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I wasn't very articulate. Essentially, I understand the notion that the Dual Recs, even at 50 watts, are much too loud for many gigs. Even at the Middle East Club in Beantown I'm not able to really crank my amp. All I am stating is that I too have researched the possibilities and came down to three viable conclusions, albeit not the most inexpensive routes. The Aracom and Faustine both look very impressive, with the Aracom being a proven success with high wattage amps. The Silent Sister also seems to have its merits. Looking at Royer's webpage on how to best record and mic my cabs live with my 122, I realized that many of the artists pics online were done in ISO cabs/boxes. I am not sure I would like the Royer in a Silent Sister, but what it can do to tame the power of our Rectifiers is interesting.

Again, my initial post was terribly written! It was midnight, yet that is not a good excuse for lack of good editing! :p
 
Faustine Phantom DX or Aracom really do not sound all that different than any of the other attenuators in a direct side by side. They do color the sound less than most, but they still color and compress the sound. I have used every attenuator named on this thread at one time or a other.

The Hot Plate works fine with high gain amps, lots of people use high gain amps with a Hot Plate. The Hot Plate is rated up to 150 watts ..... I have used one with a 180 watt amp and it worked perfect.

A ISO box is fine for recording when low volumes are needed. It still sounds like a little box no matter what one you use. The Rivera Silent Sister is one of the better ones I have tried. Live I would not recommend a ISO, except if you really like the sound of your guitar in the monitor at the gigs you are doing better than the sound of your cab.

Only thing anyone can do is try some of this stuff with your rig and see what works for you.
Bottom line is if you like the sound of your rig turned up .... anything you do to reduce the volume well be a compromise in sound in one way or a other.
 
stephen sawall said:
Bottom line is if you like the sound of your rig turned up .... anything you do to reduce the volume well be a compromise in sound in one way or a other.

EXACTLY!

The point of iso cabs, attenuators, etc. is just to make the most of a bad situation. Anyone who finds that a Dual or a Single is TOO LOUD is obviously in my sort of a situation, one where you can't even get the speakers working correctly. This is a BIG problem in a 240watt cab with v30s. They just have to be cranked so loud to annihilate the fizzies and begin to ROAR like they were designed to. There are other things that can be done to get that cranked tone at lower volumes but that depends on the individual situation i.e. if people will need the full power of a halfstack in some situations.

1) Get a 2 x 12. Again, for distorted tone this is somewhat of a compromise because they simply don't sound like a 4 x 12. Only a 4 x 12 does. That being said, it is MUCH easier to get a 2 x 12 with v30s roaring than it is with a 4 x 12. In MY opinion, any guitarist who owns a head should also own a 1 x 12, a 2 x 12, and a 4 x 12. Different tools for different situations.

2) Try some different speakers. Putting a lower sensitivity speaker in a cabinet will allow the amp to work harder with less volume as a result. Also, using a speaker that overdrives sooner can give a much phatter tone at lower volumes. Remember that speakers contribute a layer of distortion as well as preamp and power tubes.

3) Customizing your tubes.
i. You can buy tubes that distort at lower volumes which will give the sound of a cranked amp much sooner. This goes for both preamp and power tubes.
ii. You can buy Yellow Jacket tube converters from THD which will neuter an amp substantially. I found that with two of these and one rectifier tube, I can get that cranked tone at yet another hair lower than with a single recto, and the clean tone has a whole new life to it. With the Yellow Jackets, you simply cannot push a recto cab. The amp does not have enough power to sufficiently drive a 240watt 4 x 12 without going into power amp distortion. What DOES work is to run a Marshall 100watt or 120watt 4 x 12 or a 2 x 12. The amp still won't have the same low end girth, oomph, and balls of a higher power amp but it WILL sound like it is cranked MUCH sooner. Furthermore, the tonal characteristics of the amp change with EL-84s. I think the change is fairly significant. It imparts a very 'vintage' vibe which adds sparkle and verve to the cleans. The gain also sounds more vintage and is brighter. When running my amp this way, I MUCH prefer my gain channel on vintage because the modern channel is ear splittingly bright.

4) Buy a little 5 - 15watt class A amp for the small gigs. With the cost of a new cab ($1,000 for a silent sister / $600 for a Recto 2 x 12), Yellow Jackets($100), and an Attenuator($800 for the faustine/ $250 for the THD), you could most assuredly afford an Orange Tiny Terror or its ilk.

At the end of the day, the reality of the situation is that only a 100watt high gain tube head cranked through a 4 x 12 will sound like, well, a 100watt high gain tube head cranked through a 4 x 12. If you want to try and 'miniturise' this effect, you have to try one of a myriad of these different options until you find the one that is the most acceptable, given what you want to do.
 
This 'problem' if you want to call it that, is IMO part of what drives people to Axe-Fx. Try one and get it if that is what will work. Lots of posters have done that. No need to hate. I have thought about an Axe just for convenience and the items mentioned in the OP.

I have no complaints about noise from neighbors, but I wear ear plugs to keep from going deaf practicing or playing out with my SLO. Great amp but needs cranking to sound great. MV on 5 is the sweet spot to me but outrageously loud. Boogies are the same to my ears. MKV likes lots of volume in MK1 mode, one of my favs. I don't think the amp even wakes up good in the MK1 mode until it is gig level pants leg shaking loud. I would say to learn technique at lower volumes and spend a little time getting your gig tone right and forget about the attenuators. I ended up buying a Zinky Velvet 25 amp for practice and jam sessions. It is way more quiet than any of the 100W heads I have and I have grown to really like the Zinky. Tried at least 30 little amps. The Express was a close second. Even a 25W tube combo is loud, but with some Hearo's it is manageable. Definitely take care of your ears. Once they start ringing, it is downhill from there. Never stops and gets annoying.
 
@ Yellowjacket ^

+1, 100%, etc

The only thing I would add is that you can also use many of these volume-reduction methods together, which in my experience seems to work better. All of them, including amp master volumes, work best when they are doing the least - so if you use a couple of different methods each to a lesser degree, you can get often *better* tone at *lower* volume than with one method alone - in other words, don't buy just a non-MV 100W amp, a 4x12" and an attenuator, and expect it to sound good at bedroom volume when the attenuator is on the last click above dead silence. There's just a lot of experimentation involved in picking the right combinations and finding the sweet spots... and you should also be aware that EQ and gain settings need to be adjusted for lower volumes - don't assume that you can just turn down the final master volume (or attenuator, or whatever) and have it sound the same but quieter. It won't.
 
94Tremoverb said:
@ Yellowjacket ^

+1, 100%, etc

The only thing I would add is that you can also use many of these volume-reduction methods together, which in my experience seems to work better. All of them, including amp master volumes, work best when they are doing the least - so if you use a couple of different methods each to a lesser degree, you can get often *better* tone at *lower* volume than with one method alone - in other words, don't buy just a non-MV 100W amp, a 4x12" and an attenuator, and expect it to sound good at bedroom volume when the attenuator is on the last click above dead silence. There's just a lot of experimentation involved in picking the right combinations and finding the sweet spots... and you should also be aware that EQ and gain settings need to be adjusted for lower volumes - don't assume that you can just turn down the final master volume (or attenuator, or whatever) and have it sound the same but quieter. It won't.

No joke.
If you math a bit, it makes much more sense to get the lower efficiency speakers/ 1 x 12 or 2 x 12 for -3 DB; pull out two power tubes (Or switch to 50watts) if you desire class AB power, for -3db; add an attenuator for -3 or -6db; and then use early breakup tubes for -3db. If you add it all up, you are getting into the -12 to -16db range which is what the attenuator will do at its maximum setting. It still WON'T sound like a cranked 4 x 12, but maybe it will get things in the ballpark of what people want. i.e. acceptable scorching tube tone at low volumes!

I find though, that the Yellow Jackets are an EXTREME solution in and of themselves. You basically NEED no more than about 100 - 120watts worth of speakers at max to operate with the things, and even then, the amp rapidly sounds pretty open. So ya, combine the 1 x 12 / 2 x 12 solution with YellowJackets and you'll be really in the ballpark for driven tubes at low volume. Just be aware that they really do shape tone in a different way and you might not like it.
 
I agree. I tried some Yellowjackets in a DC-5 I used to have, and they sounded really good but did the exact opposite of what I wanted - they made it sound like a cranked up small amp, not like a quieter big amp - completely different sound and feel. Attenuation worked much better for what I wanted back then. (Although doing the 'volume mod' was what really fixed the problem, just by letting me turn the Output Level down a bit further.)

I might try some again for my Tremoverb though, because this time I actually *want* it to sound a bit more like an AC30...
 
Yes, YellowJackets really alter the tone quite drastically. IF you want that cranked tone, they definitely do the trick. Run four of them in a tremoverb for more power and you'll get a nice EL-84 chime happening. My friend had a Tremoverb before he traded it for a Top Hat. When I plugged YellowJackets into his amp it did 'almost' the same thing for a fraction the cost of a trade up!

[EDIT] I just mixed 6L6s (Mesa Premium, STR 454 or whatever) with YellowJackets out of curiosity. You get the headroom of the class AB tubes but the chime of the EL-84s. Definitely my FAVOURITE clean so far from my Dual. The gain is good, complex and crunchy like EL-84s but with more high end bite, girth, and thump. Definitely gotta try that!
 
Running the Hot Plate to get bedroom sounds ..... is not all that great. What it does very well is ..... run your master where you get the best sounds, with most amps this is in the 10/2 o'clock range then take off 4/8 dB with the Hot Plate. This is enough of a reduction to get a good sound at a lot of gigs.

I also agree with taking off a little with several ways is better than using one to cut off a lot.

I have 1x12's, 2x12's and 4x12's......I have over 40 speakers here. I like the sound of a full stack better than anything no matter what the volume is .... TV on up. It is the way the low end sounds ..... a 1x12 or 2x12 just does not do what I want.
 
I agree. Once you get a drummer going, you need all the speakers you can get to keep up! In my current situation, I need the best tone I can get at the absolute lowest possible settings so I definitely account for that with a 2 x 12, which is the best possible compromise. Thing is ball bustingly loud when I crank it. The PROBLEM is that no matter what, drums just simply wash everything away.

If I ever start gigging seriously again I'll probably pickup a used 4 x 12 for $400. I have to say though, once I build the second 2 x 12, I'll just be able to stack the buggers if I ever need more speakers!
 
I don't quite buy the argument that you need to have 4x12 necessarily, but a 2x12 surely helps disperse the sound better than a single speaker. In practice or at shows a 2x12 will work great, but you should of course take into account what kind of cabinet you are using and how it is tuned. With my Port City's, I just keep it on an amp wedge (or my new Gramma Pad) and I'm good to go. With my Orange PPC 212, it sounded much better elevated due to its directional tendencies. A 4x12 is good at getting those frequencies off the ground for sure, but they can also sound awful if they aren't propped up on something. Any speaker cab will sound a little different if it is just sitting on the ground due to reflections. Some clubs I play at (The Middle East in Boston) I always position my 2x12 (or 4x12) cabs facing the other direction. This prevent bleed through in the microphones and allows me to really crank my Roadster to about 3 o'clock at 100 watts with gain. It totally depends on the situation and what you like to hear.
 
@BostonRedSox. Could agree more. 4X12's aren't always the best choice for everything. I've had (still have) over the years, numerous cabs of different types and some are far more versatile than others, esp. depending on how you use/position them. One of the cabs that I use that seems to offer alot, once elevated, is a Genz Benz 2X12 G-Flex w/ Swamp Thangs. It's extremely forceful and projective yet able to be sublte and quiet when it needs to be. Definately out performs my old Marshall 1960 4X12's all day long.
 
I am fine with a 1x12 or 2x12 ..... but they just do not produce the kind of bass I like. I find a single 4x12 does not really do what I want. It really only comes down to my taste in sound. I have done a gig with a Fender Champ (1x8) and a TS9 and that worked fine for me ..... but I know what I like and it really is not about volume for me.
 
Same here. I've done the Tweed Champ thing too, and for what I was doing at the time (50s rock'n'roll in piano bar gigs mostly) it was perfect - I even got asked to turn it down once, and it wasn't even mic'ed!

But for what I do with my original music with a 3-piece modern alt/rock band, I *need* the Tremoverb 2x12" - it's about depth and size of tone, not volume. I don't even play all that loud really (only moderate drummer volume) but even the DC5 1x12" I used before wasn't quite full enough sounding for that - it was more than *loud* enough, it just went too midrangy and beamy when it was turned up. The Tremoverb doesn't do that. I doubt it's actually putting out much more than about 20W on average, because I can (and have) played at the same stage volume with amps as low as 20W, but it isn't the same sound.
 
I do not play loud at all .... no louder than the drummer and often less. I never get asked to turn down and often I am asked to turn up. I just like the fullness that comes from a lot of speakers.
 
There is definitely a difference between volume and presence. 4 x 12s sound so much phatter, even when they're turned down. I got rid of my 4 x 12 at the beginning of the summer but now I'm playing with a drummer I want another one. Oh well, I'll just build another 2 x 12 and haul them both out to compensate for 'loud drummer' syndrome!
 
I just sold my HO attenuator the other day. I didnt really find it helped any and here's why.

Mesa's have a Gain, Master, and Output. Correct me if Im wrong but diming your Gain will push your preamp tubes, master pushes the power tubes and output changes the overall volume, no impact on tubes.

Not all amps have a master and output, so for them to get the power tube saturation/distortion they need to really to dime the amp. THIS IS when an attenuator comes in handy.

I really couldnt justify having a $300 piece of gear sitting on my amp which I never used.

Definetly try before you buy it as I dont think attenuators are much use for rectos.

They only thing I really found it useful for was if I wanted the amp quieter than having my output on 0. WHICH WAS NEVER!!!
 
I thinking using an attenuator with 'recabinet' could be interesting. http://recabi.net/site/products/recabinet-complete-20/

I saw they had it on sale and I was thinking this might be the REAL solution for awesome tones at low volume.
 
YellowJacket said:
I thinking using an attenuator with 'recabinet' could be interesting. http://recabi.net/site/products/recabinet-complete-20/

I saw they had it on sale and I was thinking this might be the REAL solution for awesome tones at low volume.
A big fan of attenuators...but why not not use in conjunction with an isolation cab rather than recabinet?
 
Addictedtokaos wrote: "I just sold my HO attenuator the other day. I didnt really find it helped any and here's why.

Mesa's have a Gain, Master, and Output. Correct me if Im wrong but diming your Gain will push your preamp tubes, master pushes the power tubes and output changes the overall volume, no impact on tubes.

Not all amps have a master and output, so for them to get the power tube saturation/distortion they need to really to dime the amp. THIS IS when an attenuator comes in handy.

I really couldnt justify having a $300 piece of gear sitting on my amp which I never used.

Definetly try before you buy it as I dont think attenuators are much use for rectos."


Well, that isn't quite true. Both master volume and output level affect the drive to the power tubes, but also change the amount of gain in a couple of preamp stages as well (in the FX loop circuit), so you get slightly different tones by turning one up and the other down or vice versa. But unless *both* are turned up, you won't get power tube distortion. So using an attenuator allows you to do that - or just to get the amp louder to the point it sounds better and/or more dynamic, without necessarily causing more distortion - at the same final volume.

You do definitely get a different tone using an attenuator as well as both of the level controls - maybe not massively different, and I can see the argument that they're quite expensive for the amount of benefit that they give - but I do prefer it with my Tremoverb. OK, maybe I don't use very typical 'Recto' tones most of the time, but I can easily hear the difference - it sounds bigger, more dynamic and lively with the attenuator than just using the amp controls, and you hear the difference between the power supply mode (Bold/Spongy/Tube/Diode) much more clearly. I'm not cranking it all the way up either - just running it at more like my normal stage volume (somewhere under halfway), but the power tubes are still working a lot more than they are at house volume.

But... the Ho is not really an attenuator, it's a dummy load and solid-state emitter-follower re-amp system. It also has a rather high impedance, so it will load the amp less and you may not hear as much difference in the tone and dynamics as you do with something like a Hot Plate. This may be why you found it didn't really sound any better.

OK, I'm not *totally* sure I would have bought my Hot Plate or my Marshall Powerbrake (which is also good by the way, it has a very unfair rap on the net which it doesn't deserve) if I didn't need them for other things, but now I've got them I almost never play my Tremoverb in the house without one of them.
 
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