Volume Box

[gem12]

Does anyone tried this product on their Express 5:50 yet?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/METAL-VOLUME-BOX-GUITAR-ATTENUATOR-MESA-BOOGIE-AMP-/200621064933?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb5f282e5
Will you recommend it if you already does?

 

[mtodd6]

You can make your own fixed attenuator cable with 2-3 resistors, some wire & a couple of jacks. Or if you have some effects in the loop with an output level, that will work as well -- I have a volume pedal->delay in my fx loop to do volume swells & preserve my long delay tails, but you can use a compressor or equalizer. I kind of like the sound of a compressor in the effects loop but apparently that's not kosher for most guitarists.

YMMV but I have a problem paying $25+S/H for a box with a volume pot & a couple of resistors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi_pad

 

[mtodd6]

More links:

http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/
http://www.goldpt.com/mods.html

You can buy fixed audio pads, but they are crazy expensive. I guess $25 is not a bad price if you don't have a friend with a soldering iron. I would put the money towards a good volume pedal which will do the same thing & allow you to use as a boost for solos.

 

[MrMarkIII]

These things are merely a potentiometer in a box.
Same thing as a volume pedal but without the treadle.
The function pretty much duplicates your Master Volume.
They are not an attenuator.

 

[mtodd6]

They are not an attenuator.

The aforementioned 'Box' is not a speaker attenuator, but the effect is called attenuation when you dissipate the signal energy in the circuit. A pot is a variable resistor so it is dissipating the signal energy in the serial effects loop. It more commonly call a PAD, but the volume pedal circuit is the same an unbalanced PAD. But if you called the effects loop circuit an attenuator, an engineer or audio geek would know what you are talking about.

 

[Krek13]

it's not an attenautor, it doesn't let you "fry" the tubes so you can get a better sound on low volumes, it's like a master volume on your express...don't throw your money cos this is useless...

 

[mdortona]

I have to disagree that these boxes are useless. I have used them successfully with a variety of amps (Fenders, Boogies, Marshalls) in terms of simply allowing me to run things a bit hotter and then using the Volume Box to reign in the volume (e.g. with a DC-5 run the master volume around 3-4, with the channel volumes around 5 and then dial back the output). The other guitarist in my band does the same thing with his Marshall head. FWIW, I got mine for $20 off of ebay (the Omnisonic Volume Box). I'm sure you can build one cheaper, but for $20 it worth the savings of my time.

Matt

 

[Krek13]

I have to disagree that these boxes are useless. I have used them successfully with a variety of amps (Fenders, Boogies, Marshalls) in terms of simply allowing me to run things a bit hotter and then using the Volume Box to reign in the volume (e.g. with a DC-5 run the master volume around 3-4, with the channel volumes around 5 and then dial back the output). The other guitarist in my band does the same thing with his Marshall head. FWIW, I got mine for $20 off of ebay (the Omnisonic Volume Box). I'm sure you can build one cheaper, but for $20 it worth the savings of my time.

Matt

it's useless with the amps that have master volume...you can put you master volume lower than 3-4 and get the same result...you are not running your amp hotter!

 

[mdortona]

To the contrary, if your increasing the master volume, by definition, more current is being passed along to the power section, so you are running things a bit hotter.

Matt

 

[Krek13]

To the contrary, if your increasing the master volume, by definition, more current is being passed along to the power section, so you are running things a bit hotter.

Matt

yes, and the volume box does the same thing as a master volume so when you use the volume box to lower the volume less current is passing along...logic...so you are not running hotter at all...you wasted 20$ so get over it :wink:

 

[mtodd6]

If you're going to stick a passive circuit in your effects loop, by all means spend the money on a volume pedal, or a modulation pedal without a level out knob.

 

[MrMarkIII]

There are two ways to overdrive the power tubes:
1) Play loud.
2) Get a speaker attenuator, such as the THD Hot Plate or Weber MASS attenuator. Attenuators hook up between the amp and the speaker, and work by absorbing some of the output energy of the amplifier before it gets to the speaker.
So-called "volume boxes" in the effects loop do exactly the same thing as a master volume control.

 

[ddmeburger]

If you're going to stick a passive circuit in your effects loop, by all means spend the money on a volume pedal, or a modulation pedal without a level out knob.

Definitely! I'm not well versed in electonics, so I can't tell you that cranking up your masters a good bit and putting an extra control in the effects loop does anything to the tone or pushes the EL84s or 6L6s any harder, but using my EB VPJr in the loop sure affords lots of flexibility.

Mind you, that is not to take the place of the guitar's volume knob, or a VP somewhere in your signal chain in front of the amp. It's just another tool that helps me out once my channel masters are balanced, allowing me to keep the same ratio between the two channels and raise or lower the overall volume the same amount, depending upon whether I'm practicing late at night, teaching, jamming, etc., without having to touch either master again. The only time I have to fiddle with them is when I flip flop clean/dirty modes from green/Clean and red/Bluesy overdrive to green/Crunch and red/Bluesy clean.

I've heard it's better to use the 25K pot in the loop, so I picked one up earlier this year to complement my 250K version. I have nothing in the loop other than the VP, and I can't tell a difference between the two when I A/B them.

 

[mtodd6]

I can't tell you that cranking up your masters a good bit and putting an extra control in the effects loop does anything to the tone or pushes the EL84s or 6L6s any harder

I don't have a schematic for the 5:50, but for one of my Fenders, the effects loop has a tube stage driver before send & after return with level controls for each, so it's effectively another boost if the send/receive is jumped with a straight cable. Your effects loop is resistor & capacitor coupled with some kind of driver, so switching in the effects loop will affect the tone, but since a passive volume pedal is likely just a pot/resistor, I cannot imagine it would affect the tone that much.

Looking at the tube chart for my 5:50, it appears to have a tube driver (would really be disappointed if Mesa put op amps in the 5:50) & the effects loop is resistor/capacitor coupled so engaging the effects loop will change the tone -- I doubt I could hear it but some audiophiles can hear dog whistles.

The potential for changing things is putting a pedal in the loop. These things have op amp & transistor drivers. I've tried EQ in the effects loop without any good results vs changing the input/preamp signal. But then again, if you're mic'ing the amp, it's going through a solid state board & PA. So there are a lot of things that affect tone. I run a multi pedal in my 5:50 loop & I really cannot tell a big difference using compression and delay/modulation, but I like the multi pedal in front of some amps and I like it a lot better in the loop for modulation & volume control.

To get power tube, output transformer saturation & speaker breakup, you have to crank the amp past 6 & then not attenuate the effects loop signal too much or alternatively boost the effects loop signal. I'm sure there are differences in how you get the power stage signal boosted. I tend to think if you're going to get a cranked amp sound, don't use the effects loop.

You can use the old rule of sixes: vol=6, treble=6, bass/middle= 3/2 (3x2)=6 & then vary the master volume to achieve the right amount of output transformer & speaker breakup, and then plug in the effects loop to compare. Fender's sound great on this setting, but it's too loud for most of us.