Triaxis W/D or FX Loop

[steve_k]

Running the Triaxis as a "wet amp" mono into an Intellifex and to FX return of a modded Marshall JMP for power. The "dry" side is a IIC+. All this is running through a Mesa high gain switcher. I have also tried the Intellifex through the Triaxis loop then on to the Marshall for power. I can't make my mind up which sounds better. The Intellifex has enough range in the input/output to handle the line signal either way. Getting ready to rack and wire all this up for some upcoming gigs.

Any opinions here on pros and cons of either set up? I guess in layman's terms, the Triaxis -> Intellifex -> Marshall is more of a series set up with full on preamped signal into the effects unit. Run in the Triaxis FX loop it is more of a conventional parallel loop set up. But, I can't tell much if any difference in tone suck or character. Maybe because it is a mono rig. Either way, its a smoking set up and is huge.

What have you found to deliver the best results and ease of control?

Thanks--Steve

 

[steve_k]

Answered my own question....bypass the Triaxis loop and go direct to the Intellifex then to power. Loosing too much Triaxis goodness in the loop. At gig volumes, the loss in character is much more noticeable.

 

[ando]

Run in the Triaxis FX loop it is more of a conventional parallel loop set up.

No, it's a serial loop. The loop just adds one more tube stage (V5). When you don't use the loop returns, you bypass V5. Some feel that the loop sounds a little mushier. Also, when you bypass the loop, you aren't using the output pots A/B, so you have to set your levels individually within each patch. V5 is like an output driver so you can raise or lower the output to really drive your power amp if you like. Some like to be able to dial in to the sweet spot of their power amp using the output pots.

 

[crane]

Isn't V5 used with or without (you...) the loop use ?
I have to try to remove V5 and run my TA dry to the PA.

 

[ando]

Isn't V5 used with or without (you...) the loop use ?
I have to try to remove V5 and run my TA dry to the PA.

Yeah, V5 is used if you don't use the loop. It's the output tube.

What I meant was that if you use the FX sends ->Fx unit -> Power amp, you are bypassing V5.

I was thinking the OP was using this setup because if you use the main outs -> Fx Unit, it's too easy to overload your FX Unit. The Triaxis has very hot outputs in my experience. I experienced too much clipping when I used main outs into my FX units.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[crane]

No worry, I'm a little bit tired these days !
Right about the outputs, very hot. I've used an Intellifex too to tame the volume with a low input/output setting, otherwise it was very hard to find a bedroom volume with only the TA and a poweramp.

 

[steve_k]

I gigged with this set up last night. Running the Triaxis and the IIC+ A/B/Y'd through the Mesa switcher, I am failure sure I had some phasing issues going on that I didn't think about. I had 2 presets to switch within the Triaxis - one Lead1 Red and one Lead2 Yellow setting. Since Lead2 adds V4 (one or both triodes), there has to be some phasing control to deal with. If swpping presets in the Triaxis adds or takes away even order triodes, there shouldn't be a problem. Adding to or removing odd order triodes would yield some nasty results onstage if not compensated for.

Anyone else controlling phase inversion when running the Triaxis with another amp? At gig volumes and outdoors, I was fairly certain that I was getting almost complete cancellation of some frequencies.

Steve

 

[elvis]

You actually have a few possible culprits.

1. With any digital processor, you have a delay, even when effects are bypassed digitally. This is due to the time it takes to convert from A to D and D to A, plus DSP processing time. When your whole signal passes through the processor (both wet and dry), both are delayed equally and sum together without a problem. The total delay is too small for your ears to detect, and the signals are in-phase. If you have a parallel path that is not routed through the processor, then you will get an out of phase summation that causes what you described. Two possible solutions: run the Triaxis as only wet (set intellifex for 100% wet, or kill dry, or whatever it may be capable of). Or use a true-stereo FX box and run the Triaxis in one channel and the IIC+ in the other with FX bypassed on the IIC+ channel.

2. Having the two speakers for the two amps physically separated causes differential phase delays and will result in frequency cancellation that is based on the distance from each speaker to your ears. Again, killing the dry signal completely from the Triaxis will help.

3. You may be right about the cause being phase change in the Triaxis. Often W/D setups use the same preamp, but different power amps, though your setup is not unusual. You could either tweak your settings to make sure you only use Triaxis modes that are in phase with the IIC+, or you could use a switchable buffer that inverts. If you have a true-bypass loop box that can be controlled via a remote switch, then you can put an inverting buffer in the loop and program the Triaxis to engage or bypass the loop via the switch controls built into it.

 

[steve_k]

You actually have a few possible culprits.

1. With any digital processor, you have a delay, even when effects are bypassed digitally. This is due to the time it takes to convert from A to D and D to A, plus DSP processing time. When your whole signal passes through the processor (both wet and dry), both are delayed equally and sum together without a problem. The total delay is too small for your ears to detect, and the signals are in-phase. If you have a parallel path that is not routed through the processor, then you will get an out of phase summation that causes what you described. Two possible solutions: run the Triaxis as only wet (set intellifex for 100% wet, or kill dry, or whatever it may be capable of). Or use a true-stereo FX box and run the Triaxis in one channel and the IIC+ in the other with FX bypassed on the IIC+ channel.

2. Having the two speakers for the two amps physically separated causes differential phase delays and will result in frequency cancellation that is based on the distance from each speaker to your ears. Again, killing the dry signal completely from the Triaxis will help.

3. You may be right about the cause being phase change in the Triaxis. Often W/D setups use the same preamp, but different power amps, though your setup is not unusual. You could either tweak your settings to make sure you only use Triaxis modes that are in phase with the IIC+, or you could use a switchable buffer that inverts. If you have a true-bypass loop box that can be controlled via a remote switch, then you can put an inverting buffer in the loop and program the Triaxis to engage or bypass the loop via the switch controls built into it.

Thanks for your opinion. I think I am leaning toward number 3. I do know that if you add or take away an even number of gain stages (i.e. both triodes in a preamp tube), that phase inversion should not take place. If 3 is correct, then it must be adding only one triode on the settings I was hitting between LEAD1 Red to LEAD2 Yellow. The only piece of gear I have to invert phase on the fly is a custom RJM Y-Not. The phase inversion is MIDI controllable with the A/B program selects. But, I don't find it having near the isolation of the Mesa switcher. I still may be able to use it behind the Mesa switcher, programmed for only an input and A output with the phase invert on a MIDI program control with the Triaxis program selection. Just one more piece of gear in the chain though. Got to study this some more and do some sound tests.

Steve