The best amp.... for everything??

[94Tremoverb]

"Marshall has used MDF only on the back of the cabs since the early 70's the cab design and build has not changed at all since then."

Sorry, this wrong.

Marshall has used *particle board* - not MDF - for the back panels of cabs starting with the 4x12"s in 1971, the 2x12s" in the later mid-70s (I'm not sure of the exact year), and still does on the full-size 4x12"s. They started using MDF for the whole cab on the small-size cabs (1x12"s and small 2x12"s), starting in the early 90s and working up through the range. (There are a few odd transitional cabs with things like MDF sides and particle-board backs.) Now all the standard cabs apart from the full-size 4x12"s are made of MDF.

Particle-board and MDF are *not* the same thing - particle-board (called chipboard in the UK) is made from wood chippings; MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) is made from other fibrous organic material, including waste cloth and cardboard. Particle-board is almost a tonewood compared to MDF! MDF is not very different from thick, dense cardboard or hardboard/Masonite, and sounds like it...

Whether they started to use particle-board in the early 70s to reduce standing waves or reduce cost, I don't know. However, it's almost universally accepted that the cabs with ply backs sound better, so even if the motive was to improve the sound they got it wrong. (Which is why the Hand-Wired reissue cabs have ply backs.) It's certainly true that a lot of even expensive hi-fi cabs are made with MDF - being very dead-sounding, it's ideal - but a guitar cab is not a hi-fi cab, it needs to resonate a bit.

I would also point out that even though the full-size 4x12"s are still made from ply with a particle-board back as they have been since 1971, the quality of the materials has changed - you can easily tell this if you lift one, the older cabs are very noticeably heavier. I'm surprised you haven't found this if you've used both older ones and newer ones. I don't agree they sound the same either - yes, the speakers and the cloth make by far the biggest difference, but the cabs do contribute a bit. I've also been using and working on Marshalls since the mid 80s.

 

[IMBGuitar]

Right ive got it now, thanks 94tremoverb

This website helped a lot, trip back to high school physics haha, http://www.about-guitar-amps.com/speaker_ohms_calculator.html

So it looks like all of the orange cabs are 16 ohms... which isnt great for the mark V, unless they were wired in parallel. I'm trying to look at choices that aren't boogie cabs, as you stated, most cabs are half the price and there doesnt seem to be any reason theyre so expensive.

Here's another one for ya' http://www.cornfordamps.com/cabs.htm if the 1x12 cab has an 8 ohm impedance, but the 2x12 also has an 8 ohm impedance, yet as far as i can tell they are both using V30s, which im assuming is 8 ohms, so how can the 2x12 still be 8 ohms? If it was wired parallel it should be 4, if it was series it should be 16.... :?:

Oh and another thing, cabs often have a single input jack, does this mean you use a stereo to mono 1/4 jack from the head to the cab? Or just use one of the outputs from the head? (as in, are the two 8ohm outputs stereo)....


thanks again for this, full of questions im afraid! Does anyone on a 1x12 with they're mark V?

 

[94Tremoverb]

Celestion makes many of its models in both 8-ohm and 16-ohm versions, including the V30. So the 1x12" has an 8-ohm speaker, and the 2x12" has two 16-ohm ones wired in parallel.

You need to use a single mono cable from the amp to the cab, connected to whatever the total cab impedance is, on the amp. If the cab has stereo inputs, it will almost always have one that's also a mono input. You *could* use two cables to both stereo inputs (still from the combined-impedance jacks on the amp, ie 4 ohms for an 8-ohm per side cab), which would have the slight advantage of marginally better reliability if one cable fails or comes out (then the amp would be running at a mismatch rather than no load, which is a lot safer), but it's really not worth the trouble if you use decent cables with good plugs.

Sometimes, a cab may have a switchable input set-up which enables either 8-ohm per side stereo operation, or 4 or 16 ohms in mono - modern Marshall 4x12"s are like this. It can sometimes be useful but I don't like them because (even discounting the poor quality of the PCB and components in the Marshalls) they are another potential source of unreliability.

Really... please don't buy a new Mesa cab in the UK. You're being ripped off and allowing them to justify continuing to do it - it's bad enough that the amps are so overpriced. The only way it will stop is if enough people simply don't buy them at these prices. Any half-decent builder can make a near replica for a fraction of the cost - it's not as if you're stealing the designs either (unlike copies of the amps)... you cannot patent or trademark a simple box containing a couple of speakers.

 

[stephen sawall]

"Marshall has used MDF only on the back of the cabs since the early 70's the cab design and build has not changed at all since then."

Sorry, this wrong.

Marshall has used *particle board* - not MDF - for the back panels of cabs starting with the 4x12"s in 1971, the 2x12s" in the later mid-70s (I'm not sure of the exact year), and still does on the full-size 4x12"s. They started using MDF for the whole cab on the small-size cabs (1x12"s and small 2x12"s), starting in the early 90s and working up through the range. (There are a few odd transitional cabs with things like MDF sides and particle-board backs.) Now all the standard cabs apart from the full-size 4x12"s are made of MDF.

Particle-board and MDF are *not* the same thing - particle-board (called chipboard in the UK) is made from wood chippings; MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard) is made from other fibrous organic material, including waste cloth and cardboard. Particle-board is almost a tonewood compared to MDF! MDF is not very different from thick, dense cardboard or hardboard/Masonite, and sounds like it...

Whether they started to use particle-board in the early 70s to reduce standing waves or reduce cost, I don't know. However, it's almost universally accepted that the cabs with ply backs sound better, so even if the motive was to improve the sound they got it wrong. (Which is why the Hand-Wired reissue cabs have ply backs.) It's certainly true that a lot of even expensive hi-fi cabs are made with MDF - being very dead-sounding, it's ideal - but a guitar cab is not a hi-fi cab, it needs to resonate a bit.

I would also point out that even though the full-size 4x12"s are still made from ply with a particle-board back as they have been since 1971, the quality of the materials has changed - you can easily tell this if you lift one, the older cabs are very noticeably heavier. I'm surprised you haven't found this if you've used both older ones and newer ones. I don't agree they sound the same either - yes, the speakers and the cloth make by far the biggest difference, but the cabs do contribute a bit. I've also been using and working on Marshalls since the mid 80s.

Thanks for the info .... I was only thinking of the regular 4x12's around. The only Marshall 4x12 I have any more was made around 90. I agree the ply back cabs sound better. Did they change the thickness of the wood being used on the cabs ? How else have the cabs been changed ? It seems to me they always weighted around 100 pounds. Thanks

 

[94Tremoverb]

I'm not sure the thickness of the ply has changed, it seems more like the actual quality of it has somehow been reduced - lighter wood veneers, or less compression when they make it, or something. Maybe it's because I'm a little guy - I only weigh 135lbs myself, so a 100lb cab is quite a lift! - but I can tell a very clear difference in weight between the old ones and the new ones, even with the same speakers. You get used to the new ones and then the next time you lift an old one, you really know about it! This is even comparing the 70s chipboard-back ones to the modern ones, not the old ply-back ones... I agree with you that in theory the construction is the same, but it doesn't seem to quite be in practice. The old ones just have this beautiful solidity and warmth to the sound, even fitted with modern speakers. The new ones are a little hollower and 'airier'. It is a fairly subtle difference, to be sure.

I'm obviously not alone in being able to hear it if you look at the prices of old Marshall cabs these days though! (Even with re-coned or replacement speakers.) More even than a new Mesa one in the UK...

 

[stephen sawall]

You know that is interesting .... I always thought the older ones sounded warmer .... but I thought it was because of the very broke in speakers. I would not doubt the cabs would be warmer with the same speakers. I also know the quality of wood can very a lot.
I am about 200 pounds right now and was 260 or more than a few times. I am sure our weight difference is a factor in moving these around. Also the fact I loaded trucks on and off when I was young and moving them around does not seem all that physical like a lot of people describe on the forums too me.

 

[94Tremoverb]

Ha, you weigh about as much as me *and* a 4x12" .

I don't get the thing about heavy gear either - and like I said, I'm only 135lbs, but I can lift a 4x12" and carry it up stairs on my own - it's not easy and I wouldn't want to do it every day, but I can. I'm 43 as well, so it's not an age thing! I've heard a 60lb 1x12" described as heavy before now, and to me that's a one-hand lift and carry a reasonable distance (like my old DC-5 was). One of my real regrets is that for years I was put off the Tremoverb because everyone said it was too heavy to move - I heard stories about 120lbs - then I actually tried one and found it was really not that bad at all, and only around 100lbs. Now I've got mine I really wish I'd had that tone and power for all those years instead of the DC-5, which was good but still sounded like a little amp really.

 

[floaty83]

I cannot believe no one has mentioned the Express 5:50 in this thread. Seriously, the 5:50 fits the OPs original description almost perfectly. Seriously, check it out.