Which 2x12 cab for V25 (and maybe V)

[Dreamtheaterrules]

I know this has been done before, but I'm pretty much ready to order. I want a new 2x12 for my V25, and since it appears to be a dangerous gateway drug, for the very strong possibility that I'll get a big V sometime soon.

My dealer has the horizontal in stock, and of course would rather sell that one out of stock than order me a new one. But... 1) I REALLY prefer the form factor and look of the vertical, and 2) it would allow me the possibility of choosing between the stock V30s or Fillmores. The one thing I don't know is, the differences in the sound of the cabs.

I have always felt the 1x12 Recto sounds a bit small with my Mini and my V25, and plugging in a second cab always made it much bigger. I was initially preparing to by a Mark V and while I was getting the money together to do so, the V25 came out. While it is a killer amp, it's making me want even more some of the things it doesn't have (Tweed, Mark I, variac, etc,) on top of the things I already have a love.

So I need 2x for the V25 and maybe soon a big Mark V. Form factor is a big win for the vertical, so tone wise, which one, which speakers, and why?

 

[elvis]

I have both horizontal and vertical recto 2x12 cabs.

Out in front, they sound a lot alike. Standing close, the horizontal sounds like it has much more lows because it is facing your legs, not your ears.

To me the differences are that the horizontal has a bit more lows because it couples more to the floor. The vertical sounds a bit bigger because it is, so you hear that extra air volume.

The vertical tends to sound louder and more mid-range heavy because the top speaker points at your ears.

The Mark V fits very nicely on the vertical 2x12.

The vertical is like 2/3 the size of a 4x12, and is bigger and heavier than the horizontal. Tougher to fit in the car. The vertical takes less floor space that the horizontal, which is nice in tight gig or rehearsal spaces.

It's difficult to recommend speakers because they are very much personal choice and also it depends on the music you want to play. In short:

V30 are popular because they break up easily and add some scratchy mids to your tone. They also feel like they have more sustain because of the extra harmonic content. They can sound like an ice-pick with the mid-peak.

C90 are more scooped with WAY more low-end, so they sound bigger and heavier. They can also sound a bit like you've thrown a blanket over the cab. They don't break up like a V30, so they are a bit Hi-Fi sounding and feel like you have to put a bit more effort in your playing since they are very clear without extra compression. They sound amazing with the clean channel.

To me the Fillmores sound very much like V30.

Some people mix speakers as well, with C90 + V30 being popular.

At the moment I am playing a Royal Atlantic, which tends towards high mids, so I have been taking the V30s out of my cabs and trying other speakers. Options include:

Classic Lead 80: Kind of like a C90 but with loose lows and more breakup.

G12H75 Creamback: Higher-power Greenback with a lot of the scratchy, grindy mids. A lot of the "brown" sound tone. Not like V30 or C90.

G12K85: Essentially a C90 but with a bit lighter cone, so a little less lows and a bit more mids. Good balance, though.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Thanks for the detailed response, Elvis. I really appreciate it. I'm thinking vertical is best for my needs, my room, etc. One of the things I wondered about was a V30 or Fillmore on top, C90 on bottom mix, instead of just ordering 1 type of speaker in the cab. (Or maybe just replacing the bottom speaker with an EVM 12L).

I sure wish I could HEAR that setup before ordering it. But you know how that goes...

 

[ryjan]

The vertical and horizontal 2x12's will pretty much sound identical at more that 12 feet away. Up close the difference you hear is your ear position relative to the speaker.
I chose the vertical mostly because I like to have the amp on the cab and I don't have to bend over to adjust anything. It also looks really cool and the slant design seems to disperse the sound a bit more than if both speakers were aimed at the same spot.

 

[wave_of]

I've heard that vertically stacked speakers have better sound dispersion relative to our plane of hearing (which is horizontal because of the placement of our ears on our head). There is supposedly less cancellation of frequencies projected by the speakers like that (again, relative to our plane of hearing) and so a wider sweet spot for listening. Of course, you could get a horizontal cab and just tip it sideways! That's what I do. Then you're safe either way (although you can tip a vertical cab sideways too!).

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Elvis,

One more question, since I think you have tried all or most of this. When I talked to my friend who is my Mesa dealer, he called his Mesa rep and told him what I was looking at. The rep said he thought the best thing for me would be a Thiele/C90 setup. He said that first, this would be a great, big sounding small rig with the V25 when I only wanted to take one cab, but also would mate very well with the V30/Mini Rec cab I have with both the V25 and the possible big V in the future.

I still haven't played any cab with a C90 so I only have word of mouth. I did ask him about a 2x12 veritical with V30 on top, C90 on bottom.

He said the rep mentioned that the C90 Thiele was his favorite single speaker/cab combo with the V25 and he said he even added that this is the speaker that comes in the full size V combo because they like it so well with the big V.

Your thoughts on this vs. the 2x12 vertical?

 

[screamingdaisy]

I have the classic Boogie Mini-Stack, which is the ported (Thiele) bottom and open back top. It's a cool rig that sounds good and is flexible for small gigs with a lot of sound dispersion.

However, my Mark V is typically plugged into a Recto 2x12 because (IMO) it's better for hard-rock and metal.

If it were me I'd get 2x12 with V30s.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Thanks for your opinions. That's what I'm looking for. Thoughts on how the mix and match cabs stack up vs. the 2x.

I had the Mini Rec cab (which I think sounds good, but not big) on top of a 1x12 Avatar/V30 semi open back cab. This setup sounds much bigger and more bottom. In fact, before I got the Mini Rec 1x, that Avatar sounded better (IMO) than the Mini Rec cab by itself, and my V30 closed back Avatar cab was better still, (even though I like the Mesa V30 better than the stock one). It was bigger, more bass (much deeper cab). I mention this because, the rep said the reason he recommended adding the C90/Thiele was that he really liked it by itself, but stacked with what I have it would really fill out the bottom end and make it sound much bigger. Hence my interest in that setup. That said, I know the 2x cabs sound much bigger as I compared the 1x to the 2x horizontal in the store and the 2x was much bigger sounding.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I'll be upfront by stating that I'm biased. I don't particularly like the Thiele 1x12. Up close it sounds weird due to the sound emanating from both the speaker and the port. If you can put some distance between you and it (20-30 or more feet) the sound coalesces and it sounds great... but up close it's not my ideal sound so it's my least used cab.

I'm also not a big fan of MC90s. They're big and full but lack the punch of a V30. I've pulled them out of my 1x12 cabs and replaced them with Mesa V30s. They're still not as good as the Recto 2x12 (which produces more bottom end than the pair of 1x12s if that's your concern), but they're useful when I need something portable and/or with good sound dispersion.

For what it's worth, Petrucci is/was running a Mini-Recto 1x12 on top of a 1x12 Recto Standard cab. If what you want is the mini-stack look then that's the route I would go, but truthfully I think if you could try all this stuff before hand you'd go home with the Recto 2x12.

http://www.mesaboogie.com/cabinets--simulators/guitar-cabinets--simulators/rectifier-series/1x12-recto.html

 

[jb's 52]

However, my Mark V is typically plugged into a Recto 2x12 because (IMO) it's better for hard-rock and metal.

Mine too...

I use to love the C90 1x12 with a V30 1x12 as well, but having two V90s in a recto gives more bottom than the C90 in a 1x12.
Plus, I don't think it's sacrificing the crunch at all. I admit tho, I have been turning the horizontal to vertical more times than not.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Mine too...

I use to love the C90 1x12 with a V30 1x12 as well, but having two V90s in a recto gives more bottom than the C90 in a 1x12.
Plus, I don't think it's sacrificing the crunch at all. I admit tho, I have been turning the horizontal to vertical more times than not.

I leave the front casters on so that the horizontal cab tilts back.

 

[elvis]

I never thought of that. Brilliant!

 

[jb's 52]

Mine too...

I use to love the C90 1x12 with a V30 1x12 as well, but having two V90s in a recto gives more bottom than the C90 in a 1x12.
Plus, I don't think it's sacrificing the crunch at all. I admit tho, I have been turning the horizontal to vertical more times than not.

I leave the front casters on so that the horizontal cab tilts back.

Where do ya put the head when ya do this?

 

[screamingdaisy]

Where do ya put the head when ya do this?

On the cab.

When I first started doing it I was going to get a Fender piggyback kit to bolt it down, but in all the years I've been doing it the amp has never slid so I've never bothered.

Now that I've said that out loud it'll probably bail the next time I do it...

 

[screamingdaisy]

On a different note, between this thread and Elvis' thread Mark V/Speakers thread I got curious and decided to do some speaker swapping today. I'm mostly posting this because I've said some bad things about both the MC90 and Thiele (23" Wide Body, Front Ported) over the years and I'm about to take some (but not all) of it back.

Widebody Front Ported/Widebody Open Back.

V30/G12M-25 - Started with this setup. When used together they're nothing too sh*t hot. They didn't end up this way because I wanted that mix... I was doing different things with each cab at the time. FWIW, the V30 probably isn't a good fit for the ported cab.

MC90/G12M-25 - Put an MC90 back in the thiele. It was an improvement over the V30. Nice top and bottom and even across the midrange. What I like about it (the MC90) is the top end... it's brighter than the V30, but not piercing, and it gives this wicked chirp when soloing on the high notes that remind me of some pretty classic guitar leads. As a pair they were pretty meh. Neither really reinforced the other's weak points and I felt they kind of detracted from each other.

MC90/V30 - This was a pretty good pair. The V30's mids sits right in the pocket created by the MC90, while the V30s rolled off top and bottom end give the MC90 room without muddying things up. It's pretty obvious the front ported cab is tuned for the MC90. It's been three or four years since I took the MC90 out of this cab and it was quite enlightening how good it sounded now that it's back in this cab.

If I have one complaint about this setup it's the way it behaves with channel switching. When switching channels on the amp there's generally a mid shift that goes with it, so while one channel will be very V30 dominant another will be MC90 dominant. This could cause problems when only one speaker is mic'd up.

MC90/MC90 - This was my favourite pair. The open back cab gives the speaker a broader midrange while rolling off the bottom and top end, while the closed back/front ported cab relaxes the mids and makes the upper mids/treble more immediate while beefing up the bottom end.

Disclaimer 1 - I tend to prefer using a single speaker type as I find it's typically clearer than mixing speakers. Mixing is cool because it lets you thicken things up, and if you have a V30 1x12 that you're looking to thicken up that MC90/Front Ported cab will do the trick. Long story short, just because I favour single speaker types doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone.

The mid shifting the speaker dominance thing also gets on my nerves because I prefer a certain consistency of tone as I switch between channels.

Disclaimer 2 - My problem with the front ported cab is the front port. When pounding out palm muted riffs I kept getting a woof out of the port that reminds me of a '90s car stereo. With straight up rock it's not a big deal and the thickening is nice, but the second I try to go chug, chug, chug it's really in my face. In the end I wound up throwing a towel over the ported side of the cab and that cleaned up the bottom end without reducing it too much.

Disclaimer 3 - While I really like the Mini-Stack of Doom setup and the MC90 is much better than I remember it being... the Recto 2x12 is still a better cab for modern hard rock/metal IMO.

FWIW-YMMV.

 

[pokerrules47]

Before I purchased my V25, I had a Roadster and a H&K Tubemeister 18. I got tired of lugging around a 2x12 so I built a 1x12, oversized, and put an eminence Texas Heat 8ohm in it. The Texas Heat can handle 150w and I thought it would be a great match for the Roadster. The combination of the warmth of the speaker and the oversized cab I built was a winner. The roadster sounded great. In fact, I stopped using my 2x12 altogether. I found, that I was more often going to the Tubemeister as it was light and easy to transport. I wasn't gigging a lot at the time and I got used to the light load. My Roadster became pretty much dormant.

A couple of years flew by and the prospect of gigging again surfaced, I found myself dreading taking the Roadster out. I had pruned down my rig to work perfectly with the TM and had abandoned my Midi control rig. One day, I walked into the music store and inquired if anyone had tried the new V25. The guy behind the counter said they had JUST gotten the first one in and it was still in the box. He said he'd gladly pull it out if I wanted to try it. I used a H&K 2x12 with v30s in it. I fell in LOVE. I sold the Roadster and bought the V25. I had fully intended on using my 1x12 with it, but, as luck would have it, they had a mini recto cab that was scratch and dent, so I scooped it up too.

I played the mini recto (v30) for about a week. I wasn't that happy with it, very bright and harsh sounding, but I gave it a chance because it's, for all intents and purposes, a new cab and needed breaking in. I flipped back and forth between the two 1x12's trying to decide which one I liked better. My home made cab was too dark, making me have to boost the mids too much. The recto was too bright. Then I ran them together and lightning struck. Nice and full, tons of cut.... it's my preferred configuration.

That being said, when I am in a situation to only take one cab, it is the mini recto one. It does a better job of cutting through in a band situation, plus I can turn down the mids to cut the amount of hiss the v25 has when you push the midrange past noon.

I LOVE the 2 1x12 configuration as opposed to the 2x12 config. It's so much easier to manage plus you have some options when it comes to speaker placement and total footprint. With the mini recto on top, I can hear myself so clearly.

Here's an image from our latest gig.