wattage question for the guru's

[filteredsoul]

I've seen a trend where guitar players are moving toward low wattage amps so they can get that tube breakup and sound at low volumes. Are the days of the 100 watt amp cranked to 11 going away? I know with my situation I can't play my dual recto like that. I'm seeing companies like Stulce amps becoming super popular now. Their main product is a 10 watt tube combo. I played at a place that had one, but I opted to use my Mesa instead. Now I wish I would've just to see the difference. My 2x12 is always facing backstage with a mic in front of it anyway, so why not run a 10 watt amp hot and at least have a little stage volume?
My main question then, is this... Hypothetically, could Mesa build a 10 watt version of a Dual Recto that could be run hot to get that tube tone? I know lots of the beef comes from the sheer volume and power, but could that be compensated by the size/type of cabinet?
I'd love a low-watt (or lower volume) solution that would still give me what I bought my 100 watt amp for. -Probably a pipe dream, but I'm curious as to what the experts say.

 

[Micah]

The problem that you would run into with a lower wattage power amp is that in order to push bottom end you need wattage. Wattage isnt volume. Wattage is horse-power. Wattage is to volume what hosepower is to mph. The more wattage or power you have, the more potential you have to hear your bottom end. You might see a few more DB's but not much. Were talking going from a 100 watt dual to a 150 watt triple rectifier your only going to see an actual volume increase of about 6 db @ maximum volume output. Thats not much to your ear. I had a 22 watt Subway Rocket and that sucker was piercing loud. I couldnt hardly play above 3 on the stage without getting complaints. Loud is loud, but the hugeness of your sound depends on wattage. The Dual Rectifier seems to be the best of both worlds for most players, which is why its probably the best selling of the rectifier series. I personally prefer my triple due to the ability I have to push that low end and get an absoloutly huge sound on stage--not that you cant get that with a single or dual but I feel it more on stage naturaly. I dont think what you want is lower wattage with the rectifier. The idea of the amp is to push as much clean bottom end into your overdriven sound as possible without getting flabby or muddy. The lower in wattage that you go with this style of amp, the quicker your bottom end will mud out. Which im sure is why Mesa made the smallest rectifier series power amp 50 watts, to keep that bottom end cleaner for longer. If you are having trouble getting a hotter sounding tone @ a reasonable volume, try pegging the presence all of the way up and dial out the nasties with your tone controls. Then try expirimenting with your preamp volume or channel master(not gain) in relationship to your volume or Output of the amp. This mixture I am convinced has everything to do with the ability of the amp to sing and sustain and feed-back like a hot amp should. The beauty of the rectifier is that it has so much gain in the front end that you dont have to have as much power amp gain or volume to get it to sing. I like to set my triple sometimes to 10 oclock on the Channel Master (chanels 2 and 3) and 10 oclock on the Output. This being said my preamp gain is @ 2:30 oclock to push it to feed-back and sustain while enhancing the low mids for that chunk you want. Hope this helps! :wink:

 

[lennartbar]

what you could do is buying a 2:20 and get the signal from your recti from the send into the input of the poweramp...
that way you would have like a hot power amp at "lower" volume

 

[Shep]

you could sell your dual and buy a dual recording amp and a 20 watt power amp..but as wat micah said you need the horse power to push the bottom end..

 

[filteredsoul]

Thanks for the mph/horsepower analogy. I understand that.
Would you say that low watt tube amps have their place with folks who don't specialize in playing metal? -or don't need the hugely overdriven low end?

Say I normally use my DR's clean channel and use a pedalboard for my overdrive/distortion/effects. Would I be a prime candidate for one of these lower watt amps? I love the power of my DR... don't get me wrong. I get a punchy, tight clean channel, and my pedals sound incredible thru it. I just wonder... if a 20 watt subway rocket is still way too loud on stage, what would this new wave of amps really accomplish?

 

[Micah]

Thanks for the mph/horsepower analogy. I understand that.
Would you say that low watt tube amps have their place with folks who don't specialize in playing metal? -or don't need the hugely overdriven low end?

Say I normally use my DR's clean channel and use a pedalboard for my overdrive/distortion/effects. Would I be a prime candidate for one of these lower watt amps? I love the power of my DR... don't get me wrong. I get a punchy, tight clean channel, and my pedals sound incredible thru it. I just wonder... if a 20 watt subway rocket is still way too loud on stage, what would this new wave of amps really accomplish?

Lower wattage amps definatly have there place for people that like a more vintage-tone. A Vox AC30 comes to mind where you would crank the 30 watt class A power-amp into overdrive to create your gain. Of course you will notice that as you crank these lower wattage amps up your bottom end will start to depleate thus leaving you with a harmonicly rich mid-range to give you medium break-up and a nice jangle that can be cleaned up by reducing the volume on your guitar for your cleans. Its the great-old vintage theology, Beatles, Stones, AC/DC, The Who, Frampton..... It works great for that! I even adapt that principle to a certain extent--I rarely use the clean channel. I would say that if you arent really into the gain channels' tone trade the Dual in for a Mark IV. Some of the best cleans Ive ever heard--extreamly Fender-esque!! Its only 85 watts which can be switched down to 15 watts of class A power. Also the head is allot smaller than your Dual and might weigh less. Overall it works really well with pedals and I think it will match your needs up allot better. :wink:

 

[Janglin_Jack]

There are experts that can answer the wattage question better, but there is some forumula that indicates that a doubling of power yeilds 3db. So to get an additional 3db in volume, you would have to go from a 50watt head to 100watt. To get another 3db, you would have to double again to 200watts.

Speaker sensitivity is also part of this, so if you had a speaker with 97db sensitivity and installed ones with 100db sensitivity, you in effect will get more volume like if you left the speakers alone and got a more powerful amp, (50watt to 100watt).

Anyhow, a 50 or 100watt head with no master volume would have to be run at earsplitting levels to get overdrive, (unless you use an attenuator).

All things equal, a 100watt amp would give you more low end and a tighter response. I think a low wattage amp could be good if mic'ed, but I am not sure how these guys get a good clean sound with such a small amp. If you don't want a clean sound, then yes, a good low wattage amp would be a good way to go.

Jack

 

[Mr_You]

Two things:

- Paragraphs
- Power Attenuation

 

[MesaDCLP]

2 el84's will produce over 20 watts in an A/B class. I've not seen any A/B el84 amps. Someone got a link?

On the other hand, you could run yellowjackets and the like to get the wattage down, but that's class A.

I love Mesa, but check out samamp.com and see if this is what you are looking for. They make a class A/B amp that can produce 90 watts and you can cut it down to 5 watts and many variables inbetween?!!! WOW.

The more you cut in watts the more bulbs light up.

I haven't heard one yet, but will soon. I have to drive four hours to check it out. The 90 could be the trick and it lights up too!! ...sorry but that is cool.

+1 Recto-verb series III
+1 Paragraphs

 

[Brewski]

I think that this thread shows that there are guys out there that would like something like a MK4 or DR that is switchable down to lower wattages. I have my RK1 and F-50, and like them each a lot. But I also have a little Reverend amp, which is a little gem that is switchable between 5 and 15 watts. It's goes from clean to early VH tones. I like the convenience of being able to plug and play at home without taking off the roof, and have the portability. The RK stays at our practice area, as it would be too much hassle to move it back and forth.

As mentioned above, you don't have the bottom end of a 100 watt amp, but then again, for home use, practice, or intimate gig situations, you don't necessarily need it. And when it comes time to put it back in the truck, that little combo only weighs 22 lbs. total, which is 2/3's the weight of a Blues Jr. It uses a Jensen 10-100 speaker. Too bad they don't make them anymore.

Maybe Mesa will have a few surprises for us. They must see how fast the LSS's go on e-bay and the prices that they bring. A small recto would be cool or add that 3rd switch position for a 5 watt MK4, and it might start a trend or perpetuate a trend that was already started.

 

[filteredsoul]

I feel like the Fonz when he needed to say he was wronnnn... wro.... wrong.
-not that I feel that I was wrong, but perhaps there would be a better suited amp for me. Here's the hard part. I hear tones on recordings that I love. I know they're Mesa's too. The problem, is that while I love those tones, I don't play that kind of music live. For me, probably any amp set to clean with a tube screamer mildly warm would do. Why do I have a Dual Rec if that's all I do? I guess for the potential of other tones. I know it's WAY overkill, but also way fun to play with. I understand a 20 watt dual rec wouldn't be a "Dual Rec" the way people know them and love them. Perhaps mesa will jump on the low watt bandwagon and suprise us like you said.

 

[Brewski]

Yeah, I hear ya. And I'm not saying replace the DR or any other amp, but add another amp or line of amps that might fit in with players who would like something that they can at least somewhat crank at home, or use in a recording situation. It could also benefit those who are playing in a small area, like a coffee shop gig or similar, or those who are desperately trying to fit their gear into a sub compact compact vehicle.

It'd be an urban compact assault amp.

 

[Janglin_Jack]

Here's the hard part. I hear tones on recordings that I love. I know they're Mesa's too. The problem, is that while I love those tones, I don't play that kind of music live.

Recording and live and two different things. Many record with things like a Tweed Fender Deluxe, but you can't really use that live, unless you mic it, etc.

MarkIV are power switchable.

Jack

 

[parsky1]

6db-10db is usually considered double the volume. -3db is considered half the power, -6db is considered 1/4 the power and half the volume.

Going to from 50 to 100 watts in only going to be about 2-3db increase in volume. To Double the volume of a 50 watt amp you need to at least be at 200 watts to get +6db of volume.

Therefore the statement "Were talking going from a 100 watt dual to a 150 watt triple rectifier your only going to see an actual volume increase of about 6 db @ maximum volume output. Thats not much to your ear" is false. Going from a 100 watt to a 150 watt amp is not even going to be 1db increase in volume(remember we are talking about decibels which is logrithmic, meaning the increase in volume gets smaller and smaller as wattage increases). BTW a 6db increase in volume is quite noticeable, while 1db is barely the minimum increase the human ear can detect.

 

[siggy14]

Here is a good write up on alot of myths. Explains the difference in power.

http://www.guitarnuts.com/amps/myths.php