Which tubes in which position for less gain and fizz?

[terribleboy]

Hi together,

I want to get more vintage (similar to marshall) from my Dual Rectifier (not reborn). I don't have the money for a new amp and want to keep the DR. So I thougt of changing the preamp tubes. Especially I want less gain and rid that "famous" fizz tone, I don't like. I'm already using JJ EL34 in the poweramp section. But preamp seems to be much more complicated...
I thougt of using 12AU7 maybe 12AT7 for all slots. But I read, that the position is the most important thing? Is there somebody who can tell me the sound differences when using the tubes in the different positions? Maybe you have other tips, too?
I also think of trying 2 JJ EL34 combined with 2 Yellow Jackets for the poweramp...

Thanks.

 

[b0nkersx]

If you want a sound similar to a Marshall, you're going to want to get a Marshall, Stiletto, Electra Dyne, or something similar. I know you don't want to hear this but it's the only realistic advice anybody can give you.

If you can sell your Rectifier for 700-1000, you can buy a used JCM800, and it would be 1000x better than trying to make a Recto sound like a Marshall.

In the event that you don't take what I've said to heart, if you really want less gain, why don't you just use the raw or pushed modes and turn down the gain? Lowering gain would remove your fizz problem as well, unless you use too much treble and presence.

That being said, the best kind of crunch tone I get on a Recto is using:
Vintage, Bold, Diode
Gain - 12:00-2:00
Bass - 12:00
Mid - 1:30
Treb - 2:00
Pres - 10:30
With lots of volume, a Les Paul Standard, and a bypassed loop.

Changing tubes might get you a little bit of the way there, but even with different tubes, a Rectifier will always be a Rectifier. In any case, I feel like using all 12AU7s or 12AT7s would produce extremely unfavorable results. Honestly you'd only be fooling yourself.

 

[YellowJacket]

Hi together,

I want to get more vintage (similar to marshall) from my Dual Rectifier (not reborn). I don't have the money for a new amp and want to keep the DR. So I thougt of changing the preamp tubes. Especially I want less gain and rid that "famous" fizz tone, I don't like. I'm already using JJ EL34 in the poweramp section. But preamp seems to be much more complicated...
I thougt of using 12AU7 maybe 12AT7 for all slots. But I read, that the position is the most important thing? Is there somebody who can tell me the sound differences when using the tubes in the different positions? Maybe you have other tips, too?
I also think of trying 2 JJ EL34 combined with 2 Yellow Jackets for the poweramp...

Thanks.

Well, I've been trying to do this subliminally with my Dual Rectifier for several years now and it does not work. About the closest I've found one can get is by running EL-34s (or Yellow Jackets) in the Dual Rectifier through a Marshall 4 x 12 with greenbacks in it. A great way to reduce gain is to roll back the volume knob on the guitar. This really gives a nice crunch. As people have said, you can use the Raw mode as well to get a less saturated crunch. (I don't have a 'raw' mode on my 2 channel Dual)

In my experience the Dual sounds best when you let it BE a dual. I wrote a whole long post about that not too long ago. If you want to go for that Korn, Soundgarden, Creed, Tool, etc kind of tone, then this amp will deliver it in spades. It is really designed for heavy music and does chords as wide as the 401 in Toronto.

I wouldn't run 2 yellow jackets with EL-34s. The bias is hotter with EL-34s and that can cause problems with the yellow jackets. When I use mine, I either use them with 6L6s or by themselves.

Here's a tip for the Yellow Jackets. If you are convinced you want to go this route, I suggest getting that marshall 100watt (greenback) 4 x 12. Next thing, just run yellow jackets, no other tubes. Either 2 or 4 will do, depending on what you need for power. Now, run your gain very low and crank the volume on the amp. This will push the power tubes into clipping and give you a much more old school kind of crunch. When using modern speakers it doesn't work, but it sounds pretty rad through greenbacks!


That being said, it seems smarter to unload the dual and get an Electradyne. If you can get $1,000 for your Dual, lets do some math here. Say $600 for a Marshall 4 x 12 with greenbacks. Now, factor in the $200 for yellow jackets.

So
$1,000
$600
+$200
=$1,800

Now how much is it for a new Electra Dyne? All the money you spend fiddling for something that might work when in the end, you can simply just get what you REALLY want. If you don't want an Electra Dyne or a Stiletto, a Marshall is a preferable option. In a way, it is great option to get a Marshall because you'll get the sound you want but there isn't the quality to back it up. At the end of the day, just realize that all mesa amps SOUND like mesa. I own a Mesa because I like the sound of it.

 

[espboogie123]

Yup, turning a dual rec into a marshall is just not gonna work with a tube change. A tube swap will change certain characteristics but not the complete amp sound. Your best bet would be getting that marshall or installing some nice winged C el34s. The winged C el34s bring a nice crunch character into play than other el34s. Other than that, the preamp tubes change little things rather than large things. Darker...brighter..etc.

 

[plapnab]

Go to Eurotubes.com. They have tube rekits that do a good job somewhat drastically altering your amps tone. I copy/pasted one of their tube kits I go that I think you might be interested in for the tone your chasing:

Mesa Dual Rec - High Gain Option with E34L's
Price: $124.00
Description: A quad of JJ E34L's for a crunchy, punchy tone from the power section. For the front end 3 hand picked high gain JJ ECC83S's for V1, V2, V3, a standard ECC83S for V4 and a balanced ECC83S for V5. Get a little Marshall on your Mesa with gain for miles!

I'm running this right now. You get something in between a Marshall and a Mesa. It's a lot more British sounding yet you keep the deepness and tone of a Mesa.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Go to Eurotubes.com. They have tube rekits that do a good job somewhat drastically altering your amps tone. I copy/pasted one of their tube kits I go that I think you might be interested in for the tone your chasing:

Mesa Dual Rec - High Gain Option with E34L's
Price: $124.00
Description: A quad of JJ E34L's for a crunchy, punchy tone from the power section. For the front end 3 hand picked high gain JJ ECC83S's for V1, V2, V3, a standard ECC83S for V4 and a balanced ECC83S for V5. Get a little Marshall on your Mesa with gain for miles!

I'm running this right now. You get something in between a Marshall and a Mesa. It's a lot more British sounding yet you keep the deepness and tone of a Mesa.

The irony is that Rectifier's come stock with JJ ECC83s and the JJ E34L is the least British sounding EL34 you can buy.... usually chosen by people who want to add a bit more midrange to their Recto while retaining most of it's bottom end.


Anyway, I'm with the others. The most Marshall a Recto will sound is with a set of bright EL34s (Winged =C= for instance) and a 4x12 loaded with Greenbacks.... and by the time you sank that kind of money trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole you might as well have spent that $$$ on an actual Marshall.

 

[KH Guitar Freak]

Try a Mesa SPAX7 preamp in V1, and maybe some Winged C 6L6s or EL34s in the power section...

 

[b0nkersx]

The irony is that Rectifier's come stock with JJ ECC83s

+1

the JJ E34L is the least British sounding EL34 you can buy.... usually chosen by people who want to add a bit more midrange to their Recto while retaining most of it's bottom end.

+10

Anyway, I'm with the others. The most Marshall a Recto will sound is with a set of bright EL34s (Winged =C= for instance) and a 4x12 loaded with Greenbacks.... and by the time you sank that kind of money trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole you might as well have spent that $$$ on an actual Marshall.

+10000000000000000

 

[YellowJacket]

Anyway, I'm with the others. The most Marshall a Recto will sound is with a set of bright EL34s (Winged =C= for instance) and a 4x12 loaded with Greenbacks.... and by the time you sank that kind of money trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole you might as well have spent that $$$ on an actual Marshall.

+10000000000000000

+9 x 10^1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Yes, you all need to have a discussion with my bank account about this! The golden rule of equipment:
COMPROMISE ON GEAR ALWAYS YIELDS MORE MONEY SPENT IN THE END!

Write that down somewhere.

Classic case of trying to dispell GAS with distractions:
Last spring I tried an Electra Dyne. I subsequently lost all voluntary bladder control!
GAS hit HARD.

I should have saved my $$$s, sold my Dual Rectifier, and acquired an Electra Dyne on the spot. But NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Instead I:
bought new electronics for my guitar.
$350
Built another 2 x 12.
$450
New tubes
$60
New speaker for Thiele (G12m Heritage)
$190

= $1050

Now, lets do some math here.
Sell Dual Rectifier for $1,000.

= $2050

Electra Dyne was going for $1,800 new Canadian funds. + 13% tax
= $2034

SEE THAT!?
Now what if I had bought used? Keep in mind I had a potential buyer lined up!

The heads typically go for $1,200 in american funds. These for barely used heads. Of course there is shipping and customs.

= Approx $1500 CAD funds to get the amp into the country. A $500 savings which covers the cost of the DIY cab!

=-/

Yes, my guitar is more awesome now but come on, what I REALLY wanted was the amp. I was trying not to spend money and in the end I spent MUCH MORE than I was otherwise willing to spend. The worst part is that I listen to clips of my guitar with the stock pickups and it sounded fine. I could have simply upgraded the electronics alone and it would have made a suitable difference.

So the moral of the story is, GET YOURSELF A FREAKING MARSHALL!! NOW!!

DOO EEET

 

[sk8erps]

Wanna trade amps? lol I have a thread about my amp not sounding right. I have a solo 50 that sounds like a Marshall right now. It's going to the shop next week to get fixed. I am running an old 1975 Marshall with original cremebacks and this thing sounds great for a Marshall but it's a Mesa and I want it to sound like a Mesa. My amp took a hit so maybe hit yours hard and it will sound like a Marshall like mine j/k :lol:

 

[YellowJacket]

Wanna trade amps? lol I have a thread about my amp not sounding right. I have a solo 50 that sounds like a Marshall right now. It's going to the shop next week to get fixed. I am running an old 1975 Marshall with original cremebacks and this thing sounds great for a Marshall but it's a Mesa and I want it to sound like a Mesa. My amp took a hit so maybe hit yours hard and it will sound like a Marshall like mine j/k :lol:

Get thee a Mesa 4 x 12. The standard rectocab is has more emphasis on highs and lows while the Stiletto cab emphasizes mids more. I think that the v30 or a combination of a v30 and c90 is an integral part of that 'mesa' sound.

 

[Blaklynx]

This may sound rather simplistic, but why not use the clean 'pushed mode'? I realise that you can't use it at gig if you need the clean 'clean mode' but if you don't use the clean 'clean mode' what's stopping you?

The pushed mode IS your crunch! Whack a good OD pedal in front and it's all there. I ran MI Audio's Tubezone and Crunchbox pedals (cascaded) and the tone was super impressive.

If you use the clean mode, then yeah, your in a bit of a spot.

You can try a 5751 tube in V1 (30% less gain than a 12AX7) and use the raw mode. Place an EQ in the loop to boost the mids and highs as the raw mode is a little dark. On the amp, turn the gain down to around 10oclock, treble around 9~9.30oclock, mids around 10~1oclock (depends how you want the 'attack' and the feel of the amp to be), bass around 10oclock, presence at or near zero. As mentioned, use the EQ to make adjustments to the final tone. Turn up the channel volume and the master out. You don't want a lot of preamp gain and the bass side of things can't be too heavy, think ACDC. You want a good well rounded tone, not too much bite. If you've been playing a lot of heavy music, these settings may sound odd to you. Crunch tone is not a chugga-chugga-palm mute tone, think ACDC!

Also, try a Sovtek 12AX7 LPS in the PI slot. This is an excellent tube. Alternatively, try a 12AT7.

To smooth out the tone a little read my post here (3rd one): http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=52293

You may want to read this, too, and follow the links as well http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=49265

See how you go. Good luck.