SPEAKER PREFERENCE WITH MARK III AMPS???

[Mark III Man]

Hi guys:

I am checking for your valued opinions and feedback on differing speaker and cab selections for Mark III amps that you are experienced with. I have a nice green stripe simulclass combo (that I had a long/short chassis head shell made for) and a red stripe simul combo on the way! I'm not a huge fan of the 1 x 12" combo/EV speaker combination, but it's good for what it is. I don't cotton-up to the EV tone and I guess I'm more of a Celestion guy, speaker-wise...

I also have a slew of cabs that I have tried the green stripe with; some at gigs, some only at home. They are as follows:

Marshall (sorry, I know it's the Boogie Forum! LOL) 4 x 12" slant with original Celestion G12-65s @ 16 ohms

very nice overall tone, mids are not too in yer face needing extra EQ "V" mid scoop; highs can be a tad fizzy; bass is tight as long as it's low (0 to 2) on the PULLED Bass knob; for a 260 watt cab, it's not super in your face volume or presence-wise; this is my 2ond fav cab with my Marshall 50 or 100 heads.... The 65s kill for 80's metal and clean up good too.... I think the 8 ohms > 16 ohm cabinet are part of the tone....

Marshall straight 4 x 12" with original G12Ms @ 16 ohm

tone, tone and more tone but the cab needs pushing (only 100 watts) and don't sound as good or clean at low volumes; the depth and timbre of this cab is amazing, but it is darker and more bassy than the slant 4 x 12", so I watch the lows; the "Mesa" mids are totally non-honkish and smear with the overdrive nicely (but ya still need the EQ to cut them 50% or so); R2 kills with the Input gain at 5.5 - I don't even bother with the R1 it's so weak sounding... the Lead channel sounds huge and doesn't need the gain control as cranked with this cab to still get singing overdrive and feedback.... My fav cab hands-down. Again, 8 ohms > 16 ohms

Avatar Vintage 2 x 12" closed back cab with Weber G12-65 clones @ 8 ohm

This cab is a lower powered-sounding "twin" of the slant cab with G12-65's; It doesn't have the power of the 4 x 12 and needs to be cranked up more to bring out it's best tones... When it is cranked, it sounds great, isn't harsh, has big meaty greenback-sounding mids, super-tight low end and is light weight/portable. This cab is better for crunch and lead than cleanish tones, I don't think the Weber 65 clones have as much headroom as the Celestion 65s.... The Marshalls drive this cab better than the Mark III power-wise...

Mojo Cabs 1 x 12" open back cab with either Weber G12-65 clone or Scum Back V30 clone @ 8 ohms

This little 1 x 12" cab is amazing with either speaker, but is much more efficient and in your face sounding with the Scum Back spkr in it. This 1 x 12" keeps up with the slant 65 cab volume-wise, but I don't know how, maybe since it's open backed? The Scum Back is better for metal and more aggressive sounding rock; with the Weber spkr, it's similar to the 4 or 2 x 12" G12-65 tones. This cab has more low end than the slant 4 x 12 or Avatar 2 x 12 cabs... And since it's an open-back cab, it has a lot more stage back-fill which annoys my drummer! LOL! I switch between speakers and can't decide which one suits better....

Your comments and ridicule are welcome!

Brian

 

[Cgonzer]

Hey Brian,
I ran into the same 'Tone' with cabinets...I have a Mesa Mark III (red stripe simuclass) and tried the Marshall with vintage 30's / with 75's ..I still have the 80's Mesa 4x12 (metal grill) even tried the Recto cabs..well one of the best cabs I found to match it is the Hartke 4x12 Angled.. It has Celestion 80's made for Hartke speakers and is lighter in weght..overall mids are tight with less bottom than the Mesa / Marshall, but with the Mark III EQ I get all the bottom I need..this cab rated at 320 watts has never gotten muddy, it actually gets crisper at higher volumes. Price is great..

also here are some mp3's I have playing the cabinet..some with the Mesa Mark III and some with Bogner Line 6

http://www.upload-mp3.com/browse/Gonzer2009/17217

Hope this helps out..pretty much it comes down to trying out as many as you can..I record every chance I get to hear the difference ...

Best Regards Randy

 

[Restless Rocks]

The EV loaded combo on top of an EV loaded theile. No need for further discussion.

 

[zebpedersen]

The EV loaded combo on top of an EV loaded theile. No need for further discussion.

Would be my personal preference too, but as the OP says, he doesn't dig it - so out of the question here.

Have you considered any metal grille cabs from the era? Particularly the ones EV/Celestion loaded ones? Even if you aren't down with the EV tone and love the Celestion, combine their plusses and they make a formidable combo, to be sure.

 

[edward]

Maybe you don't like the EVM in an open cab, or in a 412 box? (personally, I have found the EVM alone in an open cab to be strident for my taste ...it works better when playing with another speaker IMHO).

I have to tell you that an EVM12L in a Thiele cab is a wholly different animal and a thing of absolute tonal beauty. But I don't play my thiele alone; couple this with a MC90 (which as you know is a Celestion) in an open cab and this is the magic combo, IMHO. The warmth and smooth mids of the Celestion really fill where the EVM-Theile misses. Likewise, the superbly tight and authoritative bottom end of the thiele provides what the MC cannot. Beyond the glorious tone of the two together is the added bonus that it is far easier to transport these two boxes than a 212, let alone a 412. Hope that helps you a bit.

Edward

 

[Facelift]

Im currently running mine into warhead cabs. 4x12 has vintage 30s and the 2x15 has jaguars. Tone is huge, no mud, and very thick sounding with lots of punch. Couldnt ask for anything better at this point.

 

[rvschulz]

i am currently running a 2x12 vertical metal grill cab with one MS-12 and one Black Shadow. going to swap the Black Shadow for an EVM-12 ... I can't really see anymore why anyone really needs a 4x12 unless you have a "my **** is BIGGER" than your stuff thing going on.

If I need more that a 2x12 ... the PA guy isn't doing his job. Good luck with your search.

 

[GIG4FUN]

But I just tried the "foam donut - beam blocker" with my combo (1x12) with the EV and man the change is dramatic!! Everything sounds so much more well defined and clearer!! Quite amazing!

a bit off topic... (sorry)
I need to get on this on a few of my amps and cabs! We had an outdoor gig last sat night and a few of my buds sat straight line to my peavey classic (yeah I kept the boogies in the truck.... haha) and said it was killing them straight on! I KNEW I should have made up a few. I sure could have used it on that gig. (It's loaded with Celestion Vintage 30 (60watt) and does sound very good... I didn't feel a bit bad about my "tone" through it yadi yadi "defend defend"...

If anyone has the time to read that 4,976 page thread...

So you liked it George! I'm on it for sure now.

 

[JOEY B.]

i am currently running a 2x12 vertical metal grill cab with one MS-12 and one Black Shadow. going to swap the Black Shadow for an EVM-12 ...

Black Shadow (if you look around it has been stated many times on the board) is a generic name/ Mesa put on any number of speakers used in Mesa cabs including the EVM-12L.
So what "Black Shadow" do you have in there right now?

Fwiw I like the MS-12 (Eminence) in a 1x12 open back combined with an EV in a thiele.....

But I just tried the "foam donut - beam blocker" with my combo (1x12) with the EV and man the change is dramatic!! Everything sounds so much more well defined and clearer!! Quite amazing!

Foam Donut = Fizzy Lifter ?????

 

[GIG4FUN]

i am currently running a 2x12 vertical metal grill cab with one MS-12 and one Black Shadow. going to swap the Black Shadow for an EVM-12 ...

Black Shadow (if you look around it has been stated many times on the board) is a generic name/ Mesa put on any number of speakers used in Mesa cabs including the EVM-12L.
So what "Black Shadow" do you have in there right now?

Fwiw I like the MS-12 (Eminence) in a 1x12 open back combined with an EV in a thiele.....

But I just tried the "foam donut - beam blocker" with my combo (1x12) with the EV and man the change is dramatic!! Everything sounds so much more well defined and clearer!! Quite amazing!

Foam Donut = Fizzy Lifter ?????

How much time you got?

haha

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=470956

 

[GIG4FUN]

How much time you got?

haha

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=470956

Yeah that thread is good but here's the article he wrote:
http://www.tgpwebzine.com/?page_id=424

Some high frequencies were cut down as stated in the thread and article but easily made up by adjusting the tone controls.
In fact I can, and now use the Presence where before it was always set at "0".
It's really changed the way I hear things in a very positive way. It's new and fresh and I should probably experiment such as take it off, put it back on, go back and forth a couple of times to be sure but so far I don't want to take it off!

shoot!
I meant to include that!
Thank you

 

[glawk]

Secret Speaker List for Mark Series Boogies


1x12 Thiele: EVM 12L
1x12 Open: MS-12
2x12 Closed: V30
2x12 Open or halfback: JBL K120 or the altecs
4x12 Closed Oversize: V30
4x12 Open or Closed Standard: original G12-65's


If you run simul class with the outer pair el-34's and also use a more british voiced speaker like the ms-12 or g12-65 (which are way better than greenbacks btw...and you cant blow them as easy) you can get right into hot rod marshall territory with a mark III.

The best overall speaker is probably the EVM 12L...nothing betters it in articulation (except maybe the JBL/altec). It has great bass response in closed cabinets...and it suits the mark series (when you use this speaker you are going to want to bump up the mid cut when switching from something like a v30).

 

[glawk]

Forgot to mention... if you find that the mark III is a little fizzy through a certain speaker its probably the amp. That is one of the big differences I found between the III and the IIC+

 

[rvschulz]

sorry for the "black shadow" reference ... it is a MC-90. I like them, but still going ot replace with the EVM-12L tonight.

 

[edward]

How much time you got?

haha

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=470956

Yeah that thread is good but here's the article he wrote:
http://www.tgpwebzine.com/?page_id=424

Some high frequencies were cut down as stated in the thread and article but easily made up by adjusting the tone controls.
In fact I can, and now use the Presence where before it was always set at "0".
It's really changed the way I hear things in a very positive way. It's new and fresh and I should probably experiment such as take it off, put it back on, go back and forth a couple of times to be sure but so far I don't want to take it off!

This is OT to the original post, but relevant here:
I tried this solution and just did not like it. I used proper 1/2" acoustic foam, cut the center exactly as he said, and popped it in. Not only did I not like what it did to the highs, but it seemed to change the voice of the mids and low mids, as well. Which I know should not happen, as he said the foam was stransparent to the lower frequencies. Not in my case it ...the whole voice changed ...subtle, but enough that I did not care for it. It did eliminate the "beamy" quality of the cab, as stated though. But that did me no good if the sound changed for the poorer.

Keep in mind I DID try a variety of different eq'ing to restore the on-center tone. Keep in mind that I DID do lots of A/B testing to be certain that I could repeat my findings. And yes, I DID try standing at different distances and angles ...then repeated different settings. My findings were I just did not care for the tonal change the donut imparted. These were my findings, under my conditions, so do bear that in mind.

Just do yourself a favor and be honest: trust your ears when you experiment. Just because it worked for others does not mean it will work for you. In my case, a plastic disc in the middle of the grill was marginally (but discernably) better than the naked grill, and said foam donut was a bust. Just one of those times where it sounds better in print than in real life

Edward

 

[edward]

Hey Edward,
Did you use open cell foam? Density of 4?

I liked what you said in your last paragraph (or started saying).
But then with your last sentence in that paragraph you totally contradict it.

Just do yourself a favor and be honest: trust your ears when you experiment. Just because it worked for others does not mean it will work for you. .....<snip>..... Just one of those times where it sounds better in print than in real life

Fwiw to all: it's a $5 experiment (cost of the foam) and easily reversed

Hey gts,

Naw, no contradiction. I meant "for me" ...I tried to make that clear.

I went in with no preconceptions, but did hope that it would work. It didn't ...again, for me and my ears. The only reason I said as I did is many folks (myself too, at one time) read a "great solution" that sounds (reads) like the real deal. They then go out and do the same and "swear by it" ...but is is really an "improvement" or just a change of tone? Witness tube swaps. Lots of folks do that and "swear" there is an improvment. Change, maybe; improvment, well...

All I was saying is that I learned years ago to be honest and abide by what my ears say, cost and brand be damned. FWIW, I did so with tubes with all my amps and some did sound better, others not, still others imperceptible, irrespective of how much each cost. So yes, I encourage all to feel free to experiment with this ...for me it was a bust. That's all I was saying.

Oh, and as to the foam, dunno the density rating. But I did get "acoustic foam" in 1/2" thickness from a speaker/cab shop. Maybe that's the reason it failed for me ...too dense and absorbed some of that EVM goodness??

Edward

 

[flip33]

I made a couple donuts for my 2x12 cab with Eminence speakers: Red Ryder and a Tonespotter. It really got rid of the beam, and I am happy with the tone. I used the #4 foam from the recommended company (McMaster). It notched out the highs a bit, which can be EQ'd.