Tone vs. Playing Skill?

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lespaulguy32

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Hey guys... I feel like I have not been focusing on my playing as much as my tone. I have been really self-conscious about it, and I feel bad. When I go to a guitar store, and I try out gear, I feel nervous that I suck. I sound fine at gigs and at home or practicing with my band, but when I demo gear at a store, I get a nervous feeling. I hear dudes next to me and I feel like I suck, because I don't sweep pick and do crazy shredding **** like that. I'm not even into metal. I'm into grunge, and funk/reggae stuff. I'm 14, and I started playing when I was 6. It gets me down because I have been playing for quite a while, and I wish my lead skills were better. I can improvise pretty well, and my lead skills aren't too bad. Though, my former guitar teacher pretty much disliked everything I liked, and told me I wouldn't get anywhere with the stuff I like. I know my peers have said I'm good, and I've had a few people ask me to be in their band, but when I come up to those dudes who have been playing for decades, I feel much inferior, as if I'm worthless at what I do. I've been confused about what I really should solely focus on. Tone, or playing?

Is there any advice anyone could give me?
 
First of all, you should never feel self-conscious about your playing. Not everyone wants to be the next Jeff Beck. Most people pick up an instrument b/c they enjoy playing, it's fun, and it makes them feel good. Also I know many excellent players who, when they try out gear at music stores don't necessarily "shred" all the time.

With that said, you should play in the style that YOU enjoy, whatever that is. However (and it's just my opinion), you may want to focus on playing first and tone second. That doesn't mean ignoring it completely. I guess things are different today and I don't mean it in a bad way. I've been playing for almost 40 years now and when I was your age tone never factored into my playing. I think it was just the era ('70's & early 80's). You plugged into a Marshall or a Fender (among others) and cranked it with a good distortion pedal. Today there are many more choices and amps are more complicated.

Bottom line, play what makes you happy, play it well and forgot what others think.

Good luck and have fun.
 
Practice Practice practice!

You got a lot going for you! You're young, you're in a band and you got top equipment. And most of all you are conscious of your ability and know there's improvement. There's some who's ego is so big they don't realize they're 0kay shredder but we hear better but they assume they're better.

Try this: video yourself playing. Playback and listen. Note your timing and how you play your leads. For me, I never realize I'm rough around the edges because when playing with a band, they set the timing and they somewhat mask your playing.

But when you video tape yourself alone, its only you and you can't hide. It's your ability. When you note your timing is rough or your lead is shaky, that's what you improve upon. This is one of many tips.

There's tons of suggestions and everyone will start chiming in. :wink:
 
tone,fingers,picks,pickups,tubes,intervals,chords,moods,etc...all a part of the chain-focus on everything,grasshopper 8)
-as youngsters so many of us fall/fell into the technique trap-forget about guitar playing being an "athletic event"...it is NOT...and it becomes a dick contest for many(and many never progress even as the yrs go by...)
-it can be a strong persuader, so let it motivate you...don't let it engulf you
-wanking in public...there ought to be a law!
never forget why you fell in love with the instrument to begin with, and screw 'em
 
lesterpaul said:
tone,fingers,picks,pickups,tubes,intervals,chords,moods,etc...all a part of the chain-focus on everything,grasshopper 8)
-as youngsters so many of us fall/fell into the technique trap-forget about guitar playing being an "athletic event"...it is NOT...and it becomes a dick contest for many(and many never progress even as the yrs go by...)
-it can be a strong persuader, so let it motivate you...don't let it engulf you
-wanking in public...there ought to be a law!
never forget why you fell in love with the instrument to begin with, and screw 'em

All this and more....... When I have good tone, I play better. When I play good, I have better tone. They feed upon each other. :wink: That "grasshopper" comment probably went way over your head. :lol:
 
Ha, guitar playing is totally a dick waving contest AHAHAHA!!!

Advice? Well, practicing is good. My approach to practicing is to try and learn something new each time I pick up my guitar.

To practice lead playing and improvising, I'll play along (Badly) with Jazz standards to practice playing clean. I also practice blues / classic rock style low gain lead playing as well as high gain lead playing. The trick is to always try and change things up to keep my touch sensitive and fluid.
I also do a gamut of warmup exercises as well as scales, sequences, and arpeggios. The long term trick is to be able to hear music in your head and play it.

To stimulate creativity, listen to and learn as many different styles of music as possible. Don't pay attention to the guy who can play pentatonic hammer ons, pulloffs, and triplets really fast. If you can actually play MUSIC on your instrument, you're well ahead of them.

If you want to be in a band, learn music theory and study music. Start writing music. Write riffs, chord progressions, and start writing melodies. Don't worry if they suck at first, just keep trying. If you build your musicianship then you'll be a valuable asset in a band, much moreso than the guy who can cover metallica solos perfectly at four times the speed.
 
I've interacted with several guitarists who could play faster than Jimmy Page, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Joe Perry, Angus Young...

You get the point? 8)
 
I've been playing for 25 years (and not just once in a while). A few weeks ago, I was in a GC, and there was a 16 year old kid pounding out the SRV with perfection, and then some.

I thought, if only I could go back in time, I'd learn SRV rather than poison, motley crew, etc....HAHA. (Some artists are timeless, other's not so much).

Anyways - in the vein of the OP, I can hold my own in a gig situation, but quite frankly when I'm at home I noodle around basically doing exercises rather than learning other artists stuff. I studiously avoid listening to the radio because I don't want my creativity to be influenced by it. Most of my songwriting is on acoustic guitar and piano anyways. The fancy guitar **** is mostly about showing off, not musically necessity,

I spend a hell of a lot of time screwing with my amps and cabs, etc. (trying to find the tone that will inspire me back to my youth). My picking/fretting coordination is finally getting better. I'm almost as good as my ex-bandmate buddy was when he was 18 years old. He quit as a virtuoso 20 year old, and i'm still playing, and playing LIVE, 20 years later. So, turtoise and the hare thing.


So, if you got chops, but can't play the latest drop D version of white noise, who cares. Learn the guitar the way you want to, and when you're on stage, take risks and let it all hang out. Truth is, we all want to be better than we are, and we can always find someone better than we are.

Some of the most creative and musically interesting pieces I've ever heard were from guys who didn't know anything about music theory and they just followed their ears.
 
Well, I've gotta say I feel a whole lot better after reading these... All of you said something that made me realize that the whole dick waving contest thing is pretty true... :p and that I should really love it for why I fell in love with it in the first place. I love how I feel when I play it. When I'm sick or not feeling well, playing makes me feel ten times better! I love the all-around sound of the guitar. My music theory is complete ****, and my former guitar teacher gave me a lot of grief about it, but I really don't care. I'm going to follow my ears like I have for the past 8 years, and learn theory second. Thank you, guys. :)
 
Tommy_G said:
Anyways - in the vein of the OP, I can hold my own in a gig situation, but quite frankly when I'm at home I noodle around basically doing exercises rather than learning other artists stuff. I studiously avoid listening to the radio because I don't want my creativity to be influenced by it. Most of my songwriting is on acoustic guitar and piano anyways. The fancy guitar sh!t is mostly about showing off, not musically necessity,

Gosh, I avoid the radio like the plague, mostly because there is hardly ever anything interesting on it. That being said, it is always good to listen to music as part of learning the craft. Studying music you find 'interesting' can always open up unexplored avenues for creativity i.e. it can expand your musical language. To use the analogy of cooking, a lot of songwriters learn how to make a damn good chili by seasoning to taste but they really cannot do much else other than that. By contrast, a trained chef can make a gourmet meal from just about any combination of ingredients. It is all what you want to do.

The 'interesting' thing about learning someone elses music is that they think about the instrument in a different way. It can be easy to fall into the trap of using the same licks every day while playing. While it is good to build up your own individual musical vocabulary, it can also be detrimental when you only know 10 or 20 words.

I spend a hell of a lot of time screwing with my amps and cabs, etc. (trying to find the tone that will inspire me back to my youth). My picking/fretting coordination is finally getting better. I'm almost as good as my ex-bandmate buddy was when he was 18 years old. He quit as a virtuoso 20 year old, and i'm still playing, and playing LIVE, 20 years later. So, turtoise and the hare thing.

Yes, there is more to playing music than a prodigious growth in technique / facility.

So, if you got chops, but can't play the latest drop D version of white noise, who cares. Learn the guitar the way you want to, and when you're on stage, take risks and let it all hang out. Truth is, we all want to be better than we are, and we can always find someone better than we are.

Yup. The Beatles were not the greatest players.

Some of the most creative and musically interesting pieces I've ever heard were from guys who didn't know anything about music theory and they just followed their ears.

While this can be true, I find that more often than not, the most facile music is written by people who eschew the rigors of music study in lieu of following their ears. This argument is like saying "some of the most brilliant minds were not schooled so I don't need education to be successful in life." It is flawed and I don't buy it. Yes, one should always use one's ear to write music just as one should use taste as a guiding principle when cooking. But, it is errant to presume that being enriched with knowledge on how music can be structured will automatically rob one of the spark of creativity.

Furthermore, it is also incorrect to assume that people who have studied music theory do NOT follow their ears. I find that more often than not, I use my training to tell me why my ear doesn't like something I wrote. It's useful to solve problems when one encounters a road block.

Anyway, bringing up the 'theory' word is a huge can of worms. I think guitarists usually think theory refers to knowing where the notes are on the guitar, knowing one's scales, chords, arpeggios, etc. This is helpful since the more scales and modes you know, the more spices you have to cook with. BUT, this is not all of what music theory is.

There is also
rudiments: The basics. Where the notes are on a staff, the names of chords, intervals, key signatures, meters, rhythms, etc.

Harmony: The relationship between notes. Basically, looking at how music is organized vertically and horizontally. This is what I believe more guitarists need to learn. If this was the case, we wouldn't have to many bands pounding out the same four chords over and over again.

Counterpoint: This is tricky to explain to non music majors but basically, it involves studying the harmonic relationships within a musical line and between multiple musical lines. Definitely an interesting skill and VERY useful for working with large instrumental forces. It's a great way to exercise one's music writing chops.

Analysis: This is another skill that is useful for guitarists / songwriters to learn. Basically, it involves studying how music is put together. You not only can tell if you like something or not, but also what it is exactly you like about it.

So, what's the takeaway message here?

1) Learn everything you can about music and keep an open mind. Remaining willfully obstinate about studying an integral part of your craft will only hamper your growth in the long run.

2) Study as many different types of music as you possibly can. Expand your listening experience will give you more ideas which will help with being a unique and original creative entity.

3) Theory is a tool. Learning music theory will only make you a better musician.

Everyone, please be aware that the word 'theory' is misleading in this application. It is more like 'grammar' than physics. For some reason, guitarists get the impression that learning music theory will be learning about the 'right' and 'wrong' of music. There is no such thing. The sooner this myth is put to rest the better, but somehow I doubt it ever well be.
 
There's a lot of really good advice here...for lots of folks - not just the OP. To me, playing guitar is a lifelong thing. I've had one in my hands since I was 8 years old and now I'm in my mid-fifties, and I'm not planning on setting it aside...EVER. I'm pretty critical of myself sometimes, feeling I should be a lot better than I am for all this time I've been playing, but I play for me...I sound the way I want to sound; and it's taken a LONG time to get here (thank you Mesa!). But the journey is a lot of fun, as is the learning...that's what I think YellowJacket is trying to say...better than I can any day! It seems that every time I play with someone, I always learn something new and I think that's the best part!

Sooo... Lespaulguy32, go out and play and don't worry about those other guys. Let them worry about you!! :mrgreen:
 
I always feel under the microscope when playing in a guitar store. I usually compensate for it by playing solid yet non-flashy material (Black Sabbath, Alice in Chains, etc) and/or playing songs the average radio listener has probably never heard (Melvin's, Kyuss, etc).

I find a lot of the dudes that noodle in stores have really poor senses of rhythm and timing, so playing solid songs with lots of groove is my way of feeling better about myself.
 
screamingdaisy said:
I always feel under the microscope when playing in a guitar store. I usually compensate for it by playing solid yet non-flashy material (Black Sabbath, Alice in Chains, etc) and/or playing songs the average radio listener has probably never heard (Melvin's, Kyuss, etc).

I find a lot of the dudes that noodle in stores have really poor senses of rhythm and timing, so playing solid songs with lots of groove is my way of feeling better about myself.

Yes, guitar stores are huge dick waving contests ALL the time. I compensate by playing super phat clean chords with lots of extensions, as well as extremely modal / chromatic quasi fusion style playing. I do something like that because it isn't the same hackneyed blues or metal triplet sequences that everyone likes to play.

Oh, forgot the MOST IMPORTANT piece of advice. I think others have talked about it already but it needs to be stated again because it is THAT important.

PLAY.
WITH.
OTHER.
PEOPLE.

Nothing is more helpful than this.
 
Thanks YellowJacket, good advice there.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I have 13 years of formal music training, mostly classical, including university level music theory and ear training courses. I may appear misguided probably because I'm so classically influenced that it is near inescapable for me, so maybe I "eschew" the training more than I reasonably should. Its part of that struggle to find a way to step out of the box your brain is wired around.

By contrary example, I have a prodigical nephew hitting his mid/late teens with only a very light dose of 'formal' training through pop music from school band. He composes, however, at a level I could never get to because he's able to flow in and out of scales and key changes without any thought as to the 'rules'. He doesn't even know he's doing it. His compositions follow a flow that is in an alternate reality to everything I've ever written, but I love his stuff - it is amazing and he may well be the best natural composer I've ever met. His musicianship is at a pretty early level, but his compositions are off the charts. His naive instincts are wired for creating music without boundaries, and yet it comes out, not as a child randomly hitting notes, but as incredibly sophisticated music. I'm not talking Schoenberg, either. I'm thinking something that sounds right and good but has that element of boundary-less-ness in the manner the music moves fluidly between recognizable structures. Maybe you have some suggestions for me on where to find that kind of music?

His background and approach reminds me that the 'science' we create for ourselves has as much benefit in helping us assert knowledge as it disadvantages us by creating psychological boundaries.

I don't think this assertion is out of character with the fine line that exists between the science and art of any trade, and the general gist of my earlier response was to bring this perspective into play.

Let natural talent morph first into style, and only then let it be studied.
 
Tommy_G said:
Thanks YellowJacket, good advice there.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I have 13 years of formal music training, mostly classical, including university level music theory and ear training courses. I may appear misguided probably because I'm so classically influenced that it is near inescapable for me, so maybe I "eschew" the training more than I reasonably should. Its part of that struggle to find a way to step out of the box your brain is wired around.

Well, that's part of the learning process. You work on your skill and then you throw it in the garbage in an attempt to be creative. When I hear the same tired licks in music stores everywhere across the country I can't help but think that this whole 'think outside the box' approach isn't working for most guitar players because their 'box' is so small.

By contrary example, I have a prodigical nephew hitting his mid/late teens with only a very light dose of 'formal' training through pop music from school band. He composes, however, at a level I could never get to because he's able to flow in and out of scales and key changes without any thought as to the 'rules'. He doesn't even know he's doing it. His compositions follow a flow that is in an alternate reality to everything I've ever written, but I love his stuff - it is amazing and he may well be the best natural composer I've ever met. His musicianship is at a pretty early level, but his compositions are off the charts. His naive instincts are wired for creating music without boundaries, and yet it comes out, not as a child randomly hitting notes, but as incredibly sophisticated music. I'm not talking Schoenberg, either. I'm thinking something that sounds right and good but has that element of boundary-less-ness in the manner the music moves fluidly between recognizable structures. Maybe you have some suggestions for me on where to find that kind of music?

Ha, I'm actually studying composition at the doctoral level right now and my lessons the last 2 + years have been about this specifically. I mean yes, I have been unlearning things I have learned but with the training I have, I can do things that people without training can't do, regardless of innate skill. (Consider the scientific limitations of orchestration, for example) There are a few new composers who write music like what you describe but, training or not, this is a rare amount of talent.

His background and approach reminds me that the 'science' we create for ourselves has as much benefit in helping us assert knowledge as it disadvantages us by creating psychological boundaries.

See, this is the problem. Music theory cannot be used to reverse engineer music compositions for the sake of redoing the same thing. My teacher tells me that Beethoven did not write in 'sonata form', neither did his contemporaries. These forms were the entirety of Beethoven's musical world so these were the boundaries that he was aware of.
I think the problem with music theory is that musicians get hung up on what can and can't be done rather than looking at the knowledge simply as tools that can be used. Personally, I think that music theory can sharpen one's ear and make it more reliable but it is a 'learn and then forget' kind of thing. When writing music there is no right and wrong. Rather, the only real concern is whether something 'does work' or 'does not work'.

Music theory should be allowed to be what it is already and it should be taught as such. It is a language which can be used to communicate with other musicians about the various features of music. Music theory does not exist to erect boundaries. Rather, it is a lamp which illuminates unstudied regions of music.

I don't think this assertion is out of character with the fine line that exists between the science and art of any trade, and the general gist of my earlier response was to bring this perspective into play.

Let natural talent morph first into style, and only then let it be studied.

Perhaps there is a fundamental error in the pedagogical approach of most music instructors. A bad one teaches rules pedantically while a good one will refine craftsmanship without imposing artificial limitations. I can go on for hours about this but I'll let you chew on this for now.

-yj
 
I'm open to suggestions on composers with that fluid music style.
 
This guy is still in his 20s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-5hDsDKJyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1vcNrV5HQ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Ds6jy2arI
 
Thanks for the links. I'll spend some time and download them to hear them. My slow(ish) internet connection won't stream them well.
 

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