Pre tubes or Power Tubes - Which is the bigger difference?

[Skunknugget]

I'm about to do some tube experimentation on my Roadster. Will changing the power tubes make a bigger sound difference than the preamp tubes? I have already been consulted on which particular tubes are good to start with, but should I try the preamp tubes or power tubes first?

 

[madryan]

Preamp tubes will make a much bigger difference.

What sort of sound are you going for? I've always liked a NOS Mullard 12AT7 in V1. Worked great in my dual rec.

 

[Skunknugget]

Well I am trying to make it a bit warmer. I originally bought it because it is versatile, but I can't get rid of that layer of "fuzz" on most of my settings unless I seriously turn down the treble and gain. What kind of difference did your tube in V1 make?

 

[Platypus]

Preamp tubes for sure.

 

[madryan]

Well I am trying to make it a bit warmer. I originally bought it because it is versatile, but I can't get rid of that layer of "fuzz" on most of my settings unless I seriously turn down the treble and gain. What kind of difference did your tube in V1 make?

The 12AT7 has quite a bit less gain. It doesn't hit V2 as hard. I'd definitely give one a shot. I really liked what it did for my JSX too. I know what you mean about the fizzy sound. These days that's a real deal breaker for me. If it's not smooth and tonefull I'm not interested.

Another thing that helps is to use a 5751 which is a bit hotter than a 12AT7 but still lower gain. The Jan-Philips is a killer tube. You can get one here...

http://thetubestore.com/sylvania5751.html

This is the Mullard I used in V1...

http://thetubestore.com/mul12atcv.html

I'd buy one of each and try them in different positions in your pre. Putting the hotter tube in V1 (the 5751) will get you a bit more gain. Or, if you want you can run a nice 12AX7 like a Penta or Tung Sol in V2 instead of a lower gain tube.

The difference in available gain isn't that profound. What changes is the nature of the gain, an you have the ability to use the gain knob's full range, so it's easier to dial it in.

I hope that all makes sense.

Mesa tubes tend to be pretty high gain and to me sound buzzy. I just pulled V1 and V2 in my new Lonestar and put a Tung Sol 12AX7 in V1 and a Penta 9th gen. Chinese in V2 and left the rest of the Mesa tubes in there.

If you do decide to try different power tubes definitely give the TAD 6L6's a shot. Killer tube.

 

[Skunknugget]

This helps a lot! I am definitely going to try those preamp tubes. How do those TAD 6L6's alter your tone?

 

[edward]

Do yourself a favor: when doing tube swap experimentation,

a) Get GOOD tubes from a reputable vendor. You want to hear the differences between types of tubes, and not only the diff between one tube against another.

b) Elicit others' advice to help shape the "direction" of your tonal search. This can help reduce your trial/error, and help "get you there" faster ...which is also cheaper.

FWIW, if you're trying AT7s, I've found NOS RCAs very nice, but just recently discovered that even better are NOS Mullard CV4024s. The Mullards made a real difference in my MKIII Simul and DC5. Experiment with them in the PI and various gain stages to see if they deliver for you. NOS RCA 5751s are also really nice, and smoothed out the grain in my DC's OD channel. Hope this helps

Edward

 

[siggy14]

Most of the JMP-1's distortion is solid state, the tubes are basically there to warm up the tone a little, so yes changing out the tubes will not make much of a difference in the JMP-1.

I can tell difference in tubes, JJ's tend to be darker where mesa's are a little more brighter, you are not gonna hear a drastic tone change, but yes you can tell the difference.

IMHO switching to tubes in the same classification (e.g. 12AX7 --> 12AX7 or E34L --> E34L) but perhaps different brand don't make much of a difference in terms of tone (maybe in longevity or reliability -- Telefunken is a good example).

I just replaced the pair of russian sovtek 12AX7 in my JMP-1 with two Telefunken ECC83's and I couldn't hear much of a difference. I tried 5 funken's in my road king a while back and same result (microphonics might have improved, however).

But if you go from EL34 to E34L or KT77, that's a different story......

That being said, many tube amp gurus will beg to differ with my "no difference" comment above...

 

[Silverwulf]

Probably in the minority here, but I like JJ's in my Recto. The combo of the darker voiced JJ's with the EMG's and V30's I use works out well for the sound I like.

 

[siggy14]

I tend to like the JJ's too, probaly because i like a darker sounding amp as I am not balls out metal but more of a hardrock.

By the way how is that rackmount doing?

Probably in the minority here, but I like JJ's in my Recto. The combo of the darker voiced JJ's with the EMG's and V30's I use works out well for the sound I like.

 

[fishyfishfish]

Look for a NOS AX7 or ECC83 and try it in V1 position of your pre-amp.

 

[inmyhands]

I experimented a lot with different tubes in my F-100 and the combination I fell in love with was a JAN-philips 5751 in the V1 position, JJ/Tesla ECC83 for the rest of the preamp tubes, and TAD 6L6's for the output tubes.

 

[ja22y]

excepts for the LoneStars, most Mesa I've played are voiced for high gain so they will be buzzy, that's just the nature of the circuit. You may find that re-tube high-gain amp with lower gain pre-tube may not give you the result.
You can smooth (not elliminate) the buzz by changing the pre tube. You'll hear a pronounced different when you put in good vintage tube. Production Chinese/Russian tubes are very grainy and dull.
In general (very generalized) British's tubes (Mullard, ...) are warmer and has nice mid.
American's (RCA, Raytheon, GE, ...) are balanced and punchy.
German's (Telefunken, Seimens, ...) are clean and details., not a good match for high-gain amp IMO.
Depends on what you're after really. Tesla (not JJ) is a good cheap option that retains pretty much the gain/tone of the stock Mesa with less buzz.

 

[Silverwulf]

By the way how is that rackmount doing?

Doing great so far! Took a little tweaking to find the sound I wanted, but I'm good to go now. I have a G-Major coming in the mail this week to toss in the rack with it.

 

[siggy14]

I have pretty much a straight up setting with my rec's then just slightly tweak here or there. That rackmount sounded **** good though with all straight up at 12 noon, same with the one I have sitting in my room now.

By the way how is that rackmount doing?

Doing great so far! Took a little tweaking to find the sound I wanted, but I'm good to go now. I have a G-Major coming in the mail this week to toss in the rack with it.

 

[Silverwulf]

I have pretty much a straight up setting with my rec's then just slightly tweak here or there. That rackmount sounded **** good though with all straight up at 12 noon, same with the one I have sitting in my room now.

I'm not too far from there actually. I settled on the Mids and Gain at 12 noon, and the Treble, Presence, and Bass all sitting in the 10:30 to 11:00 range. I did retube the preamp with a set of high gain JJ's. I decided to give a set of SED Winged "C" EL34's a try for the hell of it, but didn't like them in there. Went right back to the JJ 6L6GC's.

 

[siggy14]

I really dont care for EL34's in the rec's either, they are really not designed for them, it is just a throw in option to make the amp seem more verstile. But honestly I believe I read from Trace at voodoo amps that the transformers are not really designed for it.

I keep my gain around 1, or 2 and then throw a boost in front to tighten everything up.

I have pretty much a straight up setting with my rec's then just slightly tweak here or there. That rackmount sounded **** good though with all straight up at 12 noon, same with the one I have sitting in my room now.

I'm not too far from there actually. I settled on the Mids and Gain at 12 noon, and the Treble, Presence, and Bass all sitting in the 10:30 to 11:00 range. I did retube the preamp with a set of high gain JJ's. I decided to give a set of SED Winged "C" EL34's a try for the hell of it, but didn't like them in there. Went right back to the JJ 6L6GC's.

 

[Silverwulf]

I really dont care for EL34's in the rec's either, they are really not designed for them, it is just a throw in option to make the amp seem more verstile. But honestly I believe I read from Trace at voodoo amps that the transformers are not really designed for it.

I keep my gain around 1, or 2 and then throw a boost in front to tighten everything up.

Yeah, it definitely took away some characteristics in the sound that I like in Rectos. Wasn't my cup of tea. I usually use something like the settings above (w/EMG's) and toss my Maxon OD808 in front as a boost to tighten it up some.