TC50 Tube discussion

[bandit2013]

I was able to get something done last night using the Mesa OS Recto 412 and the TC-50 with four of the Mesa certified power tubes. The recording starts with stock EL34 STR447, 6V6 STR417, 6L6 STR440 and last is the 5881 STR425. I did not include the Mesa NOS Siemens STR450 in this one. File size was getting huge and the recording is 12 minutes too long. (reason for what I was playing was not on proper tempo, and really is terrible too as I kept messing up every time I hit the record button. The track cut is a nice feature and got used quite often. If I thought about what I was playing I would mess up. At least this time you can hear an actual difference between the tubes. Now that the TC-50 is up and running again may have to do the EL34 comparison over again as that recording I could not tell the difference and they all sounded the same.

For each tube I ran though CH1 normal, CH1 drive (maxed gain), CH2 normal, CH3 normal. Note that for each tube I also had to adjust a few things, gain and channel volume and slightly adjusted the tone controls to compensate for each tube type. Just listen for the tone and character of the amp, no effects except reverb and the resonating drum set in the room (without the snare wires). Recording is okay but what I played was not.... just bear with it. I will mark the spots with comments as I did with the other one. Also I used a different guitar than the last time so no piezo bridge part. the recording is awful at best and I probably could have added more microphones and took some time to practice a few years before attempting. No big deal I do not claim to be a master at the guitar or anything in that regards....

 

[jnoel64]

I had a moment where I tried the JAN-Phillips in V4. I concur. Not a worthwhile move at all. Glad to hear you got the TC back up and running again. I can't believe I almost thought about selling mine. Never. Never. Never. If I get motivated while the wife it OOT, I may give recording some samples a shot. Haven't used my "studio" in years. It would be a good time to figure out Reaper finally.

 

[bandit2013]

Here it is.... hmmm. again they all sound the same to be on soundcloud. I can hear a definite difference on the recorder with the headphones. Perhaps my hearing is lost....oh well. It could be my sound card on the PC too. The only good thing for me is the TC-50 is up and running, the bad news is I may post more recordings.... :shock:

It is similar to the live but not the same, something is not right with this... sooner or later I may figure it out. Perhaps abandoning the recorder and move to a PC.

https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/tc-50stockwav

The OS Recto sounds okay with the TC-50, with the 6V6 it was taxing and had to push the master volume a bit. I think I forgot to drop the mixer output level when I switched to 6L6 tubes as it sort of sounds odd or rubbery. I prefer the Vertical 212 cab more than the V30 loaded Recto 412. The other one I have was rebuilt with EV speakers but I normally use the Roadster with that cab or the JP-2C if I want to get some ringing in my head. For some reason the 412 cab just... not all there as I would expect but sound great if you have nothing to compare it too. Bottom end is not as deep as it is with the 212 cabs (unless you change speakers but even that does not top the 212 cabs).

 

[bandit2013]

I think the Shure SM57 colored the tone too much. May do all of this over again without the dynamic mics. So much to learn when it comes to recording. I had better luck using the attenuator with mics than I am without. Have not tired the attenuator with the TC-50 but may try it this weekend. Do not be surprised if I pull the two recordings from soundcloud and replace it with something else. So far I am not impressed with any of the recordings I have done such that the goal was to reveal the differences between tubes and I am not hearing it in the recording. Suggestions would be appreciated as what I am hearing direct from the amp sounds way better than what has been recorded thus far. Sure practice would also help too. Heck why not just create something with drums and bass and see how it turns out. However, my next project plan is a bit more complex that I am willing to admit as I will attempt to include all of my Mesa amps folded or layered in somehow. Since the TC-50 quit on me before I repaired it, I discovered a neat trick for slaving any amp. I have the Lehle P split II and I never tried it in the loop before. I ran the RA100 with the Lehle in the FX loop and used the isolated output to drive the TC-50. It was interesting to note that the preamp circuit of the RA100 sounds different than the TC-50 preamp circuit. The P-split also works great on the front end too, no noise from ground loops.

I will see what comes next this weekend and hopefully get a recording that works for me. So far the recordings are not very helpful to anyone.... :|

 

[jnoel64]

I can definitely hear the differences. The 6V6 had more warmth than the EL34, and the 5881s seemed like it was similar to the 6V6 but had more "body" for lack of a better term. One thing I have noticed with using any mic when recording is the loss of the thick bottom end Mesas are known for. You should try using the Cab Clone and see what you get. I just use my PC when recording. I think whatever DAW software and sound card hardware you use also will color the tone. Nothing ever beats hearing an amp in person. I was really surprised in how my Electra Dyne sounded compared to all the demo videos I watched. I didn't think they sounded even remotely similar and was initially disappointed. Then, I learned more about tweaking that amp and haven't been happier since!

 

[bandit2013]

Yeah, I have a few ideas for the next time..... I keep forgetting the V30 in the 412 seem to separate the frequencies a bit more than in the 212 cabinet. I had the SM57 near dead center and not really sure where I had the D6 placed. A ribbon mike would be great if they were not so dang expensive. Perhaps three mics covering one speaker would be more ideal that way I can at least capture as much of the cone as I can. Sure it depends on angle of the mic on the speaker.... Reason behind the 4 reference mics placed about 6 feet away. I may just try again with those and forego the dynamic mics as I believe I had their presence in the mix a bit higher than the reference mics. Steep learning curve to get it right.

Deep bottom end is not that easy with the 412 cab as there seems to be more top end and upper mids than bottom end. The 212 cabs definitely sound huge with lots of bottom potential. I will stick with the 212 cab or use the EV loaded 412. Not sure what will work at the moment. I had good results with the Rivera Recording attenuator (blend mic and tuned speaker simulator sounds really good and realistic). Have not tried the attenuator or cab clone with the TC-50 yet so will see what happens when I do. Cab clone does not exactly produce the speaker response but should at least reveal a difference between tubes (same would apply to the attenuator). Trying to capture what I am actually hearing is more difficult than one would realize as each mic has its own frequency response and impedance that may tailor the tone. SM57 make everything sound honky. I should have dialed in the preamp on the mixer to compensate, I just left everything neutral (that does not always work out). I have a few other ideas and will work it out this weekend, and if the end result is better I will replace the two terrible recordings I has posted recently....

 

[bandit2013]

I am definitely going to work on this again.... I was just running the RA100 against the TC-50 this evening. Have the KI77 loaded in the TC-50 now and the SED =C= in the RA100. Sooner or later I will have to do a recording RA vs TC and actually the RA on the 412 is almost equivalent to the tone I am getting with the TC on the Vert 212 cab. (if I do such I will post that else where as it is off topic for this thread). I think I have an idea why everything sounds the same in the recordings, it is where I had the mics. I was sitting between the cabs and not directly in front of one or the other and it sounded really good but if I moved towards the center line of the speakers I noticed a huge difference in tonal character. From a distance you do not notice but up close you do. Beaming..... It is more pronounced on the 412 but is also present on the 212 cab. All of the speakers are well broken in by now as I have been abusing my eardrums with the JP-2C and the Vertical 212 a while before getting the TC-50. I will have to spend some time finding the optimum location for any close mounted mics. The amp sounds so much better than the recording is providing (except for my playing, that won't change much.... will have to play something nobody has a reference too which may help me as if and when I screw up I won't be able to tell either.)

I did listen to the first recording over again,,, yeah I am going back to that one.... I turned up the volume on the sound and speaker system since the dog was not crammed in by my feet, ok there is some difference between the 4 tubes (if you focus on the CH3 section you can hear it). The KT77 were similar to the NOS Siemens in the recording, The Ruby actually sound great as does the Stock EL34 tubes (in terms of tonal quality despite the guitar player's ability and the sound engineers ineptness for setting up mics and adjustment of mixer and recorder settings, perhaps one song was worthy of playing "nobody's fault but my own" in condensed format). So I have a few ideas but not sure that will do much in terms of recording quality as the tubes are similar in tone once they get filtered though microphones. Placement of the mic is probably the most overlooked in my case.

 

[Daxman73]

Really cool stuff here bandit2013. Thanks for all the insight. As much as I'm really liking the factory EL34's, you have me jonsin' for a set of the GL KT77's. And I really like the factory tubes surprisingly.

 

[jnoel64]

Just got my vertical 2x12 and actually found the bottom end lacking. Of course, that's compared to the open-back cabs I am used to. May have to swap more speakers out of the cab. It came with 1 V30 and 1 Celestion G12M-70. Without even listening to it, I pulled the G12 and put in a WGS British Lead. Maybe if I just swap positions with the 2 speakers, that will help. Dunno. Will have time to experiment with different speakers and positions later. Otherwise, the rest of the tone was good. I am just used to more thunder in the bottom end.

 

[bandit2013]

What year was the Vert 212? I am not sure how the dimensions have changed over the years but the current version that the Mesa has released under the Rectifier banner is killer. Not exactly sure when it came out but I first saw it with the JP-2C on Sweetwater. I have seen other 2x12 vertical cabs, most had the expanded metal grill and perhaps was a blend of two speakers, EVM12L black label on bottom and the V30 on top. Joe, if you still have the redback try that in the bottom and a V30 on top, or other.... that may wake it up on the bottom end. EV would also do it too (EV is okay with TC-50, sounds better with a Mark or Rectifier amp though).

 

[jnoel64]

Not sure of the date on the cab - haven't looked yet. It looks like the newer production, though. I have a friend who has the older, metal grate model. What I would really like to try are the EVM 12L Black Labels, but at $300 each, I think I'll wait.

I recently saw a Tone King video on Organic Timbre. Those look like they should be killer, but they only make an 8 ohm model. I would prefer 16s.

As my hearing keeps deteriorating, I think I am liking V30s less and less in general. The WGS Veteran 30s are more pleasing to my ears for a similar tone. I also really like the Eminence speakers I have - Texas Heat and Swamp Thang, more the former than the latter.

I have my Red Back in a single 12 cab at the moment, but I think I will be putting that speaker in a deeper single 12 cab.

For the vert 2x12, I am going to start with switching positions, putting the British Lead on top. After that, I will do some swapping to see if I can get what my ears want to hear. I had a "vintage" (look not age) open back 2x12 where I ran 2 British Lead speakers. My Dyne combined with that cab was pure tonal bliss to me. In theory, combining a Veteran 30 and British Lead in that cab should make it sound close to my RK 2x12 cab, which would be very pleasing and much less weight.

One thing is for sure: The TC-50 and Mark V look amazing on top of the vert 2x12. It's nice to have the same label on both my head and cab. That may seem shallow, but I can't help myself. When looks combine with tone, it just increases my smile.

Below is a pic of my new cab.

There really should be a speaker portion on this board!

 

[bandit2013]

Yeah, that is the current recto 212 vertical model. Have you tried the Mark V though it yet? The one I have is stock and less than a year old (I think) as I got it after the JP-2C. Awesome amp and definite killer though the Vert 212 cab. Mark V with V4 mod is also a pleaser but since mine is a combo, I loaded that with EV black labels (combo and extension cab, the Celestion Red back in storage and the Crème 90W Alnico has been retired). Creamback G12H75 for some reason sound better in an open back cab vs closed and I have a pair of those in the RA100 combo.

I would agree, a separate forum for speakers, cabinets, and the like as they have one for effects and such. Odd thing about the V30 speakers, the early one's I do not like as they are very bright so I pulled the one's out in my old Recto 412 and stuffed in the EV black label speakers. (buy them when you can but not all at once unless you have the coin to do it). Right now I have a total of 6 of the Black labels in use. Mark V before any mods was awful (and I am being kind here) but the EV seemed to improve things considerably and dang they are perfect for the JP-2C and the Roadster too. (if the amp is tight enough you can really drive the bass up without flub and the EV takes abuse more than the Celestion speakers can handle). ...... again I have hijacked a thread on tubes and morphed it into a speaker discussion. Well in some respects that makes a difference that can make or break the tone. Considering that the TC-50 is only 50W, you have options what you can use speaker wise and are not limited to needed 100W or more capacity.

 

[jnoel64]

Very true that the TC50 offers many more speaker options, especially when 6V6s are used. After my gig last night, I think I am ready to try out the 5881s. I was really pushing the amp with the 6V6s in - like 3 o'clock on both the channel master and the overall master. I probably need to adjust the level settings on my G-Major 2, also. But, having more headroom from the amp would be good as well.

I am envious of your stock of Black Labels! That was quite an investment in speakers alone! I believe you once stated those were a little stiffer than the EMV 12L classics, correct? They take more time to break in?

Speakers are a very important part of any rig. They're often overlooked in a tone quest. But, every single part of the signal chain has an impact on tone, even the picks, strings, and cables you use. That doesn't always mean you have to get the most expensive ones, just the components that give a player the best feel. I've recently been using V-Picks, and for a simple piece of plastic, they give me more control over my attack and approach to the guitar. But, the speakers are last in the signal chain and should never be neglected.

The V was my first amp pick for the vertical 2x12. I simply could not get a thick enough bottom end, and that will begin my quest for the right speaker. The TC50 was deeper in tone, but still not as deep as any of my open back single 12s, including the Red Back. I wish Mesa made another back panel for that cab. One that is half open. I suppose I could make one. I still have a few good size pieces of birch plywood. I've gotten very used to open back cabs and how they breathe.

 

[bandit2013]

thread stolen evidence below........

The Black Label EV is very similar to the Mesa Black Shadow EVM12L speaker. I had a Classic EV and mounted that in an extension cab back in the 1990's when I had My Mark III. Speakers almost seem identical but the difference is in the suspension. Same spider but the outer web was different and possibly the cone material. Classic EV had a softer outer web almost as if it was a foam rubber or rubberized material of some sort. The Black shadow EV had a rubberized fabric that was quite stiff and more rigid than the Classic. When comparing the classic to the Black Shadow speaker, the Classic had a softer bottom end to it, black shadow was a bit more aggressive. Now comes along the Zaak Wylde EV black label speaker.... very similar in construction to the Mesa Black Shadow speaker but higher rated power on the voice coil. Sound is similar to the Black Shadow Speaker and you can really drive it hard if you desire to do so. Awesome with the JP-2C, Roadster and the Mark V. Do not let the smooth surface of the paper cone fool you or the sealed fiber dust cap... this speaker will give you more top end then you think it will. For a 2 inch voice coil diameter it definitely has the high end covered. Before the Mark V V4 mod, the EV BL was capable of stepping up on the ice tone if you were not careful. I blame it all on the Mark III combo I had which had the Black Shadow EV. When comparing the two OS Recto Cabs (one stock with V30 and the other with the BL-EV) it is a night and day difference. EV has the bottom and punch I cannot get from the V30 412 cab. The TC-50 is okay with the EV speaker (have tried both 412 and ran though the one in the Mark V combo as well as the one in the deep 1X12 extension cab). I prefer the TC-50 though the V212 or the OSR412 with the V30, or the RA100 combo using the Celesiton G12H75 (not fully open but is open back). EV had a nicer clean channel response than say the V30 or the MC90 (stock on MKV combo). I am not trying to plug the EV or other speakers. However it does matter what amp is paired with what speaker or cabinet. ..... Also what power tubes are in use may also contribute to the like or dislike of one thing or another..... subjective subject as everyone has different likes and dislikes... I used to dislike the V30, all thanks to the Mark V in head form with the ice tone generator of CH3 so I moved on to EV, but then came the RA100 and well now the V30 is the top choice for that amp.... TC-50 falls into the same camp as the RA100 but has attributes in its signal characteristic that sounds great though many speakers (considering all channels and not just the high gain channel). TC-50 has some great potential.... Note that it is far from a Mark series amp with some similar tones but lacks the early tone stack (Mark series amps) in the gain chain that gives it some Rectifier flavor too (does not have cathode follower driven tone stack on the high gain channels so does not get there all the way) so it falls in the middle of the spectrum. I have tried the 5BEQ pedal in the loop, that was okay. Need to try it up front and see what happens (in hopes to broaden the sound spectrum a but further).

 

[bandit2013]

Just placed an order for some more recording gear. I have been considering a ribbon mic for some time. Decided on the SE Electronics Voodoo VR1, and to dial it in I also got the Cloudlifter (dual channel) so I can run it with a dynamic without having to max out the preamp on the mixer. If I like it I will probably get another ribbon mic. IF the Cloudlifter does as it claims, will see I may end up with the rack unit for the drum set.

I get a different response of the SM57 depending on if run direct to the Tascam recorder or though the Soundcraft mixer. I have also heard examples of the SM57 operated with the cloudlifter (that actually sounds really good). At least eh cloudlifter will protect the ribbon mic from phantom power since that is required to be used with the cloudlifter anyway. I am learning the tricks of the trade.... will see what happens by next weekend... If all goes well, expect to have the two recordings replaced by new tracks.

 

[bandit2013]

The SE Voodoo VR1 ribbon mic and cloudlifter came in a day early.... was expecting Friday for delivery. No amp to record though as that subject is off for repair. Time to break out the JP-2C and run a comparison to the Roadster and the Mark V. I will not flood the results here perhaps in another forum. Just not in the heavy metal mood though.... but I can get there once I power up the amp in no time.

 

[jnoel64]

I am finally going to give the 5881s a shot. I had put the stock EL34s in for this week and the opportunity to hear the amp roar fell through. So, I will be pulling those and running the 5881s instead. Will post my results after next week.

 

[bandit2013]

Don't forget to set the bias switch to 6L6...... :roll:

I thought they sounded great in person. More of a full 6L6 tune than the STR440's. Those actually sound better pushed but the 5881 sounded great at all volume levels.

 

[jnoel64]

I am always extra careful before I power up my TC50. The speaker off switch can so easily be hit I make sure everything is where it should be on the back panel before I hit the first power switch.

I read somewhere that Mesa's 5881s are actually Sovteks. I have Mesa's in mine at the moment. Will get to hear them over the next few days.

 

[bandit2013]

I would also think the 6V6 are too. EL34 are EHX tubes. All made by the same company in Saratov, Russia; Reflector corp. aka: Sovtek Mullard, Svetlana [not the =c= tube company] Tung Sol, and what ever brand or trade name that has been purchased by New Sensor and now brokered by them)

The Mesa 6L6 STR 440 is a Chinese tube (Sino or Shuguang, actually they are the same manufacturer or not, hard to tell ) generally resourced though Ruby tubes.