Tone Help?

[CaptainMoose]

Hey guys, I was hoping to get a little advice for getting better tone from anyone who would be willing!

I've had my dual rectifier (with a Mesa 2x12) for about a year or so now and while I can get passable tones I'm still not 100% satisfied. I can always get awesome sounding tones at lower volumes but when I play with a drummer and have to turn up it always either ends up sounding muddy, piercing and/or really "hard". I'm not sure how else to describe it but at lower volumes it is like I can hear the grit whereas when its cranked it just sounds like a flat brick wall hitting my ears.

I'm terrible at trying to describe the tone I'm aiming for with the distortion channel but the guitar intro to this Neurosis song is pretty **** close: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OeN_4ZepPE I'm not necessarily trying to get this tone 100% exactly as he uses a Marshall JCM 800 but just something in the ballpark that I can tweak around with.

Right now I'm running it on channel 2, vintage at 100w. The rectifier is set to diode and the back switch is set to BOLD and it just has the stock tubes in it. The settings are PRESENCE: 7 o clock, MASTER: 10 o clock, GAIN: noon, BASS: 10, MID: 12, and TREBLE: 9:30. With the gain though I thought it sounded better running a Boss 7 Band EQ with about a 10dB boost instead of cranking the gain on the amp higher. I thought this sounded better. Also I'm using an Gibson SG with a Seymour Duncan treble pickup.

If anyone has any advice or setting suggestion it would be MUCH appreciated and I would forever be in your debt!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Bring the treble up and the mids down. You'll probably be able to add a bit more bass once you have the treble/midrange sorted out.

Stiffness is usually too much midrange.

For that specific sound I'd drop the gain on the amp down to around 10:00-11:00, then boost it back up with a tubescreamer. It's not a super high gain sound to start with (JCM800) and boosting will give you the more saturated attack.

 

[CaptainMoose]

Bring the treble up and the mids down. You'll probably be able to add a bit more bass once you have the treble/midrange sorted out.

Stiffness is usually too much midrange.

For that specific sound I'd drop the gain on the amp down to around 10:00-11:00, then boost it back up with a tubescreamer. It's not a super high gain sound to start with (JCM800) and boosting will give you the more saturated attack.

Hey thanks for the quick response! I'm gonna hop on there and try out your suggestion right now! Just curious though why is the Tubescreamer always suggested for use with the Dual Rec? Like is it just for the boost or does the pedal have a specific frequency response that is optimal for the amp? Would I be able to get the same effect with a Boss 7 band EQ used a clean boost or not? Thanks again!

 

[screamingdaisy]

I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, but IMO it's because while the Recto does produce a lot of distortion it doesn't produce a whole lot of saturation.

Boosting ups the compression/saturation and produces an attack similar to the one in the song you provided.

While boosting can be done with a clean boost I've never dug the results. They always felt too stiff/artificial. Something with more compassion typical feels better IMO, hence the popularity of the Tubescreamer. The Maxon OD-808 is generally the preferred choice as the mid voice of that pedal blends well with the Recto.

 

[CaptainMoose]

I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, but IMO it's because while the Recto does produce a lot of distortion it doesn't produce a whole lot of saturation.

Boosting ups the compression/saturation and produces an attack similar to the one in the song you provided.

While boosting can be done with a clean boost I've never dug the results. They always felt too stiff/artificial. Something with more compassion typical feels better IMO, hence the popularity of the Tubescreamer. The Maxon OD-808 is generally the preferred choice as the mid voice of that pedal blends well with the Recto.

Ahh I see. I took your advice and I got to thank you, it's already sounding quite a bit better! For now I'm just using my EQ to boost it and I think it sounds good but I'm going to look into a TS depending how much they want for one down at the local shop. Thanks again man!

 

[YellowJacket]

I've never heard someone complain about the high volume tone from a recto before :shock:
Typically, people complain about the buzzy tone at low volumes.

Screamingdaisy is right though, the recto is quite dynamic for a high gain head. Generally speaking, I find that as the volume goes up, the gain has to come down to compensate. Higher gain settings are for achieving more gain saturation when you can't crank the amp enough to get the phase inverter, OT, and Speakers involved in contributing roundness and grit to the tone. As you turn the gain down, there is less low end and mud, so overdriving things will add the compression and cut back in while the lower gain retains clarity and mid bark.

 

[CaptainMoose]

I've never heard someone complain about the high volume tone from a recto before :shock:
Typically, people complain about the buzzy tone at low volumes.

Screamingdaisy is right though, the recto is quite dynamic for a high gain head. Generally speaking, I find that as the volume goes up, the gain has to come down to compensate. Higher gain settings are for achieving more gain saturation when you can't crank the amp enough to get the phase inverter, OT, and Speakers involved in contributing roundness and grit to the tone. As you turn the gain down, there is less low end and mud, so overdriving things will add the compression and cut back in while the lower gain retains clarity and mid bark.

Lol I don't know what to say. His advice definitely helped though. I think there where a couple other things as well. Where we were practicing I couldn't set my amp on anything higher then my knees and the amp seems very directional. I also think the acoustics in that horrible box like room weren't doing it any favors either!

Turning down the gain like he suggested really seemed to do the trick though! With the gain set so high I was getting a more grind core type tone rather then the sludgier tone I was looking for.

While I'm here though would anyone have any suggestions for the clean and distorted tones on this Drive Like Jehu song? I'd love to dial those in for channels 1-2 but apparently I'm just **** at finding these tones lol.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NKEmD0XtAHo

I'd appreciate the help but I'm already extremely thankful for helping me find my main distortion tone!

 

[screamingdaisy]

I suspect that tone is a fuzz into a loud as f*ck amp with the guitar dialled back to clean it up.

I'd plug a fuzz into my tweed channel, but unless you have a Roadster/RK you don't have that option.

Alternatively, I'd use one of my high gain channels and dial the guitar volume back until it's into edge of breakup territory. The spot you're looking for is where picking lightly is mostly clean and picking heavy is distorted.

 

[CaptainMoose]

I suspect that tone is a fuzz into a loud as f*ck amp with the guitar dialled back to clean it up.

I'd plug a fuzz into my tweed channel, but unless you have a Roadster/RK you don't have that option.

Alternatively, I'd use one of my high gain channels and dial the guitar volume back until it's into edge of breakup territory. The spot you're looking for is where picking lightly is mostly clean and picking heavy is distorted.

That sounds like a good suggestion! I don't think it's a fuzz though, I always heard they never used pedals but just played loud as hell. There are pictures of them wearing airplane ear protectors during practice! lol I don't know how much of the song you listened to but theres this insane squealing feedback that I've never heard anyone do, supposedly it's from the guy holding guitar up to the tubes of his amp or something like that.

But anyway thanks again man, you've been a big help!

 

[CaptainMoose]

Hey, wasn't sure if I should post this in here or the rigs/tone forum but I just did a real quick recording with an SM57 and a cheap interface and was wondering if anyone wouldn't mind listening to it and giving me some suggestions? I think its decent enough to be passable but still lacks something... Anyway any suggestions on the tone would be much appreciated!

https://soundcloud.com/rsk-589775408/guitar-test

BTW I still haven't gotten a chance to check out getting a Tubescreamer but I am using my EQ to boost the signal. Also I used a filter to remove everything under 100 hz.

Just for a refresher I'm kinda going for a tone like this: https://youtu.be/2OeN_4ZepPE
Not necessarily that but something sludgy and somewhat aggressive without being totally over the top. Thanks again guys!

 

[CaptainMoose]

Sorry to bump my own thread but here is the same track but with the volume turned up.
https://soundcloud.com/rsk-589775408/guitar-test-louder

 

[screamingdaisy]

I think its decent enough to be passable but still lacks something... Anyway any suggestions on the tone would be much appreciated!

Just for a refresher I'm kinda going for a tone like this: https://youtu.be/2OeN_4ZepPE

The sample sounded great.

The Neurosis song was probably a Marshall through G12T-75s. G12Ts are more scooped than Vintage 30s. V30s are percussive and mid heavy with a rolled off top and bottom end. G12Ts are scooped with razor like top end and chunky palm mutes.

That tone is also likely double tracked at a minimum, has post-processing, and the guitar is being reinforced by the bass.

 

[CaptainMoose]

I think its decent enough to be passable but still lacks something... Anyway any suggestions on the tone would be much appreciated!

Just for a refresher I'm kinda going for a tone like this: https://youtu.be/2OeN_4ZepPE

The sample sounded great.

The Neurosis song was probably a Marshall through G12T-75s. G12Ts are more scooped than Vintage 30s. V30s are percussive and mid heavy with a rolled off top and bottom end. G12Ts are scooped with razor like top end and chunky palm mutes.

That tone is also likely double tracked at a minimum, has post-processing, and the guitar is being reinforced by the bass.

Awesome! Thanks again man! I get to doubting myself on things like this so a little positive reinforcement goes a long way!

I just had a buddy recommend doubling tracking the guitar as well.

Anyway I really appreciate all the help.