To much treble on 45 and 90

[SST]

Hey sorry to make my first post a troubleshooting question but I recently picked up a used Mark V combo 1x12. The guy I bought it from acquired it new in January and as far as I can tell it's in mint condition. I even have a copy of the original receipt. Not sure how much he playing it or how much the speakers are broken in but I assume it got very little use. The tubes are all original.

I am playing a 1991 strat plus with lace pickups and am getting unwieldy treble on the 45 and 90 watts setting in all three channels. I have the treble turned down to 9 and at times am completely turning it off to 7. The presence is all the way off to 7. This problem is slightly apparent at 10 watts but nothing near close to 45. 90 is a little better than 45 which is really ice picky. I've messed with the eq sliders and I can improve things a bit but it seems I have to thin and dull the sound out too much by lowering almost all the upper frequencies. The problem is there with clean and gain.

I've tried it with my American Deluxe Tele with SCN pickups which in my opinion are really bassy and still the treble is there.

I have this ABY'd with a Vox AC 30 Heritage (JJ tubes) with Alnico blues speakers and with both amps facing me on stands the treble difference if notably apparent with the Mark V.

I've read through the entire board and have seen a few people have had similar problems. Not sure if it a problem with single coils but I wouldn't expect this much more treble especially compared to an AC30. I know to expect more treble at close quarters with amp facing me but again I've read the manual and it repeatedly recommends higher treble settings than I am using for all three channels.

Should I try el34 tubes. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[screamingdaisy]

Try plugging your MkV into the AC30s speakers. That should help eliminate whether it's the speaker or not. Just make sure you go easy on the volume.

 

[jjboogie]

The amp just has a lot of treble on tap!

You can eventually try warmer tubes or different speakers if you are not able to dial it out.

I just turn it down a bit on the amp and then also with my tone control on the guitars.

 

[eudaimonia02912]

Change the stock power tubes for SED EL34s. These smooth out the high end. My Strat (which has bright Texas Specials and a bright Pearly Gates humbucker) sounds great.

 

[MrMarkIII]

+1 on the change to EL-34s. They will round off the top nicely. Don't forget to try tweed/variac power. Plugging the 8 ohm speaker into one of the four ohm jacks can soften the highs, too.
Backing off on the tone control has been a Nashville Tele Tone Secret since about the time the Tele was invented. Everybody does it, try it!

 

[phyrexia]

turn your tone knob down.

 

[ixoye777]

I had the exact same issue when I first got mine. The V is a really bright amp and I couldn't seem to dial out the treble. This is what I did to smooth out the top end and get it sounding the way I wanted:

I went with darker speakers in my cab (2 Cannabis Rex & 2 Swamp Thangs in a X pattern) and Tung Sol EL34b tubes. The C.Rex speakers are dark and smokey while the Swamp Thangs are nice and punchy - they sound awesome together. The EL34's are the bees knees with the V there are many threads here about them.

 

[Chester]

+1 on changing to EL34's. I use winged C's (in the V and Stilleto deuce), and also changed to stock preamp tubes in V1/2/3 to get rid of the ice picks. As the guys said above, speakers are also key - I go through road worn marshall cabs (4x12 & 2x12), so try some different cabs

It works well for me, and at lower volume in my studio too. What works for me and my ears may not suit you, but worth a try

 

[sted]

I have exactly the same amp mate and had the same issue, I gather you are talking about louder volumes? Thats where I had the treble trouble! At gigging volumes I find is a very fine balancing act between the channel master volume and overall volume, blending these properly is the key to getting it tonally right, my settings at yesterdays rehearsal for instance was for ch2: Crunch mode, gain 3oclock, master 10 oclock, presence 12.30, treble, 12.00, mids, 1.30, bass, 1.00 and the output was no more than 11.00. Playing through EMG 81 this is my rock hot rod marhsall setting, the guitar also has an SA in the neck which I didnt find any treble issues with, I use EL34's btw!. Excessive use of any of the volume pots in the mid-high gain territory will just rip your face off, these things have so much latent agression they need to be used conservatively!

 

[SST]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think I'm going to get order some el34's.

Is there a huge difference between SED el 34's and JJ's. I've used JJ el 84's in my Vox and Peavey classic 30 and have been pretty pleased with them.

 

[eudaimonia02912]

I've tried JJs and SEDs. The JJs seem to have less bottom end to my ears.

 

[SST]

This may be a stupid question but if i want to hook up a 2x12 cab and disable the speaker in the combo is it fine to just pull the internal speaker input on the back while having the cab hooked up to the 8 ohm output just above it?

 

[LPJunky]

Only one 8 ohms cab at a time can be connected to the 8 ohms outputs. Two 8 cabs at the same time would turn to be only an 4 ohms load since the wiring is parrallel. That would a an unsafe mismatch.

Two 8 ohms cabs can be connected to the 4 ohms outputs simultaneously for a perfect match.

 

[Barry]

The Mark series amps have always been designed around the 6L6 . I fully understand that Mesa gives the option of the EL34 but the sonic integrity of that amp is all based around the 6L6 . Alot of the treble problem tends to go away when you put the Mark into the context of a band . Mine definately sounds brighter when Im at home playing alone . All of the R&D on the mark V was done with 6L6s .

 

[screamingdaisy]

The Mark series amps have always been designed around the 6L6 . I fully understand that Mesa gives the option of the EL34 but the sonic integrity of that amp is all based around the 6L6 . Alot of the treble problem tends to go away when you put the Mark into the context of a band . Mine definately sounds brighter when Im at home playing alone . All of the R&D on the mark V was done with 6L6s .

Another live gigging point is the guitar lead...

I believe that Randall EQ's in the extra brightness in to compensate for the leads used on mid to large stages. Most Boogies I've played sound best with 20 to 30 feet of unbuffered lead in front of it. I find 10 footers allow a bit too much top end through. On the other end, Santana apparently uses a 50 foot lead, no matter how big/small the stage is.

 

[arvee72]

The Mark series amps have always been designed around the 6L6 . I fully understand that Mesa gives the option of the EL34 but the sonic integrity of that amp is all based around the 6L6 . Alot of the treble problem tends to go away when you put the Mark into the context of a band . Mine definately sounds brighter when Im at home playing alone . All of the R&D on the mark V was done with 6L6s .

Although I happen to be using el34's at the moment, this statement is dead on IMO. I tilt my V combo back for better monitoring. While practicing without the band, my ears get fatigued quickly. I used to lower the treble and presence, but I found myself having to roll it back up when the band joins in.

 

[shogun]

I honestly find the Mark V to be a fairly dark amp.. I mean.. the highs are there.. but it is easily classified as a low-mid voiced amp.. Were you using a lonestar before the mark?? Plug into a marshall and then tell me the MKV is bright! Better yet... plug into a stiletto :lol:

 

[Dr.Jackle]

I honestly find the Mark V to be a fairly dark amp.. I mean.. the highs are there.. but it is easily classified as a low-mid voiced amp.. Were you using a lonestar before the mark?? Plug into a marshall and then tell me the MKV is bright! Better yet... plug into a stiletto :lol:

I agree with this 100%. Actually, the claim that Mark V is too trebly sounds a bit weird to me. Of course it is easy to dial in too much treble, but the tone controls are very effective, and in my opinion it's also very easy to dial it off.

I believe the problem comes down to whether you play with a band and how loud you play, and little quirks our ears and brain have. Everybody knows that you need more highs when playing in a band, nothing new in that. Also when I'm practicing myself, especially long times, at first I tend to lower highs. After a while my ears get fatigued and the tone starts to sound darker, and I'd like to dial back the highs. What many people don't concider, is the volume they're playing affects very, very much how their ears hear the sound. The Fletcher-Munson curve explains the problem. The louder the sound gets, the relative loudness of frequencies changes, and 3-4 kHz gets most pronounced, hence they are called the precence frequencies of human ear.

The problem gets very apparent when recording, and this is my experience how many people get decepted by the volume they're playing. Most people like to crank their tube amp to get the most out of it. When the volume increases, they tend to lower treble and presence because a tone sounds brighter and brighter the louder you listen to it. Then they listen from the monitors the tone they just recorded, of course with much less volume, and wonder why the tone is so dark. The loud tone that's coming from the amp speaker sounds bright enough in the room, so they think the mic is misplaced and move it towards the center of the cone. They record and listen again, and the tone is very crisp in the wrong way, because the mic is too close to the center of the cone, yet it has barely enough highs to stand out in a band mix. You see the problem. People know that they need brighter sound with a band, but still get decepted by their ears because of the volume. The clear and defined sounds that we hear in recordins most probably sounded much brighter in the room.

The proble occurs also when playing live. When the PA system is tuned, it is played with the volume the band plays. With rock and metal bands it's pretty loud, and of course the matter I described is concidered when the tuning is done. Now, if the guitarist listens to his sound in front of the speakers (which of course is preferrable), he hears it very loud, and in his ears especially the 3-4 kHz gets pronounced. He dials in the amount of treble and precence that it sounds nice. Then the amp is mic'd, and the PA is tuned to sound good with high volume (meaning there probably is a bit attenuation in the 3-4kHz) and the guitar sound coming from the PA is pretty dark.

Hehe, and now that I've come here I've realized that this probably sounds terrible ranting. Oh well, i wrote it already, so I might as well post it.

 

[arvee72]

Hehe, and now that I've come here I've realized that this probably sounds terrible ranting. Oh well, i wrote it already, so I might as well post it.

On the contrary, great post! Thanks!

 

[screamingdaisy]

What I notice is that the presets sound like crap at low volumes.... bright, shrill and lacking the bottom end 'oomph' you can get using the sliders.

On the other hand, at high volumes I find the same slider settings that sounded good at low volumes now sound unnaturally bass boosted and kind of lacking in the midrange, yet the presets now sound perfect (for me)... nice and crunch with good balance and detail.

YMMV.