Was looking at Celesiton Web and found this. 150W Red back

[xdg999]

The Redback has relaxed treble according to Celestion. It's a perfect match for my DR c+, which is a really bright amp. Mike B. suggested I get the bright mod done on the Mark IIc DRG I just sent to Mesa for the c+ upgrade. I'm looking for a vintage Mesa thiele cab so I can try it with the Redback.

Edit: I got the upgraded DRG back a couple of weeks ago. I was wondering why it sounded brighter so I called Mike B. yesterday to ask about the bright mod. The bright mod actually makes it brighter like the later production Simul Class c+'s. What Mike B. was suggesting was to reduce the brightness like the 100 watt c+'s. Something got lost in translation.

 

[bandit2013]

The speaker is getting brighter the more I play though it. It sounds amazing on the clean channel, very bright but not blistering. Perfect for acoustic saddles and piezo bridges. I have been playing though Mark I mode for a while and then back to the clean. Also I will migrate to CH3 for a while and then back to the clean channel. It does have a similar tone to the Celestion Cream 90W Alnico (before I killed it with the JP, oops). May also put V4 back to stock just for kicks as I am using the saturation mod at the moment.

for some reason this may be ideal for a 412 as the quad of V30 tends to be very bright in that format. I will wait and see how things pan out with the Mark V combo first. Very tempted to drive it with my other amps too just to get an idea how it will respond to the higher wattage amps.

 

[bandit2013]

I tried it. well... I thought it was broken in to some extent. If I only played on the clean channel and for those who do the Redback is superb for that task. I am still overwhelmed how incredible is sounds for clean, blues (even with a bit of dirt in the mx). It is also perfect for piezo pickups just as much as it is for single coil and humbuckers. However I do not spend all of my time on the clean channel but that is what I wanted to do with the Redback in the Mark V combo. CH3 was okay but I have heard it sound way better, forget Mark I voice with the Redback as the speaker just seems too dark when the gain goes up. Crunch was not very great either as the speaker would stumble and completely drop the top end. This was the huge issue I had with the Jensen Jet Blackbird Alnico as the suspension is way too stiff. The Celestion Crème sounded way better but had more of a vintage tone. CH3 with the Redback is when the blanket came out and smothered the front of the amp. Bottom end was there and soft, the treble was struggling and the mids were present but not appealing. Perhaps this speaker is not suited for a combo amp. Extreme mode was the only voice on CH3 I where I could manage to hear some Mark tones. It did not matter how loud I played it either. Do not cast this one into stone as I may try to break it in with a different source. The Black bird took a long time to actually get some great sounds with a distorted guitar signal. Just when it was sounding great I swapped in an EV and went back to the Black bird only to pop a screw thought the webbing. It is still in service today as I put it in my Carvin V3MC. The Celestion Crème on CH3 is where it shined the best. I also had to take some time to break that one in too but out of the box experience the speaker sounded way better than most on all channels.

Before I removed the Redback from the cabinet. Why not run the JP-2C through it? Well I got the same result. I will admit that this made me appreciate the clean channel on the Mark V a bit more. JP-2C was okay with the Redback. Mark V clean was tops. What is in the Mark V now you may ask? I had considered being lazy and leave the Redback in there. Nope, I had to decide what to go for, EV, Crème (think it is dead...) heck I will just install the MC90 again. The MC90 is not bad for the clean channel. It is better than most but will not touch the tonal character of the Redback. It will however surpass the redback on all the other channels. I guess I am done following the speaker balloon. I will stick with the black shadow, besides it blends quite well with the V30 cabs so win-win for keeping things stock.

 

[bandit2013]

I did not think I was done with this speaker. However I would not recommend it to be a primary speaker such as in a combo amp unless it was for an acoustic guitar amp or perhaps something that is basically a clean channel amp. Still I would rate the clean channel character tops with this speaker but its characteristic when the distortion levels rise is lack of the top end. In addition to break-in period, I believe this one will take a considerable amount of time and once it is broken in it may very well be a good speaker for a combo amp. Since I opted to go back to the Celestion Crème 90W Alnico that I thought was toast actually was not. This one too has not been fully broken in but has way more top end chime than the Redback. And this 90W gem rips the grind quite well and in fact I think it sounds better than the EV black label speaker but not as loud. Still the Crème has a vintage vibe to it when running the clean channel as you can hear the tonal difference. Since I have a 1x12 extension cab that is a bit on the deep end (it is about the same dimensions as the Mesa wide body 1x12 except it is 14 inches deep compared to 11.25 inches. Originally it was a closed back but I found the bottom end suffered a bit so I modified the back panel. Just about any speaker I place inside it definitely has a deeper tone to it). I had an EV black label speaker mounted in the 1x12 which was about as good as it get with that cabinet. I tried it with the Mark V combo with the Crème 90W and it sounded good but the clean channel had some oddities to the mix of the two speakers. I was getting a fizzy gurgle of something from the EV speaker at a lower volume. At this point, I was considering to put the other EV back into the Mark V but did not want to go though that hassle. Why not install the Redback inito the 1x12 cab....It would give the speaker an opportunity to break in as it would be in use and not in the box it came in. Now with it paired with the Crème 90W Alnico speaker mounted in the Mark V, the clean channel was almost as awesome with just the Redback. the full tone was back especially when using the piezo pickup mounted on the Floyd Rose on this new guitar (used but mint condition) I picked up by chance at GC. CH2 had a new tone to it and well lets say it was more full in tonal quality and sounded really good. Very promising. Crème 90W on its own took on a vintage tone with CH2 due to its tuned preamp section. But when coupled with the Redback it sounded much closer to the Mesa Vertical 212 cab. I was able to appreciate the Edge voice a bit more as I have often found that particular channel mode to be useless. Where the money is at is CH3 ( saturation mod V4 is the key with the Mark V which gives it the mojo it was lacking). The Crème 90W Alnico performed the best on CH3 even with the stock tubes. With the saturation mod, the amp never sounded better and the Crème 90W speaker did its job quite well. With the Redback running parallel with the Crème 90W though the 4 ohm jacks, I was impressed overall on the tonal character. At first I thought the Redback was not doing any work but it is. Note that there is some top end frequencies from the Redback but at the moment they are so rolled off as its characteristic is to subdue the top end and the Crème 90W takes it from there. Both in cohesive harmony was worth the effort to remove the EV and install the Redback into the 1x12 cabinet. This is all subjective .....

Figured I would add this..... while I was considering removing the Celestion Crème 90W alnico from the Mark V (and going back to EV) I figured I would take the moment to run the TC-50 through the Crème 90W speaker. I did the same with the 1x12 extension cab before removing the EV. Too bad I did not try the MC90 with the TC-50 while it was in the Mark V before installing the Crème.... TC-50 and the Crème 90W was okay. I prefer the TC-50 with the V30 loaded 212 cabinet. the Crème speaker seems to have more vintage tone when driven from the TC-50 ( similar to the CH2 on the Mark V). The EV seemed a bit weird too. Both in concert together driven by the TC-50 had a better tone to it. I do not believe the Cream to be a good fit with the TC-50, as I feel about the same with the EV. I did not run the TC-50 with the Crème and Redback combination yet as I put the TC-50 head back into the studio before tearing down the 1x12 cab for the speaker swap. I usually do not like spending money on something that will not be used. So at least I am giving the Redback another chance. As for the pair of EV speakers.... the two in particular were used to start with and may have been re-coned. The dust cap does not have the EV logo on it like the 4 I have loaded in the 412 cab (those I bought new but not all at the same time, ouch). So the pair can rest for a while and if I do not use them at least I got five years out of them. They are both still usable despite the reduction in thickness of the paper gasket (typical thing when rear mounted, the gasket will spilt when you remove them).

 

[bandit2013]

I had the Celestion Red-back in an extension cab so I can break it while playing though the Mark V. I loaded the Celestion Crème Alnico 90W back into the V combo. I am impressed how well they pair up together. Recently while I was playing though the TC-50 I decided to get a tone check to hear what it sounded like through the Alnico speaker. By no means was that in any favor to my ears. The Crème 90W Alnico sounded like I was playing through a tunnel. Ran the Mark V through just the Alnico speaker.... same thing. My thoughts on voice coil damage may be confirmed. No scratchy character but the volume level is waning away. I replaced it with the MC90 and tried the TC-50 through it again. It was better but not ideal. For some reason I am not overly fond of the MC90 and only bought it so I could sell the Mark V combo. I ran the Mark V into the extension cab with the Red back. Treble response was much better than it was previously. Replaced the MC90 with the Red back in the Mark V combo. CH3 sounds huge. Clean channel is superb and well, CH2 just sounds terrible with my usual settings. Too much bottom and a bit flubby. I decided to push the volume up and the sonic overload hit my senses, the speaker sounds great if you push it. Mark I mode does seem to be too much though but drop out the bass and midrange it gets better. I will leave it in the Mark V for an extended period and see if things improve. May even do a tube roll to see if I can get what I want out of the speaker. My reason for transplanting the Red Back into the Mark V was for the clean channel only. I am basically loosing interest in the Mark V again but the clean channel when used with a piezo pickup coupled with the Red Back speaker just sounds so good. At least that is one feature I like on the Mark V. I will also work it hard on CH3 and CH2 just for kicks. May swap the power tubes again as I found a quad of Mesa STR440 6L6 Red code tubes that do not seem to vibrate or rattle. Just about every tube I have used in the Mark V gets the rattle (usually associated in the center pair of tubes). Not sure if Simul-class related but somehow I believe it is. Mark III, Mark IV also did this. Same tubes it used in the Roadster which is Class A/B does not do the tube rattle. Seems the issue stays with the amp. May be bias related or the extended push pull Class A operation on the center pair. Note, rattle diminishes to non existent in 10W mode. It gets worse in 45W mode at reduced volume as the tube rattle is very loud. The rattle I hear matches the guitar signal and usually tracks the lower notes. It does not matter if I am using the combo speaker or if I run a cabinet with a long speaker cable. Rattle is tube / amp related and not due to speaker vibration. Wonder if it is due to poor tube matching (probable). I normally store my tubes in sets as they were supplied when new even if they are the same color code. I generally mark the tubes on the label to keep the matched pair from getting mixed up. It is possible one tube may drift in its characteristics and the other one does not. Matching tubes before they get used does not mean they will remain the same over time.

 

[bandit2013]

Took it back out again... It is an interesting speaker but I want a bit less midrange emphasis and a bit more balance on the upper frequencies. This speaker would probably serve better as an accent in an extension cab vs in a combo amp. I returned back to the EVM12L Black Label speaker as I can run that at lower volumes and it still sounds as good as it does at elevated volume. Red Back sounded best when driven hard. Perhaps not for me with the amp I installed it in. Mark V combo. Oh well.. . I will find use for it somewhere someday.... :|

 

[jnoel64]

I put mine in right before a gig and took the single 12 cab to the show. I was very impressed. I tried it with my TC-50 and my Carvin V3M. The Carvin sounded the best it ever has, and that's what went to the gig. Flawless. Funny, though, Sweetwater called me right after I ordered it and reminded me that once installed, it's non-returnable. Yeah, I already knew that. They didn't bother to call me when I ordered my EVM 12L. It's only been used for clean tones so far, but it will migrate to heavier modern tones soon enough. I've not been too big of a fan of many Celestion products, but this one is definitely a winner for me.

 

[bandit2013]

The EV speaker you could probably run it any way you want too straight away. I never had an issue with break in period with any of the EV speakers. You may not want to take it full blast at first but the voice coil in the EV is very robust. Celesiton Crème ALNICO 90W, Red Back, and the Jensen Black Bird all took a long time to break in. The Red Back really sounds great when pushed. Still I think it would be a better speaker for an acoustic amplifier as I never heard a better sounding speaker for a piezo pickup equipped guitar. It dawned on me that I have not played though the EV with the piezo pickup. Well that opportunity was united since I went back to EV speakers in the Mark V and extension cab. At least I can install the Red Back any time I feel like messing with the Mark V again. Now that I have the right tubes in the V, the EV makes more sense now and I do not have the speaker hard to sound good. I thought the Red back sounded better in a deep 1x12 cab as an accent but that took away the nice clean channel characteristic.

 

[xdg999]

The Redback does sound really good when pushed. I'm looking for an old Mesa 4x12 with the metal grill to use with the wide chassis c+ I just bought. Gonna load it Redback's.

 

[bandit2013]

I am not in total dislike for the Red Back, It is a beast when you really drive it. Almost gives off a sinister tone, that is what I like about it in addition to its clean channel performance with the Mark V. I had found something of a revelation with the old Mesa Chinese tubes in the Mark V and even got some of the Beijing tubes from Doug's Tubes. Those are the same. For some reason those tubes work well in the Mark V but they do not work well in the JP-2C as I tried them in both amps. Thus the reason to go back to the EV speaker in my Mark V combo. EV speakers also sound just as beastly in the Os Recto 412 which is what I have paired up with my Roadster or the JP-2C. Holly S**t Batman... I am almost curious how they would mix in a cab with a V30.... That is tempting but I would need to get another one, well not at the moment.... I do have another 412 cab with the cream backs in it.... I may try that some day. Odd that I have not tried the Roadster though the red back yet..... I have been focused on tuning the Mark V... Perhaps there is a use for it after all.

I am on a quest to improve the Mark V and sometimes you hit a brick wall when it comes to speakers. I think I finally got the solution with change in preamp tubes and the EV black label. ( I took a different path a while ago but that was based on the Mark V tone problem that I was having and now that has been cured with the Beijing and 12AT7 in V4, V2 I used a Mullard CV4004. I am finally happy with this combination.

When you get the 412 loaded with the Red Backs, let us know how it turns out.

 

[jnoel64]

In another thread, Bandit, you posted a link to some NOS Chinese tubes at Doug's tubes. Are those the same as the Beijing tubes you are now referring to? If not, would you mind sharing a correct link? I got 2 of the NOS tubes you mentioned previously. Since I am still struggling with my V, I am open to try just about anything.

 

[bandit2013]

In another thread, Bandit, you posted a link to some NOS Chinese tubes at Doug's tubes. Are those the same as the Beijing tubes you are now referring to? If not, would you mind sharing a correct link? I got 2 of the NOS tubes you mentioned previously. Since I am still struggling with my V, I am open to try just about anything.

Yes, those are the tubes. Beijing is the province in China where the tubes were manufactured. No pun intended but I think the Chinese tubes all look alike. They are also the same tubes that Mesa used back in 1980-1990. I held on to about 10 used tubes and found those to work well in the Mark V. The Beijing tubes sound identical to the old stock Mesa tubes as they are the same. I have them in V1,3, 5, 6, and 7. V2 is a Mullard CV4004 and V4 is a Jan/Phillips 12AT7. Doug said they test high grade and should not be used in V1, (what?) not having any issues with using one in V1 position. However, if you have a first gen Mark V before the tone stack fix (sometime in 2010 they made the change). A Mullard RI 12AX7 long plate may held as it has some good high frequency roll off. I have used many of those in the Mark to curb the ice. The Beijing tube did a better job. I love every voice on all 3 channels. I used to find the Edge mode to be the most annoying tone ever created and now it sounds usable.

here is the link again.
http://www.dougstubes.com/nos-chinese-12ax7-80-s-90-s.html

 

[xdg999]

I found a vintage 4x12. It has MC-90's in the open top and VS-12's in the closed bottom. It actually sounds really good (even after cleaning the speaker cones with a damp rag). It's sounds like a bigger version of a combo amp. I still want to load it with the Redbacks but I just saw the 2018 Gibson Explorer in antique natural. The Redbacks might have to wait.

 

[bandit2013]

I did take it out of the Mark V combo a while ago but it is back in..... The speaker does sound better with some break in time. I had used it as an extension cab for a while which helped.

 

[bandit2013]

Keep in mind, I have swapped the speaker in the Mark V combo so many times I can do it in my sleep. I was starting to dislike the tone of the EV in the combo. Those sound great in a closed back cab though. For an open back combo, I would say the tone of the Redback is similar to the Mesa Vetical 212 cab once the speaker is broken in. It will not sound amazing out of the box as it does take some break-in time to soften up the spider and webbing materials. Best of all I cannot get any flub out of this speaker and it excels at higher volume levels. Even the JP-2C could not break it up. Why it fits the Mark V is it does cut back on some of the top end harshness, but sounds good if you get that tamed with a 12AT7 in V4. It will take a few months of use for the treble to be as strong as a V30 and the mids will require more time before they peak. I am now getting a good balance from low to high that it sounds very pleasing. Actually the tone is similar to the Crème 90W alnico but not as much of a vintage tone (similar in some respects). Clean channel, awesome!! Best I ever heard yet as I mentioned a few times. Crunch channel sound more classic rock and CH3 just roars. Now I am happy with the Mark V combo but did take some patience in breaking in the speaker.

 

[xdg999]

I bought another Redback and pulled the one out of my DRG and installed them in the top open half of the 4x12. Sounds great! Very balanced with my HSS Strat, huge with my Les Paul. I ordered another 2 today to put in the closed bottom half. I thought about putting 2 EV's in the 4x12 but I want to be able to carry it.

 

[bandit2013]

EV is not much heavier than the V30. I can still pick up the OS Recto 412 loaded with EV speakers, although I would rather not want to pick it up off of the floor for any extended period of time (same would apply to the stock OS Recto 412). I have a traditional sized Egnator cab and that is very light. I really like the Red back in the Mark V combo! It is a cry above the MC90 and I have yet to experience cone distortion or coil slap at elevated volumes with the Red back. It does color the tone a bit but not as dramatic as the Celestion Crème 90W Alnico (still that was an awesome speaker especially on CH3 prior to the "saturation mod" thread of events.). I have gone back to the EVM12L black label for a short while and found it a bit sterile. I do not remember the Black Shadow EVM speaker to have that effect that was in the Mark III. Like the EV speaker, the Red back Celestion can be pushed very hard and it roars. I even tried to break it with the JP-2C and that sounded awesome too. The Red back is one speaker that does take considerable amount of break in to soften it up so from the start in a Combo you may not like it at first. I ran the speaker in a 1x12 extension cab along with what ever speaker I decided to stuff into the Mark V combo. (started with the Crème 90W but that was on the way out due to damage caused by running the JP-2C though it, it did not take long for the speaker to sound like you were playing though a tunnel so I would assume there are cracks in the varnish of the voice coil, never sounded scratchy or typical of a speaker with a damaged voice coil, it just got weaker once it warmed up, bummer).

The Organic Timbre Rhapsody G12F should be arriving today. It is an EV clone but with a different voice with some coloring in the sound spectrum. I am looking forward to trying it out and see what works for me. Since I modified the Mark V combo shell for front mounting the EV speaker it should just drop in (front mounting is preferred for sake of preamp tube access, rear mounted required chassis removal to get to the preamp tubes, even the Red back has made preamp tube a bit of a challenge but is manageable. I think I hear a speaker shoot out coming soon. Definitely will have to compare it to the MC90, Red back, EVM12L but I doubt the Celestion 90W crème will make it in the mix. If I can get closer to the Vertical 212 tone with a single speaker in an open back enclosure I would be happy, I do not mind having something different either. So far the Red back has opened up its voice considerably I almost do not want to remove it. I would recommend the Red back but with reservation on break in time as it was not an instant gem like the Celestion Creame 90W alnioco right out of the box except on the clean channel. Even after the break in, it still sounds the best I have heard yet on the clean channel (with an acoustic bridge pickup of the piezo variety it sounds even better). High gain channels is where the tone suffered the most right out of the box but once broken in it sounds amazing. Also will help curb the upper harmonics and brittleness of a very bright amp. Note that the speaker does get brighter and the mids will be more apparent after break in. If the OTR wins me over I may run with that for a while. The Red back is a keeper so it is something good to fall back on.

 

[jnoel64]

I am very eager to hear your review of the Organic Timbre. I found those a while back and have had my eye on one.

I moved my Red Back to a deeper 1x12 cab and rear mounted it. I actually loved its tone fresh from the box, and am looking forward to hearing it in the deeper cab. It's still not completely broken in, so if it keeps getting better, I will be thrilled.

 

[bandit2013]

There is one characteristic I took notice to recently with the Red back on a gain channel. At lower volume levels the bass seems to get a bit flubby or fartish. Perhaps a hit of breakup in the response of the cone. This is bedroom level but may be related to the Mark V characteristic on CH2 and CH3. CH2 is more prone to this. However, raise the bar on the master volume (using the FX loop active mode) it goes away. The louder you drive the speaker the better it sounds. This is also similar to the EV at reduced volume but has a different characteristic to it. Perhaps the 2.5 inch VC is the reason. I have compared the same signal level with the Vertical 212 and no flub, fart or odd low volume issue. That cab just sounds great at any volume level.

Will see what happens once I get into recording the different speakers and will have to explore the low volume level response too. (I will keep the recording to the optimal so you get a better idea how it sounds at moderate levels). Always hard to find a single speaker that can handle the full power from a 90W+(includes the peak power 110Wrms from the Mark V) amplifier. For certain if Mesa offered a JP-2C 1x12 combo the Red back would work out fine (I really pushed it hard with the JP to see if I could get break up, nope ) Still have not touched the OTR speaker yet (other than opening the box to take a peak inside).

 

[xdg999]

I installed the Redbacks in the closed bottom half a couple of days ago. I don't know what the cab weighs with the Redbacks but it's managable. The Mark 5 25 and Mini Rec sound really good thru it. If I didn't own a c+ I could live with just the Mark 5 25 on the crunch channel alone. The Mini Rec clean channel, which is one of my favorites, is really nice. Makes me wonder what a Redback would sound like in a Rectoverb 25. I installed one of the Mesa VS-12 speakers I took out of the 4x12 in a Mojotone Lite 1x12 that I use with my Mark 5 25 and Mini Rec. I was suprised at how good it sounds. No ice pick and no fizz.