Recording a Recto......

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ibanez4life SZ!

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Hey guys!

I finally got my little in-home recording setup up and running....

Shure Sm-57 ----> Mackie 400F Firewire interface ------> Apple Macbook (with LaCie external harddrive)

Now.....it is a pretty **** expensive setup....the recording part of it even, interface and mic.....

My problem: I can't seem to get a good recorded sound of my recto......any tips? How do you guys place your mics on the cab? Settings for a good recorded tone?

I expect a lot from the interface and mic, but so far, it is letting me down :(

All help is great appreciated!
 
I tend to like micing with a 57 from about a foot away, off to the side, but pointed at the opposite side of the cone.
.......... U
........ /...\
......./.......\
...../...........\



......./
...../
.../
./

Give that a try
 
Grandor said:
I tend to like micing with a 57 from about a foot away, off to the side, but pointed at the opposite side of the cone.
.......... U
........ /...\
......./.......\
...../...........\



......./
...../
.../
./

Give that a try

Do you hold this theory with the Standard rectos with reverse mounted speakers? What cabs have you had expirience with miking this way? I know a guy who mics this way but he has a Mark IIb with an evm that is definatly dominant in the high-mid arena. He does this scenario live. Do you recomend this live? Most shows that I go to have there cabs miced straight on usually toward the midle to the outside of the cone. I usually mic mine like this(below) but Im up for improvements!!

.......... U
........ /...\
......./.......\
...../...........\
.......|
.......|
.......|

:)
 
ibanez4life SZ! said:
Hey guys!

I finally got my little in-home recording setup up and running....

Shure Sm-57 ----> Mackie 400F Firewire interface ------> Apple Macbook (with LaCie external harddrive)

Now.....it is a pretty **** expensive setup....the recording part of it even, interface and mic.....

My problem: I can't seem to get a good recorded sound of my recto......any tips? How do you guys place your mics on the cab? Settings for a good recorded tone?

I expect a lot from the interface and mic, but so far, it is letting me down :(

All help is great appreciated!

What about it dont you like? Is it dominant in the mids? One thing that I have expirienced with recording is that allot of the mids that you need to put in live in order to be able to hear yourself, you can dip out a little when recording to smooth out the tone you are getting. The 57 is a very mid-range oriented mic as well which will be more sensitive in this region. Try backing off your mids and highs a little on the amp and maybe try Grandors suggestion. Im thinking of doing this myself! :wink:
 
the interface and mic are not going to magically make it sound good, but the 57 is pretty standard for micing high gain guitar cabs and the m audio stuff always have good enough pres if not good or pretty **** good depending on the range



first make sure you know the location of one of the speakers on the amp, you can shine a flash light through the grill or remove it and then guesstimate... when you find one of the speakers, mark where the center of the cone is (the dust cap) with a little piece of masking tape on the grill.

now start by taking the 57 and putting it about 2 to 6 inches away but pointing directly at the tape (by the way it should be a small piece of tape or you can make a little box around the center, otherwise you might block out some of the sound if you are recording at low low volumes). this is on axis center of cone, this sound will probably be alot of high end, very detailed sounding but honestly pretty harsh. next try swinging the mix on the horizontal axis about 45 degrees either left or right, this will give a warmer tone, less detail, but more body, this is called off axis on center of cone. now put the mic back to its original positon, and then move it horizontally between the center of the cone and edge of the cone, youll notice it gets more bass and body towards the edge, anywhere you put it in this set up is referred to as on axis off center of cone. and then finally, you can do off axis off center of cone, which is combining angling the mic across the horizontal plane by 45 degrees, and then sliding it from center to edge of cone.

i personally prefer the on axis off center micing position half way between the center and edge, but then i normally put up two mics or 3 mics close on the cab (all different types) and a room mic preferably tube or ribbon.

anyway some stuff to consider.

1. the edge of the speaker reproduces more bass, the center more high end.
2. adding a room reverb, not hall, but small medium or large ROOM reverb or room simulation as its sometimes called to a closed mic recording can give you a closer sound to how you hear it in the room (do you hold your head 3 inches away from the grill while blasting a dual rectifier?)
3. experiment! everyone knows what a 57 close to the cab looks like, we see it onstage all the time and we see it in the studio all the time, the biggest secret is in the studio its mostly there as a back up, we all know what it sounds like so its there just in case! try putting the mic 3 feet back, or by your head in your favorite playing position, try mounting it to a drum clip and clipping that to side of your cabinet (gives you some menacing low end as it vibrates sympathically with the cab), try taking the grill off and sitcking the mic inside the speaker, if you can afford it buy another mic and stick that 20 feet across the room etc.
4. be aware of your enemies! noisy pickups, furniture or rooms that vibrate along with your amp ( i once knew a room that would literally hum along with you and shake itself apart when you hit a D flat power chord) watch out for phase issues when using two mics (i assume youll be wanting to get the best out of your 57 so you wont be buying a second one soon)
5. dont fret about not getting a good sound (no pun intended), you have a top of the line amplifier, an industry standard mic, the best mic pres for the price, and the industry standard computer system. itll sound good eventually, no one is good over night, eddie kramer and mutt lange once swept floors in some crappy studio and probably couldnt make led zeppelin sound good going to tape if they tried!

anyway hope that helps, ill check back on this thread to see if you need more help, im not blowing my own horn but im an audio engineer professionally , its my job so I have to know stuff or I dont get paid and I dont eat!
 
Again, thank you very much! All very helpful posts!

I think one of my biggest problems is that I'm expecting it to sound like it does when I play it in my room. The room reverb is a huge part of the sound, and micing it up close doesn't take all that into account.....

I tried backing the mic off a bit and the different positions mentioned, and it did help a bit. Next, I'll have to try re-eqing with the new positions.

My biggest problem is the tone on Channel 3 Modern....I get great tones on clean and channel 2 vintage, but channel 3 just lacks the authority.....

From what I hear, re-EQing is essential with most amps when recording to get the best out of it.....opinions on this?
 
ibanez4life SZ! said:
Again, thank you very much! All very helpful posts!

I think one of my biggest problems is that I'm expecting it to sound like it does when I play it in my room. The room reverb is a huge part of the sound, and micing it up close doesn't take all that into account.....

I tried backing the mic off a bit and the different positions mentioned, and it did help a bit. Next, I'll have to try re-eqing with the new positions.

My biggest problem is the tone on Channel 3 Modern....I get great tones on clean and channel 2 vintage, but channel 3 just lacks the authority.....

From what I hear, re-EQing is essential with most amps when recording to get the best out of it.....opinions on this?

i mean you always have to eq to fit the sound into the mix, but normally on its own, i would say no, i mostly eq the guitars for the following reasons
1.let the bass be more present
2. give the vocals more room
3. remove sub harmonic content that muddies up the mix

whats funny is for awhile i had my channel 3 modern set up almost exactly like yours and i never found it to lack authority when recording..

one suggestion, if that sucker aint turned up loud, then TURN IT UP! the speakers moving air will play a big part in the tone, and i find the modern mode to soudn the weakest at low volumes
 
go to google and type "slipperman guitar tutorial" or something like that i believe. try searching slipperman on this forum also. it's a long, detailed-- and funny--tutorial on recording high gain amps. it gets very technical at some points tho, and i dont know if you have the gear he mentions.


ooo, also, try backing off the gain a little bit when you re-eq. im guilty of overgaining and many others are too.
 
diamondschwin said:
the interface and mic are not going to magically make it sound good, but the 57 is pretty standard for micing high gain guitar cabs and the m audio stuff always have good enough pres if not good or pretty **** good depending on the range



first make sure you know the location of one of the speakers on the amp, you can shine a flash light through the grill or remove it and then guesstimate... when you find one of the speakers, mark where the center of the cone is (the dust cap) with a little piece of masking tape on the grill.

now start by taking the 57 and putting it about 2 to 6 inches away but pointing directly at the tape (by the way it should be a small piece of tape or you can make a little box around the center, otherwise you might block out some of the sound if you are recording at low low volumes). this is on axis center of cone, this sound will probably be alot of high end, very detailed sounding but honestly pretty harsh. next try swinging the mix on the horizontal axis about 45 degrees either left or right, this will give a warmer tone, less detail, but more body, this is called off axis on center of cone. now put the mic back to its original positon, and then move it horizontally between the center of the cone and edge of the cone, youll notice it gets more bass and body towards the edge, anywhere you put it in this set up is referred to as on axis off center of cone. and then finally, you can do off axis off center of cone, which is combining angling the mic across the horizontal plane by 45 degrees, and then sliding it from center to edge of cone.

i personally prefer the on axis off center micing position half way between the center and edge, but then i normally put up two mics or 3 mics close on the cab (all different types) and a room mic preferably tube or ribbon.

anyway some stuff to consider.

1. the edge of the speaker reproduces more bass, the center more high end.
2. adding a room reverb, not hall, but small medium or large ROOM reverb or room simulation as its sometimes called to a closed mic recording can give you a closer sound to how you hear it in the room (do you hold your head 3 inches away from the grill while blasting a dual rectifier?)
3. experiment! everyone knows what a 57 close to the cab looks like, we see it onstage all the time and we see it in the studio all the time, the biggest secret is in the studio its mostly there as a back up, we all know what it sounds like so its there just in case! try putting the mic 3 feet back, or by your head in your favorite playing position, try mounting it to a drum clip and clipping that to side of your cabinet (gives you some menacing low end as it vibrates sympathically with the cab), try taking the grill off and sitcking the mic inside the speaker, if you can afford it buy another mic and stick that 20 feet across the room etc.
4. be aware of your enemies! noisy pickups, furniture or rooms that vibrate along with your amp ( i once knew a room that would literally hum along with you and shake itself apart when you hit a D flat power chord) watch out for phase issues when using two mics (i assume youll be wanting to get the best out of your 57 so you wont be buying a second one soon)
5. dont fret about not getting a good sound (no pun intended), you have a top of the line amplifier, an industry standard mic, the best mic pres for the price, and the industry standard computer system. itll sound good eventually, no one is good over night, eddie kramer and mutt lange once swept floors in some crappy studio and probably couldnt make led zeppelin sound good going to tape if they tried!

anyway hope that helps, ill check back on this thread to see if you need more help, im not blowing my own horn but im an audio engineer professionally , its my job so I have to know stuff or I dont get paid and I dont eat!

Thanks for the post man! I can always apreciate good worthwhile expirience from someone who knows what they are talking about to maybe save me a little bit of frustration and time trying to do the same thing! :D
 
ibanez4life SZ! said:
Again, thank you very much! All very helpful posts!

I think one of my biggest problems is that I'm expecting it to sound like it does when I play it in my room. The room reverb is a huge part of the sound, and micing it up close doesn't take all that into account.....

I tried backing the mic off a bit and the different positions mentioned, and it did help a bit. Next, I'll have to try re-eqing with the new positions.

My biggest problem is the tone on Channel 3 Modern....I get great tones on clean and channel 2 vintage, but channel 3 just lacks the authority.....

From what I hear, re-EQing is essential with most amps when recording to get the best out of it.....opinions on this?

I got crazy Idea............ I just thought of this and am wondering how it will sound-- Try micing your amp about a foot to a foot and a half from the speaker cone and then take another mic(for ambience) and place it right next to the other one facing the opposite direction toward the wall or whatever to catch the bottom end off the wall and room air movement. Im not sure if you have another mic @ your disposal but it might be worth the try?? Diamondschwin any input on that?? Anyone else? Like this:

...................O
................./....\
.............../........\
............./...|........\
.........../.....|....../..\
...........\.....|..../../
.............\...|../../
...............\_/../
.............\___/
............\_____/
...............(*)
................||..||
................||..||
................||..||
................||..||
....................(*)
.............../ _____ \
................./ ___ \
.................../ _ \
..................../ \
......................|
 
Here is THE easiest less hassle way to mic ANY amp. I was taught this by a few big name pals of mine.....and it works!

Use a 57...point it DIRECTLY at the center of the cone RIGHT up against the grill and then angle it where the cone meets the dome in the center. about a forty degree angle. You also do kick drums in this manner. Trust me...it works. Then pan one left and one right for your basic rhythm track. It lays a nice bed.

for mic choice......you can also use an Audix OM2....it adds a REALLY sweet compressed PUNCH to your sound!! it brings out the balls
mc-G

if you wanna hear an example....go to www.myspace.com/paradigum

we have a song clip up.....it was done with a dual rec with an SG on one side and the same dual rec with a 1980 Les Paul Customn SIiverburst on the other!
 
I got crazy Idea............ I just thought of this and am wondering how it will sound-- Try micing your amp about a foot to a foot and a half from the speaker cone and then take another mic(for ambience) and place it right next to the other one facing the opposite direction toward the wall or whatever to catch the bottom end off the wall and room air movement. Im not sure if you have another mic @ your disposal but it might be worth the try?? Diamondschwin any input on that?? Anyone else? Like this:

It seems the above would cause a lot of (unpredictable) phase cancellation problems.

Always use MUCH less gain than you think you need, then double/quadruple the tracks to thicken it up.
That's what I used to do with my POS ampeg, and it made a significant difference with it, though not near to what I might consider "good".

Haven't had many opportunity to experiment with my single recto yet....
 
MesaMc-G said:
Here is THE easiest less hassle way to mic ANY amp. I was taught this by a few big name pals of mine.....and it works!

Use a 57...point it DIRECTLY at the center of the cone RIGHT up against the grill and then angle it where the cone meets the dome in the center. about a forty degree angle. You also do kick drums in this manner. Trust me...it works. Then pan one left and one right for your basic rhythm track. It lays a nice bed.

for mic choice......you can also use an Audix OM2....it adds a REALLY sweet compressed PUNCH to your sound!! it brings out the balls
mc-G

if you wanna hear an example....go to www.myspace.com/paradigum

Thanks man--I'll give that a shot tomorrow--

we have a song clip up.....it was done with a dual rec with an SG on one side and the same dual rec with a 1980 Les Paul Customn SIiverburst on the other!
 
make sure you set the level's up correctly. A lot of people tend to record too hot of a signal. They try to set the levels/gain so they are right at 0DB's w/o clipping. but this doesnt give you any headroom, and you are probably adding a lot of noise to the recording. I've heard quite a few very knowledgeable people on recording say -18db is the target. If your gear can't let you set that, then try to get the average sounds around
-18db and and peak that you hit be no higher than -9db.

I'm in the same boat as you Ibanez trying to get started in recording, and that is some of the stuff I have been reading.
 
Micah said:
Do you hold this theory with the Standard rectos with reverse mounted speakers? What cabs have you had expirience with miking this way? I know a guy who mics this way but he has a Mark IIb with an evm that is definatly dominant in the high-mid arena. He does this scenario live. Do you recomend this live? Most shows that I go to have there cabs miced straight on usually toward the midle to the outside of the cone. I usually mic mine like this(below) but Im up for improvements!!

.......... U
........ /...\
......./.......\
...../...........\
.......|
.......|
.......|

:)

This is how I mike my 1960vintage cab (vintage 30's). I don't have a recto cab.
For Live stuff I'm always changing my micing setup, depending on how I'm dialed up at that point in time and how many channels their willing to give me on the desk to play with.
 
you'll actually get more noise in the recording if you record that quiet (-18 to -9db). because you'll end up having to either normalize the track or bring the level up quite a bit when you do your final mix, and all the 'operating level' noise of the amp as well as your recording equipment will be brought up with it. if you're referring to noise from the amp, as in feedback at loud volumes, that's a different problem with another solution. i think if you set your target at around -3 dB when you record, that will give you a little bit of headroom to work with. And since distortion by nature compresses your sound, you won't need to allow for a huge dynamic range (ie, need tons of headroom). When you record clean guitar, you might need more headroom depending on the song as this signal will be naturally more dynamic. Your best bet is to play as loud as you are going to play when you record, or just play the song first without recording and watch the peaks, then adjust until the loudest part reaches near to 0 dB without clipping. sorry to sound like a know-it-all, but i am a certified audio engineer and thought i could shed some light on the issue. cheers, -DM
 

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