reflected load to the tubes is varying widely over the frequency range.

A nominal 8-ohm load may reflect 4k to the plates of the output tubes with a given transformer. The amp might be designed to produce its maximum power into this load, with a designed frequency response. This is the "power bandwidth". If we change the load to 16-ohms, the reflected load doubles and the frequency response shifts upward. We lose bass but have a brighter sound, and also lose power. If we change to a 4-ohm load, the reflected impedance drops to 2k, into which the tubes produce less power, and the bandwidth is again narrowed.

The reason for the confusion, I believe, is that people think tubes will try to behave the same way transistors do. Into half the load impedance, a transistor will try to deliver twice as much current. The device may overheat and destroy itself in the process. Tubes, however, simply don't behave like transistors.

The design issue for impedance matching comes into play when a designer takes the approach that "everything is critical". In some circuits, this may be the case. Tubes don't really care. There is no optimum load for a tube unless you are going for minimum THD, and this then depends upon the other operating conditions. For guitar, criticality is purely aesthetic. The designer says "this is good", "this is bad" and in that decree believes it to be so. He is correct in his subjective impression, but should not confuse the subjective and objective.

Design approaches are dealt with in TUT4.








I started running my amp in 8 ohms instead of the 4 ohm setting. We'll see how long the tubes last. I would only do this at the house, and run it in 8 for gigs (not gigging anymore) so that it would be loud enough.
 
I'm considering buying some JJ 6v6s for my mark iv. Everyone seems to enjoy them... does anyone have any problems with them?

Thanks.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top