Triaxis - General Questions on setting up beautiful tones

[faser]

Hi there fellow Boogiers.. I'm going to need your priceless assistance with regards to 3 things, so without further ado, let me go through my questions..

[I changed my mind, a bit of introduction first] I am currently on vacations until the second week of Jan 2011 so I eventually found the time to cope with my rack!!
First of all let me introduce you to my rig:
My guitar is plugged into a compressor (DBX 266XL which is kinda crappy or I don't know hot to set it up properly), then the signal goes to my Triaxis and there from its FX Loop Send the signal passes through my BBE 442 sonic maximiser, an Alesis 230 DEQ, a TC Electronics G-Force, an ESP Decimator noise reduction unit and finally the signal goes to the FX Loop Return of my Triaxis, then to the input of my 2:50, which in turns drives a 2X12 slanted recto cabinet.. My patches are controlled via an FCB 1010 midi foot controller and I possess a Furman power conditioner to protect all the aforementioned units..

1) I've got to admit that in the last few days I made quite an improvement regarding my patches (I don't plan to produce more than 5 of them for the clean sounds and 10 for the rhythm and solo sounds) but I still believe that there is room for more successful tones that Triaxis have to offer.. In addition, I'm working on an Andy Timmons cover and I desperately need to nail its "Deliver Us" tone.. I know in advance that Andy's a master of tone but so is Petrucci and Satch and I believe that I have created quite a replica of their sound (at least for my ears).. Do you have any ideas to share regarding how I'm going to set my Triaxis preset (and the FXs) so as to replicate Andy's tone on that song? I believe that many of you must have tried hard to produce such a patch and I would be quite happy if you could share it with us.. If it helps I have purchased a BB Xotic preamp that could possibly be added to the chain, if needs be.. I'm a bit reluctant to use Triaxis' clean channel (probably the colourless yellow??) as a foundation for this patch since I don't really believe that the "Deliver Us" tone is based on the "BB-preamp-in-front-of-a-clean-channel" pattern.. However, I would like to hear your thoughts about it..

2) Given that I haven't found any usefulness for my DBX compressor up to date, I'm thinking of purchasing a pedal-type compressor.. I have heard many pedal-type compressors on youtube and they seem to add boldness and chunkiness to the tone which I strongly lack for the time being.. Again any recommendations about a certain pedal-type compressor would be helpful..

3) Do you think that my tone could be improved from any changes in the signal path? I have heard a lot of guys swear by the use of the FXs in series and not within the power amp's FX Loop circuitry.. It's hard for me to try to change all these cables (unfortunately my free time is quite limited) and I would like to hear from someone who uses this setup..

Sorry for this surge of questions.. I play guitar for a long time but I never sat down to shape my tone meticulously.. I know I sound like a lazy guy but during the last 5 years, I've never had the chance to play more than 6-7 hours / month.. I feel a bit rusty when it comes to cables and connections so pardon my persistence..

 

[Jackie]

I apologize in advance. This post is not going to be very helpful, and I'm going to be rude. Ready?

GET RID OF THE SONIC MAXIMIZER. NOW.

Again, I'm sorry, but I flip my top when people even put a sonic maximizer near a guitar rig. It was not meant to be used with guitar equipment. It's like using slippers for playing ice-hockey.

 

[faser]

I apologize in advance. This post is not going to be very helpful, and I'm going to be rude. Ready?

GET RID OF THE SONIC MAXIMIZER. NOW.

Ouch!! That was rude and nasty!!

Seriously now, thanks for your advice Jackie, but I kinda like the sonic elements that BBE adds to my sound.. Whenever I make A/B comparisons with my BBE SM, I tend to appreciate it more.. It gives my tone the body that it's missing.. I used to set its treble and contour controls at 2-3 o'clock, but nowadays I leave them at 9-10 o'clock.. I believe that these values are the best settings this thing has to offer.. I don't actually rebut your saying that this unit was not designed to be used along with guitar rigs, but be that as it may, I cannot remove it from my gear.. Sorry, just a stubborn point of view of mine ..

 

[Jackie]

Right, "if it sounds good, it is good". I see that you use it with subtlety, and based on your post, you're no tone idiot - sorry for the expression, but a lot of folks that have the aforementioned unit are clueless about what to do with it and how to use it. Once (if) they realize it, they either throw it away or reduce their settings to about half...

I think it's best if you run your rig 100% dry and see how that sounds - then add stuff. I think it might be better to get a pedal-type comp that was designed with guitar signal in mind, like a Keeley comp or something, but most important of all, TRY it before you buy it. That saves a lot of dough.

Also, I think effects sound better if you put it through the TriAxis' FX loop, rather than the poweramp's.

I'm not an expert on the "Timmons tone", but if I were you, I'd use the BB with max level, almost 0 Gain and EQ to taste in front of the Lead 1 Green preset, not the clean one (especially the Orange, since it's cleaner-than-cleany-clean-clean to my ears). That way, you're putting more dirt to existing dirt, not a lot of dirt to no dirt.

OK, this post was a bit more useful, I hope. Sorry for my "attack" at the beginning, but I cringe every time I hear "Sonic Maximizer", that's my stubborn POV :lol:

 

[allphourus]

If you like and choose to keep the BBE in your signal path put it in last after the digital EQ and FX were it can compensate for the analog to digital and back to analog conversion that your signal goes through in them.

I have one ( an older BBE422A updated by BBE with newer chips ) and use it in my Triaxis rack system and love it.

BTW A/Bing it using the in/out button the front panel does not give you the real picture, it's not true bypass, part of the circuit is always in the signal path and it colors the sound for the worse when in bypass mode. Mine is almost always on, though I use it a little differently than you.

My rig is Three channels, first channel is straight guitar through compressor, Triaxis preamp into power amp out to center channel speaker(s), second channel output goes through Limiter to FX processor were it's split to stereo into BBE to stereo amp, out to speakers and to left and right. I never loose the integrity and tone of the original signal that way. It's always there full and vibrant
unaffected in the center channel.

As far as Andy Timmons ( Petrucci, Satch, Steve Via, Holdsworth, Stevie Ray, Santana, Larry Carlton, or even Jerry Garcia for that matter ) Tone is concerned I haven't the foggiest idea,, I'm more ,concerned with my Tone and what I have seemed to realize over the years is it's all in the left hand coming through the soul and not the equipment, these guys All sound just like themselves instantly Identifiable no matter what amp or guitar they're using at the moment. And one other point is that the Recording is quite often made using one set of equipment and the live performance is done on anther completely different rig. Hope this doesn't come off as being harsh and helps somehow in the larger picture. Play from the Heart, Work on getting the notes, technique and feel down and your more than half way there.

 

[faser]

Jackie, I feel like an idiot knowing that you thought that I was insulted by your first post.. My initial response was meant to be humorous (now I know I failed ) and I would be happy if any member in each forum of the world would argue that way.. That being said, you don't need to apologise for anything..

About the Keeley compressor you mentioned, unfortunately I haven't seen anyone of these in Europe.. They seem to be sold only in the U.S., thus it will be impossible for me to try one before the purchase.. However, I've heard only but the best regarding their quality and usefulness, so I might do what I know best! Buy it before I try it!!

Actually I made a mistake mentioning that I'm using my 2:50's FX Loop to intervene my FXs.. In fact, I'm using the Triaxis' loop (as you suggested) and that's why I was a bit concerned on how the hell my Triaxis "Loop SW" button was working if I wasn't using its Loop..

Thanks for the Timmons' suggestions.. I give them a try and report back.. To be honest, I'm facing a major problem with my BB.. When I'm using it with my practice amp (a small 15W combo) everything is working properly, but when I'm using it with my rack, all hell breaks loose.. A loud buzz and an irritating hiss cover my notes to the point that this sound is not musical at all.. I'll try to fix this today because it's a shame.. Btw, do you have the BB preamp as well?

Allphourus, first of all thx for your response and congrats on that rig of yours.. Very versatile this 3-channel thing you created there.. I'm looking fwd to the day I'm gonna buy myself a second cabinet and program the pan feature of my G-Force so I can hear the delay coming from each speakers at a different delay times.. You can't beat this, can you?? It sounds almost insane

I'm happy you like your BBE as well.. I'm really interested in your own settings of the treble and contour knobs, if you want to share them of course.. I can surmise that you are turning the contour knob a bit more to the right (compared to my 9-10 'o clock positions), because doing the same for the treble knob, tends to create a very "pointy" and "trebly" sound, at least in my setup..

Finally, you are very right about the unique player's characteristics comment.. Andy is a shiny example of how a pair of talented hands can produce the same tone with two different rigs.. The Resolution CD was recorded with Marshalls while the same tone can be heard in many of his videos around in which he plays with Boogies.. But to make things much more clearer, I would be the happiest man on Earth if i could reproduce that Lonestar mid-to-high gain tone.. This sound is so **** round and fat and saturated that actually each note sounds like a full chord!! I would give even $700 for a tech to accommodate this sound in my Triaxis' LD1R channel.. Now that I'm thinking it, it would be awesome if we could order our custom Triaxis with our own favourite amp sounds!!

 

[Jackie]

Nah, I wasn't offended, I always try to be a bit careful since we're "talking" in text here, it's kinda hard to get the "tone" (no pun intended) right when writing. Back to the sound stuff:

Btw, do you have the BB preamp as well?

My bandmate uses his BB Preamp in front of his ENGL Powerball as a gain box. I tried it with my rig and once again discovered that I'm not the type to put pedals in front of a high-gainer. It is a good sounding pedal that can complement anything if set up right, sounds more transparent than most boost/OD pedals, keeps the "core tone" more or less the same. Probably why they named it a "preamp".

Your noise issue is probably a power supply one - my bandmate used a cheap wall-wart adapter and it hummed, hissed and squealed like crazy. After he bought a nice power supply (Dunlop DC Brick) it was as quiet as a gain box can get. Do take that into consideration.

And of course, I do agree that a player's tone depends a lot on the hands, but I was like :shock: when you mentioned the Resolution CD was recorded on Marshalls - do you know which one perhaps? Sounds like I might be turning to the JVM for Timmons-tone approximations then :lol:

 

[faser]

Me too.. I'm not actually a pedal guy but after I bought a wah, a whammy pedal and a volume pedal, I got myself a plain pedalboard to put all these on.. Then I thought that it would be a great idea if I could build a clone pedal - just for the fun.. After that, I heard the BB on a friend of mine and I kinda envied it.. I ended up with 5 pedals (plus a midi foot controller and a potential compressor stompbox) so I can't claim that I don't like pedals anymore ..

As far as the Resolution recordings, you can read more details here: http://www.eqmag.com/article/andy-timmons-details/oct-07/31777
It seems that the recto cabinet is "strong" enough to affect significantly the final sound.. With the Resolution's example, we can teach ourselves that in a studio environment, engineers and producers could use a cheap Behringer and turn it to a Diezel without any problem if they wanted to..

 

[Jackie]

As far as the Resolution recordings, you can read more details here: http://www.eqmag.com/article/andy-timmons-details/oct-07/31777
It seems that the recto cabinet is "strong" enough to affect significantly the final sound.. With the Resolution's example, we can teach ourselves that in a studio environment, engineers and producers could use a cheap Behringer and turn it to a Diezel without any problem if they wanted to..

Awesome link. Timmons seems to share my "use as less producing gunk as possible" philosophy here. Thanks a bunch!!!

Yeah, I maybe say "I'm not a pedal guy" in a wide sense. I don't dig sticking any tone-affecting drive pedals or comps in front of my amp, I like wah, whammy, modulation stuff etc., I just think I need a bunch of expensive pedals if I can have a MFX that does the same thing almost as good.

Like Allphourus said, try and find a Timmons tone that sounds the most Timmons to YOU. That is the best way of not just "playing Andy Timmons", you play an Andy Timmons song, everyone can still clearly hear that it's YOU who does the playing

 

[ljbarbeau]

I think you should use your fx between the triaxis and the power amp instead of the loop. it sounds better to my hear at least. I use a g-system with my triaxis so its kinda close to your setup. only downside is you cant hard bypass it. but I dont mind..

on the bbe topic. I used to have a gcx and a bbe 482i and I did test how "real" the bypass button in the front worked. and to my hear i couldn't hear a difference between bypassed by the GCX or the bbe itself. but in the end I sold it anyway... I found a good equalizer to be more versatile. now if I could only have enough money to buy midi equalizer. now that would be the sh!t...

 

[masque]

as you have mentioned already the resolution cd was actually recorded with old marshall's and bk butler tube driver.

for me I have found that I the only way i can come close to mimicking that tone is thru the lead one red on the triaxis.

every rig, guitar and player are different but try something like this and then tweak for your individual tastes'

lead 1 red

treble: 0
mid: 7-8
bass: 5-6
gain: 6.5
drive: 2-3
presence: 0
DV: 0

then I would use the BB in front of the preamp with the gain at about 10-11 o'clock......treble at about 9-10 o'clock and bass at noon. volume around noon or set to be noticeable when it kicks on but not overpowering.

 

[allphourus]

as you have mentioned already the resolution cd was actually recorded with old marshall's and bk butler tube driver.

for me I have found that I the only way i can come close to mimicking that tone is thru the lead one red on the triaxis.

every rig, guitar and player are different but try something like this and then tweak for your individual tastes'

lead 1 red

treble: 0
mid: 7-8
bass: 5-6
gain: 6.5
drive: 2-3
presence: 0
DV: 0

then I would use the BB in front of the preamp with the gain at about 10-11 o'clock......treble at about 9-10 o'clock and bass at noon. volume around noon or set to be noticeable when it kicks on but not overpowering.

:?:
Do you have the original Ld1 red circuit or the recto mod cathode follower circuit ?

 

[faser]

Jackie, I'm sure you'll love hearing this update

I just dumped my BBE!! During my last practice session, I found that it was the BBE which was producing a very peculiar, annoying and digital "ghost note" so to speak (and I'm not a drummer ).. I don't know how to describe it in better terms, but with the BBE engaged, there was a "digitised voice" following my playing especially in the neck's middle position (frets #5 - #9) and chords (A, D and G) which seemed to disappear when I was switching the BBE off.. I spent a lot of time twisting the knobs but finally I couldn't pass over it.. I drew it off my rack (however, I have to mention that I didn't notice any drastic change on the signal's quality compared to the BBE in the off position) and from now I'll try to boost these frequencies with my rackmount eq..

I've got to admit that now I feel elated and sad at the same time.. I am happy because finally, I found the culprit (I had spotted this annoying "digital ghost note" many times in the past), but also sad because I was always fond of BBE's sonic capabilities.. I hope that my Alesis DEQ230 will do the job equally well..

 

[Jackie]

What matters is that you DID find the culprit and it sounds better now, regardless of what it was - I think you'll do just fine with the EQ. I think other users have said that the BBE actually mid scoops the sound, which is definitely what I heard on some youtube videos, so you might to try that. Or even better, just go from 0 to max on each slider to get familiar with it, then ear-tweak - I got my tone when I bought an MXR 10 band for my JVM in 10 minutes flat and I've kept that curve ever since.

 

[masque]

as you have mentioned already the resolution cd was actually recorded with old marshall's and bk butler tube driver.

for me I have found that I the only way i can come close to mimicking that tone is thru the lead one red on the triaxis.

every rig, guitar and player are different but try something like this and then tweak for your individual tastes'

lead 1 red

treble: 0
mid: 7-8
bass: 5-6
gain: 6.5
drive: 2-3
presence: 0
DV: 0

then I would use the BB in front of the preamp with the gain at about 10-11 o'clock......treble at about 9-10 o'clock and bass at noon. volume around noon or set to be noticeable when it kicks on but not overpowering.

:?:
Do you have the original Ld1 red circuit or the recto mod cathode follower circuit ?

recto mod