Tremoverb combo hum on both channels

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DS-1

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Hi guys!

A couple of days ago I took a '95 Tremoverb combo in very good conditions. It came with Electro Harmonix tubes (6L6 power tubes) ad it sounds very good. But there are a couple of things that aren't clear to me.

I'm a.3ch Triple Recto user from 2005, so I did quick A/B test between the 3ch and the tremoverb (using the same 2x12 vertical Mesa cab) and I've noticed that:

- on the red channel, modern mode, the tremoverb seems to have less gain than the 3ch recto. Is have to crank to max to have the gain I want. On the 3ch, 2 o clock is good for me;

- there is a hum on both channel. If I move the reverb knob, there is a sort of white noise that sums with the hum. If I put the reverb knob at 0, or even with the reverb tank disconnected, I can hear only the hum.

The sound of the tremoverb is very good for my tastes, but I'd like to resolve these two issues.

I've tried changing v1 and v5 with no results.

Have you got any tip to try to understand where the problem is?

Thanks in advance for the reply!
 
Do you know how long it has been since the amp was serviced and/or had a retube? When I get a used amp, regardless of the history of the amp, I do a full cleaning of the jacks, tube sockets, etc and examine the tubes to see if any have obvious signs of issues. Make sure that all the tubes are the correct type, as yes, I have seen people put 5751 tubes, which are lower gain, into amplifiers if they want less gain and a different feel. This can also be done with some other types of preamp tubes but they are not otherwise electrically equivalent to the 7025 / 12AX7 / ECC83 tubes, so it is often not recommended.
 
Hi guys!

A couple of days ago I took a '95 Tremoverb combo in very good conditions. It came with Electro Harmonix tubes (6L6 power tubes) ad it sounds very good. But there are a couple of things that aren't clear to me.

I'm a.3ch Triple Recto user from 2005, so I did quick A/B test between the 3ch and the tremoverb (using the same 2x12 vertical Mesa cab) and I've noticed that:

- on the red channel, modern mode, the tremoverb seems to have less gain than the 3ch recto. Is have to crank to max to have the gain I want. On the 3ch, 2 o clock is good for me;

- there is a hum on both channel. If I move the reverb knob, there is a sort of white noise that sums with the hum. If I put the reverb knob at 0, or even with the reverb tank disconnected, I can hear only the hum.

The sound of the tremoverb is very good for my tastes, but I'd like to resolve these two issues.

I've tried changing v1 and v5 with no results.

Have you got any tip to try to understand where the problem is?

Thanks in advance for the reply!
Probably needs a filtercap job for the hum. That amp has a drier type of gain. It's not as fizzy as the newer amps. That's why they are so revered. The ref is even better. So what you are missing in the gain department is the ugly fizzy top end distortion that the 3 channel has. Also try using boogie spax7 tubes in the gain stage positions. I use them in all 12 ax7 slots. They are the least noise 12ax7 tubes that boogie has. I have a rev g tremoverb now and just did a cap job on it. Cleaned up the hum. I use to have a rev f that was amazing and I traded years ago for a roadster and regretted it every since. Even the multiwatt reborn didn't sound as good as the rev f. But you live and learn. Hope this helps.
 
Do you know how long it has been since the amp was serviced and/or had a retube? When I get a used amp, regardless of the history of the amp, I do a full cleaning of the jacks, tube sockets, etc and examine the tubes to see if any have obvious signs of issues. Make sure that all the tubes are the correct type, as yes, I have seen people put 5751 tubes, which are lower gain, into amplifiers if they want less gain and a different feel. This can also be done with some other types of preamp tubes but they are not otherwise electrically equivalent to the 7025 / 12AX7 / ECC83 tubes, so it is often not recommended.
The amp was retubed around one year ago and not used so often. All tubes seem to be in a good condition. They are all Electro Harmonix.
Are EHX good (in the preamp section) for the cathode follower question? I know that Mesa tells that chinese preamp tubes need to be used to avoid cathode follower issues and instead should be avoided russian tubes. Are EHX to be considered as russian one? All preamp tubes are 12ax7EH, the ones with the yellow printing.
 
Probably needs a filtercap job for the hum. That amp has a drier type of gain. It's not as fizzy as the newer amps. That's why they are so revered. The ref is even better. So what you are missing in the gain department is the ugly fizzy top end distortion that the 3 channel has. Also try using boogie spax7 tubes in the gain stage positions. I use them in all 12 ax7 slots. They are the least noise 12ax7 tubes that boogie has. I have a rev g tremoverb now and just did a cap job on it. Cleaned up the hum. I use to have a rev f that was amazing and I traded years ago for a roadster and regretted it every since. Even the multiwatt reborn didn't sound as good as the rev f. But you live and learn. Hope this helps.
It seems that the gain comes out as I turn up the channel master, while in the 3ch, the gain is there at lower channel master levels.
Despite this, tremoverb red channel is very articulated. It sounds less compressed to me and I really like it. I just want to understand if there's something to be fixed to have a little bit more of gain, or it just sounds like this.
 
The amp was retubed around one year ago and not used so often. All tubes seem to be in a good condition. They are all Electro Harmonix.
Are EHX good (in the preamp section) for the cathode follower question? I know that Mesa tells that chinese preamp tubes need to be used to avoid cathode follower issues and instead should be avoided russian tubes. Are EHX to be considered as russian one? All preamp tubes are 12ax7EH, the ones with the yellow printing.
I could use a brushing up on preamp tubes but EHX = New Sensor = St. Petersburgh, Putinpieceofsh!tland

I believe

Too bad since that city used to be known for quality tubes but I think you want this one:
 

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I could use a brushing up on preamp tubes but EHX = New Sensor = St. Petersburgh, Putinpieceofsh!tland

I believe

Too bad since that city used to be known for quality tubes but I think you want this one:
These are the tubes that are in the Tremoverb:

20231201_195026.jpg20231201_195018.jpg
 
The amp was retubed around one year ago and not used so often. All tubes seem to be in a good condition. They are all Electro Harmonix.
Are EHX good (in the preamp section) for the cathode follower question? I know that Mesa tells that chinese preamp tubes need to be used to avoid cathode follower issues and instead should be avoided russian tubes. Are EHX to be considered as russian one? All preamp tubes are 12ax7EH, the ones with the yellow printing.
EHX tubes are really not good for use in a Tremoverb or other Rectifier, especially if you use "Spongy" mode. They are Russian New Sensor / Saratov Russia production, which means they have the Spiral Filaments that don't tolerate the high cathode to filament voltage seen in a Cathode Follower, nor do they like being run at a lower voltage, which makes them run so cold that they fail to emit.
There are two cathode follower positions in the Tremoverb: V3 and V4.

If it was my Tremoverb, I would swap out all the preamp tubes for JJ, Chinese, or Sovtek 12AX7WA/WB/WC tubes. Those last ones are the only tubes that the New Sensor plant makes that still have traditional filaments. They will not be affected by the issues that the spiral filament tubes are.
 
EHX tubes are really not good for use in a Tremoverb or other Rectifier, especially if you use "Spongy" mode. They are Russian New Sensor / Saratov Russia production, which means they have the Spiral Filaments that don't tolerate the high cathode to filament voltage seen in a Cathode Follower, nor do they like being run at a lower voltage, which makes them run so cold that they fail to emit.
There are two cathode follower positions in the Tremoverb: V3 and V4.

If it was my Tremoverb, I would swap out all the preamp tubes for JJ, Chinese, or Sovtek 12AX7WA/WB/WC tubes. Those last ones are the only tubes that the New Sensor plant makes that still have traditional filaments. They will not be affected by the issues that the spiral filament tubes are.
What is called "Chinese 12ax7" can be a specific brand, or any generic Chinese 12ax7 preamp tube?
 
What is called "Chinese 12ax7" can be a specific brand, or any generic Chinese 12ax7 preamp tube?
There are mesa labelled ones from the 90's - Shuguang 9th generation.

A tube seller might have some- they may be getting more scarce these days. At 1st people scoffed at MIC but now they are coveted.
 
There are a specific Military Grade Chinese 12AX7 tube that Mesa used back in the late 80's through the 90's. Often referred to as the Beijing Square Foil Getter tube. Their part number was 6N4-J. Ruby has sold them as there is still a supply of them. They were not made by Shuguang but they did start producing similar looking tubes. Different construction and had a round halo getter. Usually sold by Ruby or Penta Labs, I only had three of them as part of a retube set, they were super microphonic I could not use them. There are other Chinese tubes offered by Ruby which is more of a 7025 variant. Not a bad tube. I much prefer the Beijing Square Foil Getter tube, 6N4-J or Chinese Military grade Beijing tube. They look like this:
20180624_070447.jpg
20180624_070610.jpg


The one's with the halo getter are also referenced as Silver Specials. They are not the same tube. The first picture has the Mesa tubes on the left and the Ruby on the right. Best set of tubes I ever used in the Roadster, tightened up the low end and I can actually use a 7-string without all the mud. It actually sounds really sic for that sinister character of the low B. I much favor the STR440 tubes, usually in the yellow bias color or red bias color (these actually sounded really good). The next best option would be the STR445, I would not go higher than yellow bias color as that resulted in a distorted clean channel. Red or yellow for the Mesa STR445.

As for the EHX tubes, they are Russian tubes. It is just a trade name owned by New Sensor that manufactures their tubes at the Saratov factory, called Reflektor. I think the factory name changed a while back. Tubes made in St. Petersburg were made by SED aka Svetlana Electron Devices, however back in the 90's New Sensor bought the Svetlana trade name so those tubes are made by Reflektor and not Svetlana in St. Petersburg. If you ever see SED =C=, those tubes were made in St. Petersburg. They stopped production of consumer products sometime around 2012-2013. In my opinion the SED =C= EL34 and the 6L6GC were some of the best sounding power tubes next to the Sylvania STR415 or RCA black plate tubes. They did manufacture 12AX7 tubes but were not known for having a good preamp tube.

New Sensor tubes out of NY, broker tubes made by Reflektor in Saratov Russia: Mullard, EHx, Tung Sol, Gold Lion, Svetlana, Sovtec, and Reflektor brands. I am probably missing something in the list. Most are good tubes but not always compatible with the tone stack driver (DC coupled cathode follower) usually in the V3 position and the FX tube typically found in V4 or V5 depending if the amp has a tube driven reverb circuit like the Roadster.

V3 is the DC coupled cathode follower tone stack driver. V4 is for the FX loop, one triode is a cathode follower. V4B. This amp is different than the Roadster, V5A is the driver tube for the reverb tank but V1B is the recovery stage. V6 is the phase inverter.

What can add noise to the sound: any of the preamp tubes. I found that many of the Russian tubes tend to generate a low frequency hum (EH, Tung Sol, Mullards) this usually occurs after a few months of use. They usually do not age in silence. Not always true, depends on the heater source.

The Rectifier tubes are also contributors. Even when using Diode tracking, the 5U4GB tubes are still in the power circuit and will provide rectified current as they will be operating in parallel. As they age, they will create noise.

The other Chinese tubes if I can recall come from Ruby or Preferred series, generally classified as 7025 tubes but are the same thing as a 12AX7 or ECC83.

The last source of noise will be the Power tubes.

Sounds like you may need some preamp tubes to start with Don't forget the 5U4GB rectifiers either. If you can find the Beijing Military Grade Square Foil getter tubes, great, may be harder to find than it seems. Note that some people have been selling them but I can tell they were near end of life, there are two mica spacers just above the plates, if that area is black or silver and not clear, they are well used tubes. That area becomes discolored over time.

Another difficult tube to get are the Mesa (JJ ECC83s) tubes. They sell out quickly when the inventory comes into the market. I waited almost 6 months to get the STR445 tubes and 4 months to get the Mesa 12AX7. The lead time for the STR445 tubes is long, Sweetwater no longer has them listed as items to purchase. AMS had them listed as active, but the lead time was longer than expected.

Places that sell Mesa gear should have the tubes as well. The STR448 may not be to your liking, I tried them in my MWDR and Roadster and did not care for the character.
 
"Silver Specials" are a special variant of the 9th Generation Chinese 12AX7 out of Shuguang that have shiny silver plates. I have a few somewhere, along with some regular 9th Gen Shuguangs.

Right now I'm also thankful I went kinda nuts buying tubes a few years pre-pandemic, as right now even the "cheap" tubes are getting expensive.
 
Ok, after reading all your precious posts and made some other research, I've swapped the v5 tube with a JJ and the main big hum coming from the reverb disappeared.

A couple of days ago, I've made a combo to head conversion of this Tremoverb. I had the issue that the stock reverb tank made the amp sound VERY noisy (I don't know how Mesa made this amp sound "accettable" with the tank so near to the transformers, or it's just my Tremoverb), so I swapped the main tank with a smaller TAD tank. Now the reverb is nice and clean and the amp is not that noisy.

Still having the same feel about the gain difference between Tremoverb and Triple Recto, as I told some posts ago. Setting the high pot to higher levels, it seems that a little bit of gain is now coming in.
 

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