Triple Recto - High gain plus high treble and presence

[Ugmo]

Dudes, apologize if this has been covered ad nauseum, but I took a quick look and didn't see it. In the manual for the Triple Rectifier it says:

NOTE: Due to the Rectos’ extreme gain potential, the highest regions of the GAIN Control may possibly push the pre-amp tubes past what they can handle, producing microphonic squealing. While we screen and test the tubes your amplifier was shipped with and the tubes in your amp passed our rigourous test, we can’t predict how the tubes will respond over time exposed to extreme gain settings. Your tubes are warranted for a period of 6 months under normal use, but you can save yourself the present and future inconvenience of having to deal with annoying microphonic tube problems by simply using a little common sense...Don’t turn the Gain all the way up!

If you must for a specific part or at very low volumes, back down the TREBLE and PRESENCE Controls. Your Recto was designed to provide amazing gain and tone at less than extreme settings removing the need for you to crank everything all the way up. If you are not able to achieve the sound you want at sensible settings on any or all of the controls, your problem may lie elsewhere in the signal chain, i.e. pick-ups, cabinetry, processing etc. Keep in mind you can always call on one of our product specialist Monday through Thursday and seek some advice should you find yourself struggling to get the sound you want.

I play a Triple Recto through a Marshall 1960 cabinet and mostly use an Ibanez Prestige. I use the Vintage mode on gain channel 2 exclusively. I'm also running it through a TC Electronic G System, but that shouldn't affect the tone too much as it is just an effects system and defers to the Head for tone. My problem (if that is a problem) is that I can't seem to get the high gain tone I want without cranking the gain all the way and setting the presence to about 3 o'clock and the treble to 3 o'clock or higher. The pickups on my Ibanez are pretty hot, so I can't imagine that being a problem. I also do not play that loud, as my amp is almost always mic'd through the PA live and I practice at low volumes at home.

Has anyone experienced problems with the Recto over the long term when using these settings, as the manual warns? I've been using the high gain/high presence/high treble setting for over two years now and haven't had any problems, plus I'm pleased with the tone in this setting. Has anyone had any negative experiences with the amp's performance here?

 

[Chris McKinley]

By all accounts and my own personal experience, full gain with both treble and presence up at 3:00 or greater would be a horrible tone....muddy to the point of being unuseable and also painfully shrill. I have to ask first, what were you used to playing through before your Triple Rec? Was it either a solid state amp with high gain or perhaps a modeller of some kind? If so, those kinds of amps can offer overwhelming amounts of gain that even a "high gain" tube amp cannot reproduce alone.

You may also be wanting to emulate a certain recorded tone you've heard. If so, you should know that Mesa Rectifiers are almost never recorded dry without boosts or overdrives, as well as heavy doses of EQing. That being the case, I highly suggest you consider adding either a booster or an OD to your rig. You'll get even more gain than you are getting now (by quite a bit), but it will be without all the mud and piercing shrillness, plus you'll get a lot more harmonic response.

Try setting your amp's gain to around 12:00 to 1:00, the presence at about noon and the treble at about 1:00 to 2:00. Then put an OD up front between your guitar and your amp. Set the OD's level knob to max, the drive/gain knob to anywhere between minimum and 10:00, and the tone knob to taste. You'll get a tone that's a lot better than what you're using now, with more gain and harmonics, but without all the tonal problems.

 

[Ugmo]

Before I was playing with a Marshall AVT 150 Valvestate head. I'm actually happy with my tone right now, and don't consider it to be either muddy or shrill. Actually, if you're interested you can hear a comparison here:

http://www.adrenalinekings.com/en/audio-en.php

The older album on the left was recorded through the Marshall and the album on the right with the Mesa, using the settings I described (of course both were EQ'd by the mixer after the fact). The only reason I was asking is because I don't want to screw anything up on the amp by using so much gain. I am intrigued by your suggestion though! I may indeed look into using an overdrive in addition, so I appreciate the advice.

 

[fluff191]

A. Time for a boost pedal like OD808. I have the gain on the amp at noon and with the boost, and its insane.

B. Dont be afraid to turn things OFF i.e. presence. On both dirty channels, I turn it completely off. Compensate by adding a little more treble.

 

[TREC]

+1

 

[Metaltastic]

A. Time for a boost pedal like OD808. I have the gain on the amp at noon and with the boost, and its insane.

B. Dont be afraid to turn things OFF i.e. presence. On both dirty channels, I turn it completely off. Compensate by adding a little more treble.

Even after doing the presence knob mod? IMO the presence knob is still definitely important and cutting it completely can leave a bizarre hole in the top end (as it controls a higher frequency than the treble knob, ~4k vs. ~3k, respectively) - around 9:00-10:00 on the red channel modern/1:00-2:00 on the orange modern should be a good balance!

 

[fluff191]

I have it pretty much off in Channel 3 and at about 9 o'clock on Channel 2. In a band setting it sounds pretty god and cuts down on beaming. Keep in mind Im using Blackouts, which have loads of high end.

 

[fretout]

FWIW, I own a Triple Rectifier (3 channel) and I usually have my gain between 12 - 1 o'clock (depending on the volume), and I have plenty of gain for Vintage and Modern settings.

To answer your original question about pushing gain higher than 2 o'clock, I did have my gain on the channel 3 (set to modern) between 3 - 4 o' clock for a few years, before I knew how to REALLY dial this amp in and I never had any issues.

 

[Ugmo]

FWIW, I own a Triple Rectifier (3 channel) and I usually have my gain between 12 - 1 o'clock (depending on the volume), and I have plenty of gain for Vintage and Modern settings.

To answer your original question about pushing gain higher than 2 o'clock, I did have my gain on the channel 3 (set to modern) between 3 - 4 o' clock for a few years, before I knew how to REALLY dial this amp in and I never had any issues.

I don't get how this is possible. If I set my gain to between 12 and 1 o'clock on the vintage setting I don't get anywhere near enough gain for hard rock - as in not even in the neighborhood of what I need. It's maybe more of an early 70s classic rock crunch, but I can't get an 80s hard rock tone without cranking the gain all the way up.

 

[mrd]

I'm with Chris on this one. I was cringing whilst reading the description of your tone settings. Reminds me of a live show I went to a while ago, it was a band with two guitar players. One guy had Les Paul running through something Marshall and the other guy had some ESP looking thing running through a Dual Recto. During sound check, the LP/Marshall guy's tone was fat, thick, bassy, creamy, gainy, everything you would expect from a hard-rock/metal tone. Sound check on Dual Recto guy? HORRIBLE! It sounded like a jar full of fucking pissed off bees! His tone had no clarity, no definition, no warmth. It just sounded like ice-picks flying across the stage. And I'm sure you can guess what else... he was absolutely BURIED in the live mix once the band started playing. I had no idea what the **** he did for the entire show as the guy with the LP/Marshall completely wiped the floor with him, even though their volumes were the same during sound check. I knew right away what was wrong with his tone and I had to fight a strong urge to get up on stage, punch the guy in the teeth, and show him what the **** "tone" actually means.

Anyway... I'm curious to know how loud you're playing? If you're running your gain that high you must play exclusively with feedback. Like suggested, turn your gain/treble/presence down. Keep in mind this is a 100-watt tube amp. Know what it's for? It's for turning up, loud. For a classic recto tone, just put everything at noon o'clock, including that volume knob. With any half-decent guitar straight in, this should yield you a pretty bitchin', throaty tone.

Personally, I like to run my gain quite low when I play loud, like even down to 9 or 10o'clock. From here, I run bass at about 8 or 9o'clock. This is because once you start getting to a certain volume, the cab imparts its own bass voice that is impossible to attenuate, so if your bass knob is too high, your tone just turns into ****. Mids I play with, depending on what I'm doing. For rhythm stuff I'll usually just park them at 11-12o'clock, and for leads I'll crank it up to 3o'clock or so. Treble I leave at 11-12o'clock. Presence depends on the mode, but it's usually never higher than about 1o'clock. I personally find that running my treble up high like Chris suggested (1-2o'clock) in addition to an OD pedal just gives too much gain, so I keep it a bit lower.

I think you should do an experiment and just turn your amp all the way up. Turn your gain and treble super low, and leave everything else at 12o'clock. Turn your volume to 100%, then slowly raise the gain and treble until you get something that is responsive but not over-saturated.

Oh yeah, make sure you wear some ear-plugs.

 

[Metaltastic]

FWIW, even with the level on my Tube Screamer set to unity gain (where the amount of saturation doesn't change between having it on or off, usually around 11:30), I run the gain at around 2:30 on my 2 ch. Dual, so you really gotta push it for some good saturation! (mainly so palm mutes have a nice fizz sustain trail to them, rather than just sounding choked)

 

[mrd]

Here, I did a few tone tests with three different settings, so you can tell me if any of them are close to what you're looking for? Maybe it will help you find the tone you're seeking, or at least give you somewhere to start.

Here's what I did: I don't have a TR, so my RK will have to do. I only ran one pair of EL34s with tube rectifiers, so the issue of headroom difference will be of significance when comparing to your TR. I mic'd up my Recto 4x12 cab with a Sennheiser e609 and a Shure SM57, both slightly off axis, and both panned at the board about 30% left and right, respectively. I was playing my LTD KH-602 for these.

In the first clip (http://members.shaw.ca/mrduplicity/bass_cut.mp3) I ran everything at noon. All EQ knobs, volumes, presence, gain, everything at noon. I ran my guitar through an EQ pedal with a sort of high-pass filter set on it, to drain some of the booming low end out of the guitar signal so that the amp has more juice to apply to the voice of the guitar and not to the mud of it. I didn't apply any gain with the pedal in this clip, so this is basically just straight in with a bit of bass-cuts at the EQ pedal. I think this clip has pretty good definition and clarity, but in terms of gain, it's a bit lacking. You can hear that the palm-mutes just kind of fizzle out.

In the second clip (http://members.shaw.ca/mrduplicity/bass_cut_with_10db_boost.mp3) the settings on my amp are identical to the first clip, except that I introduced +10dB of gain with my EQ pedal. You can hear it's a bit hairier sounding, and the palm-mutes are more chunky. I think in terms of note definition, etc, it's still pretty good!

In this third clip (http://members.shaw.ca/mrduplicity/max_bass_cut_gain_10.mp3) I turned my amp's volumes (channel & master output) to 100%, all the way up. I turned my gain down to about 10o'clock, and I turned the EQ gain off, so it's again being used as merely a bass-cut like it was in the first clip. The tonality of this clip is a bit different because one of my mics started to peak out, so I had to back off the gain of it, so the mix ratio of the two mics together is a bit different than the first two clips. Either way, I think this clip again has pretty good clarity, the only difference is that the majority of the gain is coming from the power amp in this clip, since all the volumes are maxed out. If you were to kick up the gain a bit more, to say 12o'clock, you would get a pretty sweet lead tone. Or, if you could stand further back (which I couldn't) to prevent bone-shattering feedback from occuring, then you'd have a sweet rhythm tone.

Lemme know what you think of the clips, if you want me to try some settings, let me know soon while it's still the middle of the day and I won't get in trouble for pissing off the entire city block with my noise :lol:

BTW, here is a picture of my EQ pedal, it's a 10-band MXR:
http://members.shaw.ca/mrduplicity/EQ.jpg

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to say, this is CH.3 Modern mode.

 

[ltd2recto]

I'm with Chris on this one. I was cringing whilst reading the description of your tone settings. Reminds me of a live show I went to a while ago, it was a band with two guitar players. One guy had Les Paul running through something Marshall and the other guy had some ESP looking thing running through a Dual Recto. During sound check, the LP/Marshall guy's tone was fat, thick, bassy, creamy, gainy, everything you would expect from a hard-rock/metal tone. Sound check on Dual Recto guy? HORRIBLE! It sounded like a jar full of f%&# pissed off bees! His tone had no clarity, no definition, no warmth. It just sounded like ice-picks flying across the stage. And I'm sure you can guess what else... he was absolutely BURIED in the live mix once the band started playing. I had no idea what the f%&# he did for the entire show as the guy with the LP/Marshall completely wiped the floor with him, even though their volumes were the same during sound check. I knew right away what was wrong with his tone and I had to fight a strong urge to get up on stage, punch the guy in the teeth, and show him what the f%&# "tone" actually means.

It was a single recto. You should have tried to punch the guy in the teeth! j/k

I can agree that my "tone" was terrible that night. I have no idea what happened when we went to play. I flipped it off of standby & all the low end was gone! Checked my settings before nick started in & they were fine. Couldn't stop the show at that point so I just ran with it. Trust me, I was cringing too. We played last weekend & my low end was there.

Check out my recorded tone @ http://www.myspace.com/beforeitbeganmusic
The demo sneek peak song has no boost or post eq. Eq in the loop though. beta 57. Live Im using a modded ts10. All the other songs are of crappy recording status with 1 mic in the room. But the recto is still there.

 

[mrd]

It was a single recto. You should have tried to punch the guy in the teeth! j/k

I can agree that my "tone" was terrible that night. I have no idea what happened when we went to play. I flipped it off of standby & all the low end was gone! Checked my settings before nick started in & they were fine. Couldn't stop the show at that point so I just ran with it. Trust me, I was cringing too. We played last weekend & my low end was there.

Check out my recorded tone @ http://www.myspace.com/beforeitbeganmusic
The demo sneek peak song has no boost or post eq. Eq in the loop though. beta 57. Live Im using a modded ts10. All the other songs are of crappy recording status with 1 mic in the room. But the recto is still there.

Not sure what you're on about or why you think my story was about you; it most certainly was not. Nice try!

 

[coppa]

I don't know how exactly you guys are able to hear one individual's rig by reading the amp settings. It doesn't sound like a question about tonal advice. He even posted a clip of his current sound, and said that he is quite happy with the sound hes got going on right now. How about you tell him what you think is wrong with it first. It sounded good to me. :shock:

In my experience the more extreme the settings on a recto get the less responsive they get as well so it kind of balances out. I also run my treble all the way up and presence around 10:00 gain about 2:00 with bass and mids off. I arrived at those setting by turning off the lights and twisting knobs in the dark until it sounded good to me, and no its not fizzy and shrill sounding at all.

maybe Ugmo and I have something wrong with our amps? or our ears? :lol:

Its true that hovering around noon every knob is most "responsive" ,but that's not the only way to use them.

The boost and eq method works. There is no doubt about that, but its not the only way.
Maybe instead of teaching him how to put a boost in front of the amp you guys could learn how not to be afraid of the treble.

This is not meant to put down your suggestions. I just think that every time someone starts talking about settings or setting up
a rectifier its the same thing that everyone says over and over. When was the last time you heard "try cranking up the treble a whole bunch" :lol:

Back to the original question:

If you have no crazy squealing sounds your tubes and your amp is fine. Don't worry about it.

 

[ltd2recto]

It was a single recto. You should have tried to punch the guy in the teeth! j/k

I can agree that my "tone" was terrible that night. I have no idea what happened when we went to play. I flipped it off of standby & all the low end was gone! Checked my settings before nick started in & they were fine. Couldn't stop the show at that point so I just ran with it. Trust me, I was cringing too. We played last weekend & my low end was there.

Check out my recorded tone @ http://www.myspace.com/beforeitbeganmusic
The demo sneek peak song has no boost or post eq. Eq in the loop though. beta 57. Live Im using a modded ts10. All the other songs are of crappy recording status with 1 mic in the room. But the recto is still there.

Not sure what you're on about or why you think my story was about you; it most certainly was not. Nice try!

Just a coincidence I guess. What are the odds? I thought you were in Wichita.

 

[Ugmo]

Back to the original question:

If you have no crazy squealing sounds your tubes and your amp is fine. Don't worry about it.

See, if you'd replied to this thread a little sooner I might be 250 euros richer right now and would not be the proud owner of a new "Box of Rock." :lol:

Honestly, maybe there is something wrong with my Recto, because it doesn't sound weird to me on the settings I was describing. I even went to the store the other day and tried an Ibanez through a Dual Rectifier and compared that sound to what I could get from various overdrive pedals, and it still sounded fine to me!

That being said, I'm happy with the distortion pedal, because I have other guitars that aren't as hot as my Ibanez RG3120, and even with maximum gain and nearly maximum treble and presence on the Recto, I still wasn't able to get enough crunch to sustain the notes to a sufficient degree. Maybe that sounds weird, but in any case the pedal seems to be doing the trick. The issue I'm wondering about now is whether you guys are getting any extraneous fuzz and noise as a result of the pedal that causes problems on stage. I had a show on Saturday and it seemed to be okay, but I didn't have enough of a soundcheck to experiment with really high gain at stage-level volume (and I certainly can't do that at home with all my neighbors!).

 

[Ugmo]

Anyway... I'm curious to know how loud you're playing? If you're running your gain that high you must play exclusively with feedback. Like suggested, turn your gain/treble/presence down. Keep in mind this is a 100-watt tube amp. Know what it's for? It's for turning up, loud. For a classic recto tone, just put everything at noon o'clock, including that volume knob. With any half-decent guitar straight in, this should yield you a pretty bitchin', throaty tone.

Personally, I like to run my gain quite low when I play loud, like even down to 9 or 10o'clock. From here, I run bass at about 8 or 9o'clock. This is because once you start getting to a certain volume, the cab imparts its own bass voice that is impossible to attenuate, so if your bass knob is too high, your tone just turns into sh!t. Mids I play with, depending on what I'm doing. For rhythm stuff I'll usually just park them at 11-12o'clock, and for leads I'll crank it up to 3o'clock or so. Treble I leave at 11-12o'clock. Presence depends on the mode, but it's usually never higher than about 1o'clock. I personally find that running my treble up high like Chris suggested (1-2o'clock) in addition to an OD pedal just gives too much gain, so I keep it a bit lower.

I think you should do an experiment and just turn your amp all the way up. Turn your gain and treble super low, and leave everything else at 12o'clock. Turn your volume to 100%, then slowly raise the gain and treble until you get something that is responsive but not over-saturated.

Oh yeah, make sure you wear some ear-plugs.

Cranking it up all the way is not really an option, as right now I have a pretty good relationship with both my bandmates and my neighbors and I would like things to stay that way thank you very much! Everything gets mic'd through the PA and I've never met a sound guy who wanted the amps cranked up to 11. Nor have I ever had feedback problems with those settings, though I guess if the stage is big enough and you're not running over 12 o'clock on the amp output, feeback problems aren't all that likely anyway, are they?

 

[ltd2recto]

Your recorded tone sounds pretty good. However, if that was the gain on 10, I think something is wrong unless you have a super light pick attack. My amps gain on 10 is pretty much nuclear meltdown. I usually run 1 O'clock with a boost & it's screamin.

Are you still using the stock pre amp tubes?

 

[mrd]

You're right, sound guys (and band-mates!... and neighbours :?) hate super-loud amps, and in my experience, some sound guys will just turn you right off at the board if you piss them off too much lol.

Anyway, my suggestions were meant for a solo-mission, to help possibly diagnose your problem. I should have mentioned that, sorry. Either way, tone is in the ear of the beholder, so if you're happy, and your audience isn't running away screaming, then really, who cares what the **** knobs say? Power to ya, regardless of your stinkin' treble knob :twisted: