Why did Mesa choose to EQ the Marks in the way they did?

[scelerat]

I've owned a few used Marks now... a Mark I, IIb, IIc+, and III.

All of them sound best when the bass EQ knob is set very low.

Does anyone use these amps with the bass set high? And how do you have the rest of the amp set? What kind of music/environment/application benefits from this?

Just wondering what led the decision to voice these amps in such a way that the bass response is so overwhelming that the stock recommendation is to set the bass knob very low.

Thanks, merely curious, if anyone has an idea.

 

[JMMP]

The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps, and the eq knobs come before most of the gain. The higher you run the gain, the lower the bass should be because high gain on bass heavy tones leads to the fartiness.

I have not owned any of the Marks you mentioned, but my previous Quad Preamp sounded great with the bass up and the deep switch when I set rhythm 1 (the IIC+ channel) to a clean sound. Other settings were moderate mids and treble (not too high or the clean wasn't clean). The same settings in lead 1 sounded bad.

 

[Markedman]

These amps have all that bass for single coil guitars playing clean jazz type music in a loud setting where high headroom is desired. These amps are all-inclusive and nondiscriminatory in there behavior and can do metal and country equally well. 8)

 

[scelerat]

These amps are all-inclusive and nondiscriminatory in there behavior and can do metal and country equally well. 8)

Truer words, etc. Confirmed for me every day I play.

 

[chipaudette]

The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps

This is the answer. The tone knobs (with treble pushed in, bass pulled out) are exactly the same as on a classic blackface/silverface Fender. Randall Smith (founder of Mesa Boogie) started out by modifying Fender amps. Then, when he made the the Mark I (simply known as the Boogie from Mesa), it was a souped-up Fender. The design of the tone knob circuitry followed Fender's design. Hence, the template for the whole rest of the Mark series was set.

Once Mesa started to increase the gain on the amps, they added the push and pull pots to modify the knob's EQ frequencies to make it friendlier for higher and higher gain, but the basic behavior was set from its Fender roots.

In British style amps (Marshall and derived amps such as Soldano and Mesa Rectifier), the early parts of the circuit (where the Mark series has its EQ knobs) are hard-wired to cut most of the bass and low-mids. Since pre-gain bass is bad, the relative lack of bass in Marshall-style amps made them sound too thin at low volumes, but made them sound awesome when turned up to the point of distortion. Hard rock!

By contrast, have you ever turned up the volume on a classic Fender amp (or reissue of a classic)? Have you ever turned it up to the point of getting a really distorted sound? On those classic-style amps, I think that it getting it to the point of heavy distortion makes it sounds really mushy and kinda bad. The primary cause for the mush and flab is that the guitar signal has too much bass, which makes the distortion get flatulent. It's the same kind of effect that you get with the lead channel on a Boogie if the bass knob is incorrectly turned up.

Guitars and guitar amps are full of historical "features" such as this. They're full of vestigial tailbones and appendices waiting to burst. If you're into circuits, they're fun to learn about.

Chip

 

[gts]

Always well informed interesting posts Chip!

 

[thunderkyss]

The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps

This is the answer. The tone knobs (with treble pushed in, bass pulled out) are exactly the same as on a classic blackface/silverface Fender. Randall Smith (founder of Mesa Boogie) started out by modifying Fender amps. Then, when he made the the Mark I (simply known as the Boogie from Mesa), it was a souped-up Fender. The design of the tone knob circuitry followed Fender's design. Hence, the template for the whole rest of the Mark series was set.

Once Mesa started to increase the gain on the amps, they added the push and pull pots to modify the knob's EQ frequencies to make it friendlier for higher and higher gain, but the basic behavior was set from its Fender roots.

In British style amps (Marshall and derived amps such as Soldano and Mesa Rectifier), the early parts of the circuit (where the Mark series has its EQ knobs) are hard-wired to cut most of the bass and low-mids. Since pre-gain bass is bad, the relative lack of bass in Marshall-style amps made them sound too thin at low volumes, but made them sound awesome when turned up to the point of distortion. Hard rock!

By contrast, have you ever turned up the volume on a classic Fender amp (or reissue of a classic)? Have you ever turned it up to the point of getting a really distorted sound? On those classic-style amps, I think that it getting it to the point of heavy distortion makes it sounds really mushy and kinda bad. The primary cause for the mush and flab is that the guitar signal has too much bass, which makes the distortion get flatulent. It's the same kind of effect that you get with the lead channel on a Boogie if the bass knob is incorrectly turned up.

Guitars and guitar amps are full of historical "features" such as this. They're full of vestigial tailbones and appendices waiting to burst. If you're into circuits, they're fun to learn about.

Chip

That makes so much sense... why haven't I seen that before.

 

[screamingdaisy]

That makes so much sense... why haven't I seen that before.

 

[Markedman]

My C++ is voiced differently enough that I can keep the rotary bass knob at 3-4 and the 80 hz fader up above the mid way point even when playing at a high volume with high gain and I do not get a flubby tone. I'm using a guitar that is very non resonant, Steinberger with a maple body and graphite neck, that has a strong pick up, Tom Anderson H3+, which makes for a tight tone. I have a minimal amount of pedals to suck tone out of my signal, something completely overlooked by some players when evaluating why they can't dial in a tight low end.

 

[dlpasco]

The marks are a direct descendent of Fender amps

This is the answer. The tone knobs (with treble pushed in, bass pulled out) are exactly the same as on a classic blackface/silverface Fender. Randall Smith (founder of Mesa Boogie) started out by modifying Fender amps. Then, when he made the the Mark I (simply known as the Boogie from Mesa), it was a souped-up Fender. The design of the tone knob circuitry followed Fender's design. Hence, the template for the whole rest of the Mark series was set.

Once Mesa started to increase the gain on the amps, they added the push and pull pots to modify the knob's EQ frequencies to make it friendlier for higher and higher gain, but the basic behavior was set from its Fender roots.

In British style amps (Marshall and derived amps such as Soldano and Mesa Rectifier), the early parts of the circuit (where the Mark series has its EQ knobs) are hard-wired to cut most of the bass and low-mids. Since pre-gain bass is bad, the relative lack of bass in Marshall-style amps made them sound too thin at low volumes, but made them sound awesome when turned up to the point of distortion. Hard rock!

By contrast, have you ever turned up the volume on a classic Fender amp (or reissue of a classic)? Have you ever turned it up to the point of getting a really distorted sound? On those classic-style amps, I think that it getting it to the point of heavy distortion makes it sounds really mushy and kinda bad. The primary cause for the mush and flab is that the guitar signal has too much bass, which makes the distortion get flatulent. It's the same kind of effect that you get with the lead channel on a Boogie if the bass knob is incorrectly turned up.

Guitars and guitar amps are full of historical "features" such as this. They're full of vestigial tailbones and appendices waiting to burst. If you're into circuits, they're fun to learn about.

Chip

I decided to give this setup a shot. Mind blown. This sounds amazing.

I put together a short video about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT-8cEYk8ek

 

[dlpasco]

Neat. On a hunch, I dug through the Mark V manual and found some updated docs about Fat mode. I swear this wasn't in here before:

FAT comes from the MARK I Input 2 (which is where our popular MARK V got it’s CLEAN voice as well) and is in every way opposite to the tight, bright voice of CLEAN.

This circuit pays homage to the early Black Face era circuits pioneered by Leo Fender and has become tightly interwoven into the fabric of classic Rock and Blues sounds.

Sweet shimmering highs that soar high enough for angels to hear, yet ring with bell-like authority for the rest of the band. Proud mids that are punchy and tight, yet are low enough to carry weight and add girth. Big, airy lows that start at the center of the earth and bring the big fundamental to get the party started in a hurry. These qualities produce an easy to play feel on the strings that invite you in...coaxing you to play your best and of course always...with soul.

FAT works great for chording and rhythmic work, but in contrast to the CLEAN mode, FAT sings with a huge, lush voice that lls-in a mix and casts a halo of harmonic richness around the entire instrument.

The sonic footprint is much wider and can carry a part such that it becomes the backbone of a song without any processing.

FAT is really useful in the studio for both clean and slightly driven parts, where you want to have a big sound and retain all your dynamic nuances. This is especially true in the 45 and 90 watt settings of the Power Select switch, where the power section can deliver dynamic differences effortlessly.

One important thing to keep in mind is that the lower centering of bass frequencies makes it possible to overload both the preamp and speakers quite easily by setting the BASS and MID Controls in their higher regions (above 11:30).

So the all-knobs-push-in-except-bass-shift, presence at zero mode on the old Marks corresponds to Fat Mode on the Mark V family?

Honestly, I'd believe it. The sound on my Mark III was yuuuuge.