problem with my rack setup's sound

[LightSeeker]

Hi everyone, I'm new and I have a problem

I have a Mesa Boogie Studio preamp wired to a Mesa 50/50 power amp and into a vintage Jensen speaker. The cleans are great, one of the best I've ever heard.
But the problem is the distortion. I thought that it would produce a smooth kind of overdrive or distortion, but wheen i plug the studio from the normal output it sounds really harsh and not smooth at all. It sounds just like my Vox AD60, maybe a tad better. When plugged through the recording ooutput it sounds better (still not there though), but loses significantly in volume and clarity and is processed, because the rec output emulates a Mesa power amp.
The sad thing is that my ZOOM G2 unit on the mesa setting when plugged into the clean channel of the Studio gives a better smoother (but thinner) distortion then the real overdrive channel of the preamp.
I am really dissapointed. Here aare the clips:

all was done in one take, it's very sloppy and the parts are separated ba an annoying noise. The sequence is as follows: 1. clean (slightly distorted) sound from the nomral output of the preamp into the power amps, 2. clean (slightly distorted) from the recording output, 3. Overdrive channel from the normal output and 4. overdrive from the recording output.


Test of the rig
lo-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5582011&q=lo
hi-fi URL: http://www.soundclick.com/util/getplayer.m3u?id=5582011&q=hi

I went to an amp tech some days agoand he tried it out and said he loved the sound of it. "It's the thing that cuts through the live band. That's how Mesa is supposed to sound like. it's supposed to have a nasty sound. If you wanted a smooth distortion you should've picked up a marshall, which sounds fine by itslef, but gets lost completely with a live band," is what he said to me.
Fully functional or not, I still dont like that kind of distortion. It just sounds fizzy and harsh to me, and if I put the preamp through the recording output the cleans get muddy and even then the overdrive isn't as good as I wanted it to be.

I always thought that Mesa is known for their smooth santana like tones (except the rectos of course) and the sound coming from my preamp is definetely NOT that kind of sound.
"If you want to get that kind of a sound get a Triaxis," he said to me.

What am I suppose to do? I am seriosusly considering selling the Studio. Yeah the cleans are good, but it's the distortion that I want to be good as well. I am kind of letdown..

 

[dgzieg]

Hi, I had my Triaxis for more than two years before I started getting it to sound like I thought it should, and I doubt it would have happened without the advice of Timbre Wolf. I read all his posts regarding the Triaxis and tube choices and started hunting the tubes whose descriptions matched what I thought I was looking for. I spent a good chunk of change but I now get a wide variety of good crunch tones, singing sustains and great cleans. I'd have to get list of current tubes in the Triaxis at home, my choices might not be your choices regardless, plus I'm mostly playing single coils. Prior to this, I had expected tubes to make small changes in tone and distortion, turns out they can make huge! differences, something I would not have known without Timbre Wolf's extensive experimentation with tubes. Thanks again, TW!

 

[venaleschatology]

You're right, it should sound better than that, keeping in mind that it isnt an altogether bad tone. But i know what its like have all the great tones except the one you want.

Changing the tubes is good advice, but like dgzieg said it might cost a little. Its probably a good idea to persevere with the settings first. I dont know how long you've had it but because boogies have so much wrapped up in their tone controls it can take alot of experimentation to get it the way you like it. Also good to remember that the tone controls are very interactive, esp the treble so a little tweek on one can change the way the others with sound.

But if you've had it a while and im telling you stuff you already know, tube exploration might be a good idea, not forgetting the poweramps, driver and power tubes. Easy to forget the driver tubes deep in the guts of the 50/50. Some sort of eq is prob worth trying out too, but you should be able to get santana tone from that amp without any more dodads. Still at the end of the day eq ing fixes most tone problems. I am so sick of techs saying "its supposed to sound that way". Its code for "i dont know" or "i dont care". Besides marshalls are hardly known for their smooth leads, modern marshalls anyway.

Ive got a recto pre and like you said they're not exactly meant for santana smooth but its shits all over most amps for most tones, esp lead tones. Boogies take time on the tone controls and nice new tubes suited to the tone you want and they're magic.

 

[LightSeeker]

I've had it for more than half ya year, but untill a week ago I ran it through my Vox Ad60 efects return input, because i din't hav e the 50/50 yet. I always ran it throuh the rec output, because I just couldn't stand the normal output sound. I thought that that was because of the Vox's fake power amp stage, but now I can see that this is the way it really sounds like. I'm having a hard time getting myself to play guitar, because everytime I do, I just get angry, hen I hear what's coming out. (and the clips that I posted don't really capture the sound. It sounds much smoother than it actually is)

 

[LightSeeker]

It's definately the preamp, as it sounded harsh through different setups till now. It's just not to my liking.

Anyway, I'm thinking of selling this preamp, because it's just to dissapointing at the moment, but I would like to know some suggestions as to what to buy instead. Or should I just sell the whole thing including the power amp and buy a head or a combo instead?

 

[CoG]

totally off the top of my head after listening to your hifi clip, I can actually hear your un-amped guitar towards the end. What kind of volumes are you playing at?

This may be something you've tried already, and I hate to join the 'crank it till it sounds good' crew, but I think if you tried it louder through a more appropriate speaker you might be a lot happier. I don't think any tube power stage really sounds good at 2.

 

[LightSeeker]

I know what you are saying, but I already cranked it up through a 4x12 cabinet at my local stzore. Small improvement, but wasn't reall satisfied with it. Sounds worse than my Voxad60. at least to me. Are there any modifications that could be made to it?

Or could I do something with the power amp, to make it quieter (have less output), sos I could push it inot breakup. Even at low power its still too loud to crank in my appartment. COuld I take out some of the power tubes?

 

[Whoopysnorp]

Something is definitely up. I use two Studio Preamps regularly. One belongs to my roommate and I use it in our apartment through the effects return of a Kustom solid-state 1x12 combo at low volumes. The other is mine, and I use it in our rehearsal space with a Simul 395 power amp into a 4x12 at high volumes. I have no problems getting smooth tones out of it. At home I use the recording output and compensate for the lack of treble by boosting it as much as I can with the graphic EQ, and at the rehearsal space I use the main outputs and a more typical EQ curve. I wish I had some recordings Is there any way you can get your hands on a second Studio Preamp to try in your setup so you can at least trace the problem there?

Here is the only recording I have on hand of the Studio Pre/Simul 395 setup for reference. You should be able to get tones like this:

Full recording: http://www.genitalhercules.com/~mcrowe/2007-05-24-tao-showdown-441kmastered.mp3
Just the guitar: http://www.genitalhercules.com/~mcrowe/maxguitar.mp3

 

[LightSeeker]

There may b more to this cranked up thing. I did it today for a couple of seconds and the sound did smooth out, but it wass not long enough to tell how it improved exactly. Maybe it's all my fault (i certainly hope so ) and not the equipment's.

I'll keep you posted

 

[CoG]

I'm having a hard time imagining how low you must be running that 50/50 to keep it at apartment-friendly volumes. I use a 20/20 and I can't really turn it past about 11 o'clock without my entire house vibrating; my 'tone floor' is around 8:30. (This probably has a lot to do with the speakers, too.) I don't think I could actually play my rig at apartment volume, I'd just use the DI from the preamp into my monitors if I had to do that.

Other thing, this may also sound dumb, is if you ARE running it that low it may take a loooong time to warm up, which seems to make a difference with my 20/20. It definitely sounds better after half an hour than it does when I first take it off standby.

 

[LightSeeker]

I'll probably have to get a power attentuator or something. I can't bother my neighbours, they are good people .

 

[CoG]

whoopysnorp had a good idea for practicing... a decent small solid-state combo is pretty cheap, you could run your studio into that at home. It won't be the *same* as a power amp but it'd be more fun than playing into a computer.

 

[LightSeeker]

I already have the Vox AD60VT, which is a very good amp for the price. sounds pretty good. Unfortunately, I'm selling it, but I might reconsider.

 

[dgzieg]

Just a tip on what you should be able to get, I can get the tones I spoke about with the Triaxis output on 2 and the gain controls on a Mesa 20/20 just barely on. I'm frequently playing guitar with the tv on at moderate volume. The tones are also the same if I run the preamp into a solid state poweramp. I'm certainly not driving the 20/20 to the point where it's contributing power tube saturation (although I get to occasionally!!!). Yes, it all sounds better louder (and is more fun) but then your ears shut down and nothing sounds very good. I can't stress enough how much difference the right (for you) set of tubes can make. I'm not aware of anybody that has classified as many types of 12ax7 tubes as Timbre Wolf has, search for his posts on this forum and thegearpage.net I've thought it would be nice to have a lending library of preamp tubes so you could check out the variety without having to buy one (or more) of everything. Maybe we can get Bill Gates to sponsor us.

 

[reo73]

I own a Studio Pre that I run through a 50/50 and to let you know how much I liked it I sold a C+ modded III to keep this set-up. But concerning your amp, it sounds as if you have some lousy preamp tubes in there, I hear the essence of the Studio Pre tone in that clip but everything sounds really flubby and muddy. I would start with a tube change. Also, make sure your bass and mid dials are set no higher than 3 and use the GEQ to dial in bass. By the playing on your clip it sounds as if you are a relatively new player and gear can have a learning curve, it takes time to get the hang of it to dial in the good sounds.

 

[LightSeeker]

You may be rigth about the tubes. They are about 2 and a half years old (the tech said, that they are fine and everything though).
Yeah, I always did pretty heavy on the bass, had it at 5 or 6 o' clock and the mids at 10. I always thought that ... well, I thought wrong I guess. I'll try it out.
Yes, I am a relaitevly new player (have only been playing for two years), but it's also true tat the clip was lall done in one take so I apologize again for sloppy playing

DGZIEG, I'll alos look for timbrewolf's posts regarding choice of tubes. Thanks man.

 

[Whoopysnorp]

For what it's worth I don't necessarily agree that you shouldn't have your mids over 3--I run mine at about 5. Still, though, maybe it would be a good idea to post your settings. The Studio Pre (and all of the Mark series) have a unique design and require settings that seem bizarre at first glance to sound good.

 

[LightSeeker]

I went to my local store today to let it rip again.

My Jensen speaker started 'farting out' (the best I can describe it- the bass got really weird sounding nad flabby). That's why I ran it through an Ibanez 4x12 cab.
On the clean channel the sounds- both clean (which is pretty hard to get, you really have to lower the volume setting on it to get it with humbuckeers) and overdriven were fantastic.
The lead tones were still a little harsh, but nowhere near as harsh when I play it at room volumes. It was quite an imporvement. If I compare it for example with a Hughess and kettner 20th anniversary amp (the only other tube amp, that I've actually played for more than a couple of minutes on loud settings), it was much smoother. The problem is, that I haven't really had time to bug with the settings, and that it was just too loud even on the lo-pwr setting to keep on experimenting, as my ears started ringing. I guess I'll have to look inot some attentuators or something.

 

[Whoopysnorp]

If it sounded good through an Ibanez cab, it'll probably sound spectacular through a good cab. Ibanez aren't known for making good cabs.

 

[LightSeeker]

But I'll probably have to get some sort of a power attentuator, or I'll go freakin' deaf!