Some different Boost/OD options

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MesaENGR412

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Hey guys, I just got the new Musician's Friend and see that they have started carrying more pedals from Keeley and MXR like the Keeley Compressor, and Katana and the MXR Custom Audio Electronic Boost designed by Bob Bradshaw. I was just wondering if any of these would be a better solution to put in front of (or in the loop of) my Triple to tighten it up rather than the Maxon-OD808 pedal? OR should I just stick with it and get the overdrive pedal? I'm looking for a KsE type searing distortion with good harmonics and dynamics. MY amp does this at louder volumes, but, sometimes the venues don't really call for that. Thanks guys for any info about these pedals, I appreciate any info.

-AJH
 
AJH,

I can't address the Bradshaw unit since I'm not familiar with it. However, the Keeley Compressor, while pretty much the standard in boutique compressors, won't do much to tighten up your Triple Rec. In order to understand this, we must first get a little more clear in defining what "tightening up" a Recto really means, since it's not exactly put together with loose-fitting nuts and bolts.

Firstly, it means reducing some of the ~200Hz content of the frequency response. This is because these frequencies more than any others are responsible for that sound we commonly refer to as mud. The result of too much of this frequency range in your sound is that, no matter much you turn up the bass, it will not get 'chunkier' and more percussive sounding, it will simply be louder and louder mud.

The next aspect of 'tightening' is to (optionally) add in just a little ~100Hz bass to make up for the cut you made in the bass at~200Hz. These lower frequencies aren't necessarily more musical, and can cause just as many problems in a studio recording situation as the 200's, but they do impart a more percussive quality (think: thump & chug) to the live sound of a guitar amp, especially in a head/cab rig.

The third aspect of 'tightening', which applies especially well to the Recto series of amps, is to reintroduce some missing mid-range frequencies back to the signal. Marshall Plexi's and JCM-800's of the 1970's and 80's were famous for providing a truly 'singing' guitar tone, especially in solos, and perhaps most notably when famously paired with a Gibson Les Paul. Let's face it, Marshall is famous for defining 90% of what rock n' roll guitar is.

When Randall created a successful alternative to that sound with the Recto series, he had to accomplish a few things to make it a true alternative, and not just another also-ran, to the hotrodded Marshall sound that ruled at the time. He had to provide more bass response than the Marshalls did. This was because this was unapologetically a heavy metal guitar amp, regardless of whatever else you can do with it. Part of this was accomplished by using 6L6's for power tubes instead of the less-bassy EL-34's that Marshalls used. Another part was by tuning the Recto's tone stack to give more lower mids instead of the medium-to-high mids that Marshall was famous for. This gave the amp a darker sound with fuller bass. Unfortunately, it left it more vulnerable than the Marshall for the bass to get muddy in the process.

He also had to provide more scooped and compressed mids right off the bat, since it had become quite fashionable to use EQ's of various kinds to scoop the mids, especially at 800Hz, out of the classically mid-heavy Marshalls in order to approximate the sound that Metallica and other thrash metal bands had established as the heavier-than-thou sound of the time.

The result was one of the heaviest guitar amps ever made. Without the aid of effects or EQ's, the stock Recto crushed the stock JCM-800 for heavy metal rhythm guitar and for pure gain, and thus began the conversion of many younger guitarists away from Marshall's lock on the heavy metal market and over to Mesa.

However, one of the prices paid for that triumph was the frank loss of some of the mid-range frequency response so essential to good solo tone, and while Mesa made an amp that crushed the Marshall for heavy rhythm tone, it did so by sacrificing the solo tone noticeably. At the time, this was a smart gamble on Randall's part, since the trend in music was not only toward heavier rhythm, but also completely away from what was seen at the time as the solo excess of the 80's. With hindsight, it's now generally accepted that the pendulum swung too far in the other direction, and the result was that the 90's were perhaps the lowest period for electric guitar solos since before Chuck Berry popularized its use.

Frankly, Randall could afford not to care too much what his changes did to the solo tone of his new revolutionary amp, because the users themselves didn't care about their own solo tone in the slightest. They just wanted heavier, lower and louder...and they got it.

What the Maxon OD808 and other types of overdrive can do is to give a much-needed boost to the mids and upper mids (~600Hz to ~3.2kHz) that not only helps your solo tone to get back the "singing" quality that's been generally missing for the last 15 years in solos since the Recto took over as the most recorded amp, it also brings some life back to your power chords and single-note riffs by helping them cut through the mix more.

BTW, the Maxon OD808 is a fine overdrive pedal for that purpose. If you like Keeley's products, you should hear what he does with a Boss SD-1. I've got one of his 5-Star modded ones and it's absolutely incredible as an overdrive. The Katana is not an overdrive, per se, it is a clean boost, and a very good one. It does, however, have an optional switch that adds some very nice harmonic content to its boosting capability. Keeley's Java Boost is also not an overdrive, in the classic sense, nor is it a clean boost either. That doesn't stop me from recommending it (or equivalent products) as perhaps the single best thing you can do for your solo tone if you're a Triple Rec user, which I am.

Treble boosters like the Java Boost have two main effects on your guitar sound. First, they act as a preamp for the treble frequencies, meaning the higher the frequency, the more it gets boosted. This allows incredible amounts of gain on the higher notes of your solos, with all the extra sustain that comes with it, without simultaneously muddying up your bass, something that is difficult to impossible to do with overdrives.

The other main effect comes from the fact that they use real germanium transistors, which have the peculiar and wonderful attribute of adding in lots of even-order harmonics to your sound when overdriven. Nothing else on the market helps your guitar's solo tone "sing" through a tube amp the way a good boutique-level germanium treble booster can.
 
What's really nice (and I say this from personal experience) is the fact that you don't have to choose between a good germanium treble booster and a good overdrive. In fact, there is almost always included in the instructions of various treble boosters the recommendation that you run the treble booster before the overdrive, then into the tube amp.

This lets you leave the overdrive on all the time (which gives you a great tight-but-with-huge-gain rhythm/riffing sound), then punch in the treble booster when it's time for solos to get even more gain with no mud and the sweetest singing quality to your solos you've ever heard, especially coming out of a Triple Recto! You absolutely have to hear this combination with a good quality delay in the loop...it rivals the sweetest of Marshalls for solo tone with seemingly endless sustain, where held notes gradually feedback into overtones one or two octaves higher.
 
AJH,

You know....this discussion has inspired me to do some tinkering. After re-reading my own post, I'm noticing that all the treble booster guys give you the recommendation of putting their pedal in front of a good overdrive, but that to my knowledge, nobody has ever actually made a pedal that way. I make custom pedals myself, and I've made each of these kinds of pedals before separately. I think I'm going to produce a pedal that contains both units in the same housing.

If you're interested, I'll let you know how the experiment turns out.
 
Chris McKinley said:
AJH,

You know....this discussion has inspired me to do some tinkering. After re-reading my own post, I'm noticing that all the treble booster guys give you the recommendation of putting their pedal in front of a good overdrive, but that to my knowledge, nobody has ever actually made a pedal that way. I make custom pedals myself, and I've made each of these kinds of pedals before separately. I think I'm going to produce a pedal that contains both units in the same housing.

If you're interested, I'll let you know how the experiment turns out.

I'm very interested! I've been talking to a custom pedal maker about such a beast. We're trying to work out a Clean Boost switch to plug into a great OD/Distortion pedal with 5 band EQ. The concept so far though would have a switch to Clean boost, so it wouldn't be boosting ahead of the OD/Distortion side. I'm fearful that it's trying to do to much and will create problems?

Anyhoo please update with your findings/thoughts.
 
oatman,

What you're describing has already been done, and fairly well, in the Fulltone GT-500, which has a clean boost/overdrive on one side, and a distortion on the other. The distortion channel has a bass, very active mid, and a treble control. They can be run independently or simultaneously, and set up so that either one comes first in the chain. BTW, this is the way to go in that good overdrive and good distortion aren't the same thing at all, and don't belong together on one side. However, what the GT-500 doesn't do is to give you the built-in 5-band EQ you mentioned.

The pedal I described to AJH that I might build will have a treble booster and a clean boost/overdrive in the same unit. Since I posted that, I've had further ideas in that direction, and I'm thinking of expanding my business to the internet in addition to individual close customers. There are a lot of really great boutique pedal makers out there, but what I will offer that's different is to allow the customer to tell me what he wants and to custom make it for him, not just make him choose from a fixed line of products.

Let me know how your project goes, I hope you have the best of success in pulling it off.
 
Hi There. Here is the MXR MC-402 Boost & Overdrive pedal. I bought this pedal for creating Brian May type of sound on my Vox AC30CC. and it does make pretty cool sound with Class A amp. But with Mesa..... that's little bit different story. if you are trying to use this for only solo, then it is OK. but if you are creating Mesa distortion plus boost might be too boomy. It does make it more punchy and beefy sound but not too smooth. Although this pedal does works so good if gain is not too high for Mesa. It is pretty cool pedal I think. And price is not too high like fulltone.









http://www.jimdunlop.com/index.php?page=products/pip&id=264&pmh=products/p_and_e_detail
 
Chris McKinley said:
What's really nice (and I say this from personal experience) is the fact that you don't have to choose between a good germanium treble booster and a good overdrive. In fact, there is almost always included in the instructions of various treble boosters the recommendation that you run the treble booster before the overdrive, then into the tube amp.

This lets you leave the overdrive on all the time (which gives you a great tight-but-with-huge-gain rhythm/riffing sound), then punch in the treble booster when it's time for solos to get even more gain with no mud and the sweetest singing quality to your solos you've ever heard, especially coming out of a Triple Recto! You absolutely have to hear this combination with a good quality delay in the loop...it rivals the sweetest of Marshalls for solo tone with seemingly endless sustain, where held notes gradually feedback into overtones one or two octaves higher.

Great post as usual Chris. I have been running a tubescreamer into a BB xotic preamp to muster sustain. I am not pleased with the sound but it gets closer to the lead sound I want.

What treble booster do you recommend ? I have contemplated a Beano Boost from Analogman. Any thoughts/suggestions ?
 
I use a few of my pedals to boost the tubes in my amp slightly and ofr distortion, but an Ibanez GE7 pedal works great if you want to define which frequencies you want to boost. Any GEQ pedal will do but I like this one. I also use a Ibanez SD-9 as a boost more-so than distortion. It has a shrill tone that can be used to hot rod a fender or clean channel very nicely. I havenet tried it on a Rect, but it should offer some interesting effects.

$0.02
 
stompboxfreak72,

RE: "What treble booster do you recommend ?". Mine of course! At least when it comes out. :D Mostly because I can make a product of at least equal quality for much less than some of the bigger name guys charge, and I give a lifetime warranty on materials and workmanship on everything I sell.

That said, I only have my own handmade one right now, and it's staying in my rig. I don't have the design fully completed on the idea I mentioned in this thread. So, in the interest of helping a guitarist out rather than just making a buck, if you need one right now, the Analogman Beano is good, the Keeley Java Boost is almost the industry standard for quality, and it comes in a dual with clean boost called the Time Machine which is also very good. Zvex, Diaz and HBE all make good ones, too. It's not a difficult circuit to do well, so there are plenty of really good ones out there.
 
love my Barber Direct Drive SS pedal.

i can smooth it out, or make my MKIIB crunchy like a marshall...

true bypass, is sweet.

having 4 internal trim pots to dial in my OWN sound, is sweet as well.

the newer model doesn't have as many bells and whistles, but they do customization as well....
for the price, you just can't beat it.
 
I run a Crispy Cream Treblebooster in front of a BBE Boosta Grande boost. I only use the trebleboost for solos. Sounds amazing. I mostly
use that combo with my VHT 50/ST head. It is a medium gain amp so I leave the boost on all the time. Sounds great. Cleans still sound
amazing too. Then with the TB on solos that amp just sings! I run that combo too with a MKIV sometimes but dialed down a lot more
since the MKIV has so much gain already.
 
Question regarding the treble booster (because now i'm intrigued)... In front of a super clean channel what would be the results? I guess where I'm coming from is I've been thinking about a clean boost to put infront of my OCD and basically keep the OCD on at all times and use the clean boost when i want things to go to 11. At the same time i wanted to use the clean boost for my cleans as well to help me balance the channels a little better and hopefully get a a little more sparkle (kind of like when i engagethe solo switch). So i'm wondering should i go the treble booster route and just use the solo function on the amp to balance out the volumes (basically running the clean channel with the solo on to bring it up to the colume of the gainier channels), or go with the clean boost?

On my radar has been these:
Keeley Katana
Creation Audio MK.42.23
MXR MC401
CatalinBread Super Chili Picoso

Also any thoughts on the Tech 21 Boost RVB... not sure if thats a pedal for infront of te amp or in the loop.
 
In answer to the question about a "clean boost" - I find that the beano into my dual rec effectively gives me 6 channels from the 3 ... But you can't really boost the clean channel and keep it clean. If you want to boost volume only ... it's the solo swtich you need

With the beano set to boost volume slightly, I have the clean channel set clean, "sparkly" with the presence low (as super clean as I can get it!). With the beano on this then turns it into a "pushed" sound with the channel saturating just slightly. Great vintage bluesey sound which I love. - So my clean channel becomes two channels: super clean and slightly saturated.

This is a very different effect to the solo switch; which mostly just ups the volume and has much less effect on the tone. (Although you do get a tone change as you work the tubes harder - you have to add a hell of a lot of volume to get a relatively small amount of tone change) The "boost" adds volume to the signal all the way through the pre amp and power amp so has a big effect on the tone and "tube break up" characteristics of the sound, giving you much more tone change than volume change!

For me, I have the Orange (2) channel set liquid bluesy ... with the beano on it becomes crunchier. I can get two great sounds from this channel by hitting the boost.

Red (3) channel is high gain anyway, and the beano gives more "bite" to the high gain lead sound without making it sound "tinny".

I've found that adding treble or mid adds bite to the tone which obviously allows the sound to cut through the mix more in a live environment, adding volume into the front end of the amp adds saturation. The overall volume does rise (noticably on the clean channel, a bit on the orange channel and hardly at all on the red channel as it's so high gain anyway).

The overall volume change is much more noticable on the clean channel as it is more dynamic. This isn't a big problem for me as when I want the boost, a little higher volume is usually ok anyway.

I think any boost is best between the guitar and the amp ... unless of course you want the boosted sound through the tubes to be mixed with the unboosted sound .... which I guess could sound interesting anyway? ....!?

You do have to give thought if you're boosting volume, as to where in the effects chain you put the boost, as a volume change is going to change how individual effects act on the sound they are processing - some may not like the signal being too hot

At the end of the day it's down to what sound you like - I guess there is no hard and fast rule.

(and all the above is purely what I have personally found with the Beano and the Dual rec and how I use them ... different amps and different boosts are gonna get different effects.......... !!!) ...

I'm also actually contemplating a Blues Driver or other OD pedal to play with as well!
 
Chris McKinley said:
AJH,

I can't address the Bradshaw unit since I'm not familiar with it. However, the Keeley Compressor, while pretty much the standard in boutique compressors, won't do much to tighten up your Triple Rec. In order to understand this, we must first get a little more clear in defining what "tightening up" a Recto really means, since it's not exactly put together with loose-fitting nuts and bolts.

Firstly, it means reducing some of the ~200Hz content of the frequency response. This is because these frequencies more than any others are responsible for that sound we commonly refer to as mud. The result of too much of this frequency range in your sound is that, no matter much you turn up the bass, it will not get 'chunkier' and more percussive sounding, it will simply be louder and louder mud.

The next aspect of 'tightening' is to (optionally) add in just a little ~100Hz bass to make up for the cut you made in the bass at~200Hz. These lower frequencies aren't necessarily more musical, and can cause just as many problems in a studio recording situation as the 200's, but they do impart a more percussive quality (think: thump & chug) to the live sound of a guitar amp, especially in a head/cab rig.

The third aspect of 'tightening', which applies especially well to the Recto series of amps, is to reintroduce some missing mid-range frequencies back to the signal. Marshall Plexi's and JCM-800's of the 1970's and 80's were famous for providing a truly 'singing' guitar tone, especially in solos, and perhaps most notably when famously paired with a Gibson Les Paul. Let's face it, Marshall is famous for defining 90% of what rock n' roll guitar is.

When Randall created a successful alternative to that sound with the Recto series, he had to accomplish a few things to make it a true alternative, and not just another also-ran, to the hotrodded Marshall sound that ruled at the time. He had to provide more bass response than the Marshalls did. This was because this was unapologetically a heavy metal guitar amp, regardless of whatever else you can do with it. Part of this was accomplished by using 6L6's for power tubes instead of the less-bassy EL-34's that Marshalls used. Another part was by tuning the Recto's tone stack to give more lower mids instead of the medium-to-high mids that Marshall was famous for. This gave the amp a darker sound with fuller bass. Unfortunately, it left it more vulnerable than the Marshall for the bass to get muddy in the process.

He also had to provide more scooped and compressed mids right off the bat, since it had become quite fashionable to use EQ's of various kinds to scoop the mids, especially at 800Hz, out of the classically mid-heavy Marshalls in order to approximate the sound that Metallica and other thrash metal bands had established as the heavier-than-thou sound of the time.

The result was one of the heaviest guitar amps ever made. Without the aid of effects or EQ's, the stock Recto crushed the stock JCM-800 for heavy metal rhythm guitar and for pure gain, and thus began the conversion of many younger guitarists away from Marshall's lock on the heavy metal market and over to Mesa.

However, one of the prices paid for that triumph was the frank loss of some of the mid-range frequency response so essential to good solo tone, and while Mesa made an amp that crushed the Marshall for heavy rhythm tone, it did so by sacrificing the solo tone noticeably. At the time, this was a smart gamble on Randall's part, since the trend in music was not only toward heavier rhythm, but also completely away from what was seen at the time as the solo excess of the 80's. With hindsight, it's now generally accepted that the pendulum swung too far in the other direction, and the result was that the 90's were perhaps the lowest period for electric guitar solos since before Chuck Berry popularized its use.

Frankly, Randall could afford not to care too much what his changes did to the solo tone of his new revolutionary amp, because the users themselves didn't care about their own solo tone in the slightest. They just wanted heavier, lower and louder...and they got it.

What the Maxon OD808 and other types of overdrive can do is to give a much-needed boost to the mids and upper mids (~600Hz to ~3.2kHz) that not only helps your solo tone to get back the "singing" quality that's been generally missing for the last 15 years in solos since the Recto took over as the most recorded amp, it also brings some life back to your power chords and single-note riffs by helping them cut through the mix more.

BTW, the Maxon OD808 is a fine overdrive pedal for that purpose. If you like Keeley's products, you should hear what he does with a Boss SD-1. I've got one of his 5-Star modded ones and it's absolutely incredible as an overdrive. The Katana is not an overdrive, per se, it is a clean boost, and a very good one. It does, however, have an optional switch that adds some very nice harmonic content to its boosting capability. Keeley's Java Boost is also not an overdrive, in the classic sense, nor is it a clean boost either. That doesn't stop me from recommending it (or equivalent products) as perhaps the single best thing you can do for your solo tone if you're a Triple Rec user, which I am.

Treble boosters like the Java Boost have two main effects on your guitar sound. First, they act as a preamp for the treble frequencies, meaning the higher the frequency, the more it gets boosted. This allows incredible amounts of gain on the higher notes of your solos, with all the extra sustain that comes with it, without simultaneously muddying up your bass, something that is difficult to impossible to do with overdrives.

The other main effect comes from the fact that they use real germanium transistors, which have the peculiar and wonderful attribute of adding in lots of even-order harmonics to your sound when overdriven. Nothing else on the market helps your guitar's solo tone "sing" through a tube amp the way a good boutique-level germanium treble booster can.

Thank you for that post - it has answered so many questions about the dual rec and tone, that have flown through my mind while going through different settings, tubes and effects... It's summed the Rec up in a way that no one else (that I've heard) has managed.


I'm actually considering replacing the rec with a Mark V or a Road King - the blurb on them seems to say that both they do everything ..... are there major differences? .... if so what are the fundamental ones?
 
oatman said:
Chris McKinley said:
AJH,

You know....this discussion has inspired me to do some tinkering. After re-reading my own post, I'm noticing that all the treble booster guys give you the recommendation of putting their pedal in front of a good overdrive, but that to my knowledge, nobody has ever actually made a pedal that way. I make custom pedals myself, and I've made each of these kinds of pedals before separately. I think I'm going to produce a pedal that contains both units in the same housing.

If you're interested, I'll let you know how the experiment turns out.

I'm very interested! I've been talking to a custom pedal maker about such a beast. We're trying to work out a Clean Boost switch to plug into a great OD/Distortion pedal with 5 band EQ. The concept so far though would have a switch to Clean boost, so it wouldn't be boosting ahead of the OD/Distortion side. I'm fearful that it's trying to do to much and will create problems?

Anyhoo please update with your findings/thoughts.

Sounds like you're wanting one of those:

TriEfxOV_lateral_g.jpg



as for boost, imo you should use an od that's not so heavy, something like a Barber LTD or such. a heavier pedal will bring some overtones that you may not like, plus noise.
 
Chris McKinley said:
What's really nice (and I say this from personal experience) is the fact that you don't have to choose between a good germanium treble booster and a good overdrive. In fact, there is almost always included in the instructions of various treble boosters the recommendation that you run the treble booster before the overdrive, then into the tube amp.

This lets you leave the overdrive on all the time (which gives you a great tight-but-with-huge-gain rhythm/riffing sound), then punch in the treble booster when it's time for solos to get even more gain with no mud and the sweetest singing quality to your solos you've ever heard, especially coming out of a Triple Recto! You absolutely have to hear this combination with a good quality delay in the loop...it rivals the sweetest of Marshalls for solo tone with seemingly endless sustain, where held notes gradually feedback into overtones one or two octaves higher.

Chris, I have a Mark 4, a ts808, and an american strat. I have a really great rythym tone. I want my solos to jump out and my fast picking and legato to be effotless, as on other amps ive tried. Sounds like the treble booster is my next quest.
 

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