Simul IIC++ VS. Coliseum C+

[Elpelotero]

I've been back home as of late with time on my hands to compare my two IIC+'s.

The Coliseum has an incredible amount of tightness and punch to it when playing fast rhythms, but lacks some of the warmth of the Simul. The Simul's warmth is better for leads, but lacks the tightness of the Coliseum. It's a very noticeable difference. I honestly can't decide on which I like more. I'm trying to see if I can get the Simul to tighten up, but can't seem to get it there. Mind you, this is even with the 105 transformer. The Coliseum transformer is massive compared to the 105, which is what makes me believe that's where the difference lies.

After all this though, I can't help but feel as though Hetfield's long head Crunch Berries is most likely a Coliseum as well...? It is just so tight, and it sounds tight like the albums. What are your thoughts? Has anyone ever seen the back of CrunchBerries? It could very well be a Simul Coliseum.

 

[sotosprince]

I've been back home as of late with time on my hands to compare my two IIC+'s.

The Coliseum has an incredible amount of tightness and punch to it when playing fast rhythms, but lacks some of the warmth of the Simul. The Simul's warmth is better for leads, but lacks the tightness of the Coliseum. It's a very noticeable difference. I honestly can't decide on which I like more. I'm trying to see if I can get the Simul to tighten up, but can't seem to get it there. Mind you, this is even with the 105 transformer. The Coliseum transformer is massive compared to the 105, which is what makes me believe that's where the difference lies.

After all this though, I can't help but feel as though Hetfield's long head Crunch Berries is most likely a Coliseum as well...? It is just so tight, and it sounds tight like the albums. What are your thoughts? Has anyone ever seen the back of CrunchBerries? It could very well be a Simul Coliseum.

First of all, I think it's a common mistake we all do when we compare our mark tones to the studio quality - multi tracked ones. IMO if you want to compare your tone to that of hetfield's mark IIC+, you should find good examples of live shows or even better some soundboard recordings. I 've come across some really interesting utube vids featuring the mark IIC+. Secondly, as far as the "tightness" of ur mark IIC+ simul, I cannot stress enough how important it is that you use an external eq or something like my rocktron pro q. It's night and day difference. Either way u can't go wrong, as James himself used not just one but even 2 in some cases - and justice for all -. Here are some clips for u featuring the mighty crunchberries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whWvUGo0W5A&list=PLVTCRShPryTiFsdB53j0Uf-0JerndlOlT&index=71
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtpxYY4e8LI&list=PLVTCRShPryTiFsdB53j0Uf-0JerndlOlT&index=72
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMH-6uCrdSs&list=PLVTCRShPryTiFsdB53j0Uf-0JerndlOlT&index=74

To me this is the pure mark IIC+ metallica tone...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM2I4eEtmZI&list=PLVTCRShPryThzcc4hr7OajyjqHA1NzIkI&index=27
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmZdxhL0pKk

 

[Silverwulf]

I think there's a higher probability that it's a standard Simul with a 105 PT, considering circumstances. Not that it can't be a Coli, but I think the odds of it being so are less. I can type more later. Other random thoughts for now...

Different eras of Metallica are different IIC+'s. We assume that most of Master was "Crunchberries" (though another IIC+ was present and Flemming has said they used whatever sounded better on a given day), but we know for certain that most of Justice was NOT Crunchberries. More of that album was recorded with one of Kirk's IIC+ heads, and a good chunk of that was slaved into the Strategy 400.

By the Black Album, we know that James had Crunchberries as the primary amp in his recording rack, but also present was an ADA MP-1 (and MQ-1) which we know had some input, and the power of the rack was the Strategy 400. So, it's conceivable that some of the Black Album rhythm tracks could have been Crunchberries -> Strategy 400 as well. By the time you get to Load, it's a mix of things, including the Triaxis and more. So, it's really a wash by that point.

Live, the Master tour seems to be the only one where the IIC+ was used straight in. By the time Justice, the Black Album and more came in...the live signal went into the Strategy 400. All of that leads me to this...

1. Not all old Metallica "Mark" tone was "Crunchberries".
2. Circumstances and timing say it's a higher probability "Crunchberries" wasn't a Coli.
3. Justice was recorded more with Kirk's IIC+ and a Strategy 400.
4. The Black Album also had an MP-1 with "Crunchberries", and the Strategy 400 may have been used.
5. Live, James has used the Strategy 400 more than the power section of the head itself.

So, yeah. Obviously external EQs were used and all that jazz, but I wanted to focus exclusively on the heads. The EQs, cabs, and all that jazz is a whole other rabbit hole to jump down. Tired of typing for now, haha, but I also speculate the IIC++ mod happened after Master, so there's that as well.

When comparing the IIC++ and Coli, remember to turn down the gain on the IIC++. If you keep the gain as high as you run the Coli, it won't sound as tight because the ++ has some extra hair on the notes. Also, I feel like the range of the graphic EQ on the ++ is a little different as well, so you may need to adjust it some.

Something else to keep in mind - volume. At lower to mid volumes, the Coli may appear tighter, but that's because you need to get the volume up. The extra will keep the Coli from sounding as saturated until cranked. You'll notice the same comparing the 100 PT to the 105 PT. It's a feel and perception.

 

[Elpelotero]

I'll try to check the gain on the ++ you mentioned. All of your other points are very valid as well and something I've thought about, plus there's the JCM800 thing. As for the Coli volume, I've had it up to 8, 9 with Limit off, full power. I did speak briefly to Mike B about it and he mentioned aside from the larger tranny, the speed with which the preamp/poweramp converts signals is faster than the other C+'s out there. I wish some of you guys could hear it.

 

[Silverwulf]

It's interesting how our ears can deceive us. When I first plugged into my ++, it didn't seem to have much more gain than my standard IIC+'s. Took a while for me to adjust and feel how the notes saturate a little earlier. Because of that, my standard +'s seemed "tighter" because they were more stripped down in gain. After backing off the gain some (but keeping Volume 1 high), it compensated and nailed it. After playing with it more, I definitely hear Black Album Metallica in the ++, though I think the standard does Master of Puppets better.

The JCM 800 in the mix has been interesting. For someone that kept as detailed of notes as Flemming, it's funny there's no mention of the Marshall in any of the Master notes, nor can one be found in any of the studio pics from the era. You can see a JCM 800 in the Justice studio pics, but the notes are so detailed for it, it's doubtful it was used much. Would be nice to have more definitive info there, but I think we've got all that we're going to get.

It looks like James and Kirk have used a variety of IIC+'s live. During the Black Album tour, you can even see what appears to be some IIC -> IIC+ upgrade heads, presumably as they bought up more for the tour.

I should slave the IIC+ heads into my Strategy 400 and give it a go.

 

[Elpelotero]

It's interesting how our ears can deceive us. When I first plugged into my ++, it didn't seem to have much more gain than my standard IIC+'s. Took a while for me to adjust and feel how the notes saturate a little earlier. Because of that, my standard +'s seemed "tighter" because they were more stripped down in gain. After backing off the gain some (but keeping Volume 1 high), it compensated and nailed it. After playing with it more, I definitely hear Black Album Metallica in the ++, though I think the standard does Master of Puppets better.

The JCM 800 in the mix has been interesting. For someone that kept as detailed of notes as Flemming, it's funny there's no mention of the Marshall in any of the Master notes, nor can one be found in any of the studio pics from the era. You can see a JCM 800 in the Justice studio pics, but the notes are so detailed for it, it's doubtful it was used much. Would be nice to have more definitive info there, but I think we've got all that we're going to get.

It looks like James and Kirk have used a variety of IIC+'s live. During the Black Album tour, you can even see what appears to be some IIC -> IIC+ upgrade heads, presumably as they bought up more for the tour.

I should slave the IIC+ heads into my Strategy 400 and give it a go.

Great explanation on the ++ Gain, thank you. Let us know how the 400 test goes

 

[Boogiebabies]

My Simul sure seems to do it for me with only an isolation cabinet and bone stock circuitry.

Kool Aid boys, Kool Aid.

 

[Silverwulf]

I agree...to an extent. My stock Simul does the job as well. Kool Aid is in the ear of the beholder. Some folks will preach tubes make no difference, the transformers have no significance to the tone, etc. There's an argument that on tape you couldn't tell a IIC+ from a III, and I think there's some validity there as well (as argued by my III that can hang with my IIC+'s).

But, there's always differences to the player, how it feels, and how it sounds in a room. It's those finer points we love to hash as enthusiasts. In a band mix? No one could tell a difference in my III and my IIC+'s, let alone my IIC+ models.

 

[gts]

But, there's always differences to the player, how it feels.........
In a band mix? No one could tell a difference in my III and my IIC+'s, let alone my IIC+ models.

Maybe No one could tell the difference but your first line (quoted above) states what will always be a HUGE factor in playing though a C+.
The lead channel tone is undeniable but the responsiveness, "the feel" of a C+ is WAY different than a III (and or any other Mark Series).
A C+ is touch sensitive in ways no other Mark Series amp has (or imho ever will have)!

 

[Silverwulf]

But, there's always differences to the player, how it feels.........
In a band mix? No one could tell a difference in my III and my IIC+'s, let alone my IIC+ models.

Maybe No one could tell the difference but your first line (quoted above) states what will always be a HUGE factor in playing though a C+.
The lead channel tone is undeniable but the responsiveness, "the feel" of a C+ is WAY different than a III (and or any other Mark Series).
A C+ is touch sensitive in ways no other Mark Series amp has (or imho ever will have)!

Exactly. If there was no difference, I'd just sell off the +'s and keep the III.

 

[Dror520]

Well apparently according to Mesa, Hetfield used a IIC+ Coliseum: https://www.facebook.com/MesaBoogie/posts/10153929582297685?comment_id=10153929727717685

 

[IronSean]

Well apparently according to Mesa, Hetfield used a IIC+ Coliseum: https://www.facebook.com/MesaBoogie/posts/10153929582297685?comment_id=10153929727717685

And even if he didn't, they used the Strategy 400 power amps a lot, which are pretty close to a stereo Coliseum power amp anyway.