Stiletto Trident is a Bit Harsh. Help!?

[Jedro]

1st post, hopefully more to come. I'll try to keep 'em short.

I'm a lontime Boogie user, of about 20 years. I've owned a couple of 50 Calibers, both Subway amps, a Triaxis and a 395 power amp. I've also owned Marshalls. Generally, I know what I'm getting when buy Boogie. But.....

I recently purchased a used Stiletto Trident. Contrary to my normal routine, I didn't research or tweak it much, just plugged in and plopped down my cash.

When I got it home, the first thing I noticed was how bright this amp is voiced. On other amps,setting the all the EQs on 5, normally gives a rather flat sound, good for a starting point. Not the Stiletto. It is very bright. I would say brittle. I have found myself backing off almost completely on the mids and highs. I know this is Mesa's answer to Marshall. I just don't remember any Marshall I've owned being this bright.

Having said that, the tone I get is great. I'm just not able to get much variation due to the brightness.

Also.. The sweet singing lead tone I identify with Boogie and have always been able to achieve just isn't there. Maybe that is a quality of this amp. For lead tones, I always think of 80's Lukather. Big tone, lots of sustain. A sound that begs me to play it. I'm starting to think this isn't a part of the Stiletto's bag of tricks, but I'm open to ideas on how to achieve what I want. Maybe a V-Twin or some other preamp pedal for a lead sound? I don't know.

Input and ideas are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

BTW, my guitars are early 80's Zion Strats. HSS pickup config in both. One has Bare Knuckle PUs, the other has Duncans. I would say medium output.

 

[camsna]

Early 80s Zion strats?! I thought I was the only one!!! Welcome to the family!

As far as harshness and general blandness- I've found it to be most often related to tube selection and biasing. I'm SURE you know all about that. But, if I were you, I'd get it modded for adjustable bias. And then - get yourself a grip of SED (=C=) EL34s. Or mix 'n' match those with JJ KT77s.

Then bias it up nice and warm. Oh yeah. Make that Boogie sing. As far as Stiletto-specific advice - sorry - I'm not your man. But, as I'm sure you know, a good set of preamp and power tubes (and a few backups) is sure worth the investment. And while they won't change the amp into a-whole-nother amp, they will turn the stuffiness and harshness into creamy richness.

Welcome to the board!

 

[srf399]

I'm at a loss.... My Stiletto actually has a smoother/creamier tone than my MKIV had! The lead tone I'm getting on my Deuce II is the best I've ever had. Sounds very similar to Gary Moore's "Still got the Blues" and Andy Timmon's tone. Way more fluid than my MKIV was...

Sometimes different styles excel on different amps. I hated the MKIV but that's just me. The Stiletto might not be your amp.

 

[Jedro]

Maybe that's just it. The Stiletto isn't the amp for me. That's tough to deal with, cause I love the punchiness. I just wish I could get a punchy/dark rhythm tone without radical EQing.

SRF, would it be possible to post some general knob settings along with a statement of the tone you're getting?

Camsna, I really don't know too much about biasing and tubes. For years I played exclusively through a Triaxis and a 395 with a fixed bias, so there was no need to even worry about that. Tubewise, I just know the basics. Not real sure what I can use as replacements or what the result would be.

As far as the Zions, man those guitars are great. I've got two Turbos, one I had a compound radius done, and it is the greatest guitar. Just picking it up off the stand you can tell its special. And the sound. Amazing. I will be buried with that one (no time soon I hope). I like the Turbos better than later Zions. I like Strat shaped guitars to be Strat shaped. Anyway, fantastic instruments.

Thanks to both of you.

 

[Chris McKinley]

Jedro,

RE: "I just wish I could get a punchy/dark rhythm tone without radical EQing.". You're describing qualities that are opposite in quality. A dark tone is, almost by definition, not punchy, and vice versa.

Perhaps if you could clarify which of the two types of tone you are actually wanting, we could steer you more accurately in the right direction.

 

[Gibbyage]

Back off the highs before the mids. I crank the bass, mids at 8 and highs at 2-3 (not o clock)

 

[Jedro]

Jedro,

RE: "I just wish I could get a punchy/dark rhythm tone without radical EQing.". You're describing qualities that are opposite in quality. A dark tone is, almost by definition, not punchy, and vice versa.

Perhaps if you could clarify which of the two types of tone you are actually wanting, we could steer you more accurately in the right direction.

I'm not looking for mud, I want a tone that isn't dominated by upper mid and high end frequencies, but is still tight. No flab.

That's what's great about guitar tone. Everyone hears it a different way. I don't think that punchy and dark are mutually exclusive. I certainly don't want to argue about terminology. Classic AC/DC, Back in Black. To me, that is a guitar tone that is dark - it definitely doesn't have the top end edge that their earlier albums had. And if that isn't a punchy tone, then there's never been one.

I CAN get the tone, but I feel that because I have to radically EQ the amp, either I am going about it the wrong way or the amp isn't versatile.

I'm not looking to cop any specific tone. I just have starting points, then I build from there. Mutt Lange era AC/DC for rhythm, Lukather and maybe a dash of old Schon for lead.

I've never nailed it all with one amp. Maybe I won't this time, either.

 

[Jak0lantern01]

Could be the speaker. I'm running an EV12L in a Thiele, no harshness unless I bump up the mids, presence, and treble pretty high.

 

[jab]

check the current running thread of "Got an Ace Again". Same discussion.

 

[Geiri]

turn the presence knob all the way down with everything else at noon and start from there. Then a nice od in front and the world of tone is in the palm of your hands. :wink:

 

[Jedro]

turn the presence knob all the way down with everything else at noon and start from there. Then a nice od in front and the world of tone is in the palm of your hands. :wink:

Thanks Geiri, I generally try to start with flat-ish tone settings and adjust from there. I'll just keep trying with the Stiletto. Having mids and treble at 12 o'clock is way too shrill. It's almost like other Stiletto owners have a different amp.

Also, when you say "a nice od in front", do you mean a od between my guitar and amp?

Jed

 

[Chris McKinley]

Jedro,

Okay, thanks for clarifying. It is kinda hard sometimes to describe sounds with text only. The Back in Black tone is going to be considered fairly bright, especially by modern standards, and also given that it's pretty much a guitar>Marshall>Marshall cab>mic recording setup. There's a little bit of room ambience in there due to a room mic being added to the mix, but that's pretty much it. That kind of Marshall sound has plenty of EL34 brightness to it for sure, and it was also low to moderate gain overall. Back in Black, the song, is a good example. Plenty of trebly bite in the opening single-note riff, which is why it's one of the punchiest riffs in rock history. Some of that is also due to the SG guitar, which is itself quite bright overall.

Starting with the presence all the way down and turning up to taste, as opposed to starting at 5 like you would on a Marshall, is also a good idea. I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but you absolutely have to use tube rectification. It would also be a good idea to set the 50/150 switch to "50". Also, the Spongy setting will help tame the shrill headroom of the Trident specifically.

As far as overdrives go, they always go in front of the amp, and never go in the loop.

 

[Geiri]

Yep like chris said

od's in front.

One thing though, my trident always sounds more brittle, shrill, to bright for a couple of minutes after turning it on. then when it starts to heat up in say time span from 30 sec to 3 min after turning it on it kinda soothes itself and the brittle shrilliness fades away.

Maby its just me but this is no fluke and the amp has always behaved like this.

 

[Jedro]

It's a Stage I Trident, and the tubes are stock Mesas.

Jeez, this is hard. Seriously, I've been playing for 25 years and have never had to radically eq to get a good sound. I really appreciate all the input, but it's almost like I have a completely different amp than what some of you are describing. I mean, if I put my mids and highs on 5, it would be completely unbearable. Like aluminum foil, that's how brash.

I feel like the mid frequencies on this amp are too high. For more body, you have to cut (like zero) the mids. Normally it's the opposite.

Like I said before, I CAN get a great sound. It's just that I'm going about it in ways I've never had to. Maybe that's how it is.

I am toying with the idea of a graphic eq in the loop and some compression before the amp. Maybe that will smooth the highs and add some sustain. Or maybe a good overdrive. Any recommendations? Something tubey.

 

[Platypus]

I've owned a Stage I and a Stage II and while they are bright amps, mine never sounded like what you're describing.

Did you check the tubes in the amp? Perhaps they were replaced with something else that is giving you those qualities? If not, try a few different tubes in your preamp and see if you can dial out the excess.

The amp definitely is a mid to upper midrange style though... but both my Stilettos had boogie lead in spades and it was possible to tame and get loads of punchy bass. If you can get the tone out of it except you have to use extreme EQ settings, is that really a big deal ? (no disrespect, just an honest question) When I had a Dual Rectifier I had to put EL34s in and run my bass at 10 to get the tone I liked out of the amp, as an example.

One other note, my personal opinion (grain of salt) was that I much preferred my Stiletto with a Les Paul style guitar.. big hunk of wood and medium output humbuckers. I played a variety of different stuff through mine and I like those the best. My telecaster sounded good but it definitely can get shrill.. I had to alter my EQ a lot with a single coil guitar.

 

[jab]

Jedro: I have added an eq in the loop, compression, and an OD to my Ace. I don't think I could live without any of them. EQ on/off is night & day to my ears or anyone else's in my band; compression really smooths/warms out the tone and adds sustain without having to crank the gain or mess with the tone (Barber Tone Press), and I'm using a high quality OD to give Fat Clean a crunch (Fat clean is FAT/dark sounding by nature so very taming of a Stiletto) and give Tite Clean a kick in the arse for solo's. My guess is crappy pedals won't do you much good - get some good ones.

 

[Jedro]

Thanks for the direct advice! I'm not sure exactly which I'll add first, but I feel like I will end up with a similar setup. Though I haven't really focused on any specific pedal yet, I'm considering an MXR eq and a Fulltone overdrive. I played a Fulltone GT500 (??) yesterday. Sounded pretty **** good after only a couple minutes tweaking. Then again, maybe I'll go the old route and forego the overdrive for a compressor.

Jedro: I have added an eq in the loop, compression, and an OD to my Ace. I don't think I could live without any of them. EQ on/off is night & day to my ears or anyone else's in my band; compression really smooths/warms out the tone and adds sustain without having to crank the gain or mess with the tone (Barber Tone Press), and I'm using a high quality OD to give Fat Clean a crunch (Fat clean is FAT/dark sounding by nature so very taming of a Stiletto) and give Tite Clean a kick in the arse for solo's. My guess is crappy pedals won't do you much good - get some good ones.

 

[Old BF Shred]

For what it's worth, I felt the same way about the Ace. 3 things, in order of ease and low cost:

1-keep presence at 10 o'clock or less.
2-replace v2 with JJ ECC83.
3-use almost any EL34 other than Mesa STR447.

Also a JJ in v1 will help, might be going too far, to your ears; it was to mine. And remember, Stiletto is not known for deep low end.....
good luck

 

[avi8r2005]

I just recently got a killer tone dialed in on my deuce II. I have my mids set at about 11-12'oclock, treble at 12, bass 2-3 o'clock, gain 3-4 o clock and the presence somewhere around 2-3 o clock. Channle volume is around 11-12 o clock, controling using master volume. I also use a sparkle drive in front and a boss SD-1.

 

[paytojt]

Tung Sol preamp tubes have made the most difference in gettng my Ace to sound wonderful. It is warmer, richer, and definitely not harsh.