Single Rectifier Volume Question

[H3ADLY]

Hey guys, new to the forum and need some assistance regarding my Single Rectifier.

Just got hold of a second hand, series one Single Rec and it sounds great... Until I push the master and output controls to halfway.
I play in a Heavy/Death/Core/Metal (call it what you want) band and I notice that once I push the the master volume and output controls to half (on the Lead channel-Modern mode), the amp looses all manner of tightness, and palm muting no longer chugs, but kind of breaks up into a loose, toneless gargle.

My rig consists of an LTD M-300 with a Dimarzio Crunch Lab and Liquifire, Single Rec boosted with a TS9 into a Marshall 1960A 4x12 cab.
I have tried to EQ it out, different combinations of the Master and Output controls, different guitars, different tubes, different cabs but to no avail.

Is this merely exactly that, the amp reaching maximum output and breaking up?

Thanks for any help!

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

I'm not sure, but it could be that you're pushing the output section to extremes. Our other guitar player has a Single and I can check later where his volume settings are ... both to middle sounds pretty loud if I remember right ...

You changed the power tubes already ?

 

[H3ADLY]

Thanks for your reply.
I have tried replacing the power tubes but the same result occurred.
If you could check with your other guitarist that would be an awesome reference.
Both at half is very loud but is just where i need it when we are playing a mid sized club that is not mic'd up.

Thanks again for any help!

 

[YellowJacket]

Yup. The master on halfway (modern) is where the power tubes start to break up. At that point you are 'old schoolin' it. With a Triple Recto, you'll only get about 5db beyond what the single can put out at those volumes. It is HELLA LOUD though, which probably means you have one hard hitting drummer.

The 4 x 12 you are running might be a problem. The G12T 75s are loose, mid scooped, and less efficient speakers than the v30s that Mesa ships stock in their cabs. At extremely high volumes, you're probably getting quite a bit of speaker distortion, which will contribute to this mud and tightness issue you are complaining about. My suggestion would be to ditch the Marshall 1960a and instead, run a stiletto sized Mesa 4 x 12 (acquire it USED). You can then dime the midrange when you require that much cut and projection. The guitar frequencies live in the midrange so if you punch those frequencies out, you'll be heard much better. You could also run KT88 or 6550 power tubes for more clean headroom but truthfully, it won't make THAT much difference.
The difference between a Marshall 1960a cab and a Stiletto cab (efficiency wise) is the same as the difference between a 50 and a 100watt head.

There is also the option to 'upgrade' to a Triple Recto and run a fullstack. That will make a difference with tightness and projection at those volumes. It is a $$$$ problem though. I suggest turning up the mids to full FIRST and see how much it helps! (You'll probably have to back off the gain a bit) Second option will be to acquire a Stiletto 4 x 12. (The Recto 4 x 12s are bigger sounding but less tight, which sucks) If that still is not enough, sell your single and acquire a Triple used. Triples are beefy and aggressive in a psychotic sort of way. Could be fun!

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=59040

 

[H3ADLY]

Awesome! Thankyou for the insight. I have a good bit of experimenting to do now!

My original idea was to take two of the G12t-75's out and replace them with Vintage 30's in an X pattern. Having a 2x12 cab loaded with vintage 30's already, I could definatley hear an improvement when i drove both cabs side by side.

Ill have to go through some trial and error before making a proper decision.
Would the Triple Rectifier allow me to reach the volumes I want without the breakup that the single gets?

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[Nomad100]

Is this merely exactly that, the amp reaching maximum output and breaking up?

Thanks for any help!

I think the above statement is really what's going on. I think you need more wattage, as in a 100 watter.

I used a rectoverb for some old shool metal a couple years ago. The amp sounded great, until I got up on the volume. At halfway up, the sound went away. Too flubby and un-defined. My heavy palm mutes turned to mush.

For me, the answer was a 100 Watt amp. I picked up a new Multiwatt Dual Rect. While it's not that much louder than a 50, it is louder. Main thing is that at the volume I ran the Rectoverb at, the Dual stays tight with great definition.

 

[H3ADLY]

Good to know man thanks!
Looks like it may be the best to look into a dual or triple Rectifier, rather than a new cab.

Cheers!

 

[YellowJacket]

Awesome! Thankyou for the insight. I have a good bit of experimenting to do now!

My original idea was to take two of the G12t-75's out and replace them with Vintage 30's in an X pattern. Having a 2x12 cab loaded with vintage 30's already, I could definatley hear an improvement when i drove both cabs side by side.

May I suggest G12k 100s in an X pattern with v30s? They will be tighter and less flubby / ratty than the G12T 75s. :twisted:

Ill have to go through some trial and error before making a proper decision.
Would the Triple Rectifier allow me to reach the volumes I want without the breakup that the single gets?

Yes. But in addition to more headroom, you want tighter speakers. The breakup is coming both from the power tubes in the Single AND the G12T 75s.

IF you'd rather respeaker the marshall cab instead of buying a Mesa cab, you can always add some interior bracing to the marshall. (From the baffle to the back panel will help out immensely. You can screw the back panel to the bracing for added tightness) The rigidity of the Mesa cabs give them their air pushing punch and projection.

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[YellowJacket]

I think the above statement is really what's going on. I think you need more wattage, as in a 100 watter.

I used a rectoverb for some old shool metal a couple years ago. The amp sounded great, until I got up on the volume. At halfway up, the sound went away. Too flubby and un-defined. My heavy palm mutes turned to mush.

For me, the answer was a 100 Watt amp. I picked up a new Multiwatt Dual Rect. While it's not that much louder than a 50, it is louder. Main thing is that at the volume I ran the Rectoverb at, the Dual stays tight with great definition.

It is a combination of the lower efficiency speakers and the 50watt amp that are eating up his headroom. A Dual Rectifier with a Marshall 1960a cab will be as loud as a Single Recto with a Stiletto cab. Additionally, if he scoops out the mids, he'll disappear in the mix no matter what he's running.

I think he might like the sheer aggression of a Triple Recto though.

Good to know man thanks!
Looks like it may be the best to look into a dual or triple Rectifier, rather than a new cab.

Cheers!

Well ya. The least expensive approach would be to flip the Single and get a used Dual or Triple. Then you can brace your 4 x 12 and swap the speaker when you have money.

 

[H3ADLY]

Thankyou so much for all the replies!
The G12k 100s sound promising and will definatley look into them.

Can you give me any insight into bracing the cab? I would love to be able to modify the cab and really make it 'my own'.

Cheers guys.

 

[Nomad100]

It is a combination of the lower efficiency speakers and the 50watt amp that are eating up his headroom. A Dual Rectifier with a Marshall 1960a cab will be as loud as a Single Recto with a Stiletto cab. Additionally, if he scoops out the mids, he'll disappear in the mix no matter what he's running.

I think he might like the sheer aggression of a Triple Recto though.

Agreed that the amp and speakers are working against him. He didn't mention what speakers, but I agree that they are most likely the standard 75 watt Celestions in his 1960A cab.
Still, the added 50 watts of a 100 watt amp can overcome any speaker with a low db rating. Also, even at lower volumes, they have a tighter/bigger sound.

Not knocking his single recto, but when playing metal in a band situation.... meaning loud, a Dual (or Triple) rectifier would be the better choice.

 

[YellowJacket]

http://millsacoustics.com/insideview.jpg

That's the sort of bracing I'd use. I have a 2 x 12 with something like that and it definitely cuts mud and makes for a tighter and more focused sound. In this instance, the large ported baffle (bracing) breaks up standing waves and enhances clarity.

So ya, you want to brace from the speaker baffle to the back panel which will increase the rigidity of the cab. You can also seal the interior and put a gasket around where the backpanel fits in the cab. This will also enhance thump and projection.

Agreed that the amp and speakers are working against him. He didn't mention what speakers, but I agree that they are most likely the standard 75 watt Celestions in his 1960A cab.
Still, the added 50 watts of a 100 watt amp can overcome any speaker with a low db rating. Also, even at lower volumes, they have a tighter/bigger sound.

Not knocking his single recto, but when playing metal in a band situation.... meaning loud, a Dual (or Triple) rectifier would be the better choice.

Triple is definitely best for Metal. I was just commenting on how G12T 75s have a lot of breakup at loud volumes.

 

[Nomad100]

Triple is definitely best for Metal. I was just commenting on how G12T 75s have a lot of breakup at loud volumes.

They do breakup at loud volumes, but I don't think he's running into this situation. He's using a 50 watt head into a a 4-12 cab loaded with these, thus making it a 300 watt cab.

He would need more power to be getting speaker distortion.

 

[VanWreckto]

My Single Rec's output volume is always at halfway and I boost the modern mode with a TS type pedal too.
Make sure your gain isn't past half when boosting it. That will result in lost clarity if it's too high. I also have my bass set between half and 3/4's for high volume playing. That's also important.
I play the amp though a Mesa Stiletto V30 4x12 and a 1/3 open back Randall 2x12 with V30's. Both 8 ohms.
The amp is punishingly tight and brutal.
I never liked Mesa's played through Marshall cabs either.

 

[YellowJacket]

Triple is definitely best for Metal. I was just commenting on how G12T 75s have a lot of breakup at loud volumes.

They do breakup at loud volumes, but I don't think he's running into this situation. He's using a 50 watt head into a a 4-12 cab loaded with these, thus making it a 300 watt cab.

He would need more power to be getting speaker distortion.

This topic is proof that there is more than one way to skin a cat. The G12T 75s have a looser cone and provide more speaker 'crunch' than v30s do. They really thicken the sound and work well for rock, especially with mid heavy amps. When playing Metal, I think one wants a more hi-fi sounding speaker. Really, the preamp does most of the work. Is his power section distorting? Yes. With Rectos set to modern, the onset of power clip starts with the Master up about halfway. This isn't the ONLY problem though. I'm sure there are several.
The inherently mid scooped character of a G12T 75 makes it an incredibly poor choice for the inherently mid scooped character of a Recto. You end up with all highs and lows but no mids. The 97db / watt / metre efficiency also soaks up power compared to v30s, which are a high efficiency and mid focused speaker. With G12T 75s, the amp just doesn't cut well and gets lost in the mix.

Re-EQing the amp will help. Less bass, and more mids. Also, turning down the gain. The mids will 'add' gain, tightness, and focus already. Boosting will further accentuate this effect. More mids cut more with less power. Changing the speakers / cab will help and getting a more powerful head will help. It is really a question of the funds this guy has to invest. Funny how nobody asked him that!

Keep in mind that the volume difference between a single and a dual is only about 3db or so, assuming the same cab / speakers. It will be similarly effective to replace the single with a dual OR to replace the 1960a 4 x 12 with a Stiletto 4 x 12.

My Single Rec's output volume is always at halfway and I boost the modern mode with a TS type pedal too.
Make sure your gain isn't past half when boosting it. That will result in lost clarity if it's too high. I also have my bass set between half and 3/4's for high volume playing. That's also important.
I play the amp though a Mesa Stiletto V30 4x12 and a 1/3 open back Randall 2x12 with V30's. Both 8 ohms.
The amp is punishingly tight and brutal.
I never liked Mesa's played through Marshall cabs either.

Exactly. Gotta check the whole setup!

 

[UnderJollyRoger]

With Rectos set to modern, the onset of power clip starts with the Master up about halfway.

Well, it is also depending on the channel volume, isn't it ?

 

[YellowJacket]

With Rectos set to modern, the onset of power clip starts with the Master up about halfway.

Well, it is also depending on the channel volume, isn't it ?

Haha, ya! With a Single or 2 channel Dual there is only a channel volume and a 'loop master'. If you don't have the loop master engaged, then there isn't one overall master volume and the channel volumes. I always overlook the 3 channel heads because mine is a 2 channel! 8)