Pre-amp vs. power-amp tube distortion (two more questions!)

[jukesgtr]

I believe most of us agree that M/B amps are pretty powerful, right?

Many many players talk about the great sound resulting from power tube distortion when pushed to the sweet point. However, I have a MK4 , use it in tweed setting and it is still too loud to push the power amp to the limit. It still sounds good with the pre-amp distortion only.

I would like to get your honest opinion if you really have to push your power amp to produce good sound rather than getting great "lead" sound distorting your pre-amp tubes. I am no longer that convinced about that since my amp(s) sound really good by pushing the pre-amp 12x7s.

(Your own ears decide of cource, not that I'll play louder from now on, just opinions and comments pls!)

 

[dylan7620]

i don't think both is essential, i don't think you have to crank your master altough i certainly do like its results. as far as recording goes i can get a really nice sound at lower volumes and it'll sound huge still, although it sounds great at full volume because you get all those harmonics of the tubes being pushed (and of course the break up).

 

[908ssp]

I don't think the sound of a Boogie requires or is benefited by cranking the amp for power tube distortion.

I do believe it is necessary to do that with a Marshall. A lot of that is just the difference in historical philosophy. Marshalls weren't built with master volumes, when they were used in the late 60's they were played loud and they distorted and that is the quintessential sound of a Marshall.

Boogies have alway had a master volume they have always had cascading pre-amp tubes. They made their mark by getting distortion from their pre-amp.

Whether one is better then the other is totally subjective and a silly argument in my opinion. I like both, I own both, I use both.

Luckily I can use a Boogie comfortably by itself. I have after an exhaustive and expensive search finally found an attenuator (Richter) that really works which I find indispensable when using a Marshall.

 

[dylan7620]

actually if you read the history of mesa in the catalogs it says that at first they didn't offer a master volume mod, because when they were first being used they didn't really work all that well at all.

well if it's 'benificial' or not i think thats dbatable as some tones require the power amp to be cooking at a certain temp, i don't think its the same case as with marshall like you said. i would've never thought much about 2203s, even with the preamp at 9, at low volumes with an EMG 81 it was still clean, after getting up to about 6 is when i changed my mind, and almost had to change my pants too. :lol:

 

[screamingdaisy]

Pre vs power dirt.....I think it comes down to personal preference.

I like to balance the two. If I don't overdrive the power tubes my amp (Rectifier) sounds thin and buzzy. If I overdrive it too much it sounds boomy and muddy.

 

[Boogiebabies]

The MK series amps have the Master Volume befor the PI, not after like most amps, so it does not effect the signal from the PI to the power tubes like most amps either. The power amp is bordering class B in how much clean power it produces and why it is so loud. The MK Series amps also have two personalities. One is using the lead master above three and the master volume above 2 or 3. This gives a brighter more cutting tone. The other is running the lead master at 1 and the master above 5-6. This gives a much rounder, fatter tone as the power amp is really involved in the total output, not just preamp gain. It is a great place to try and tweak the setting to blend the two. This is applicable to the MK IV as well, but it can have even more tonal variations with the push pull presence pot. So, depending on the tone your looking for you can tweak both setting to find your middle ground. If I want power amp involvement with a bit more bite I would try the treble at 7 or notch the lead master just over 1. Depending on the taper of your lead master pot, this may be between .5 and 2. The sustain is unbeleivable with these setting. It is like having a sustainer.

 

[wolfgang6505]

I like the sound of both however, I don't think you need power amp distortion to occur with a mesa's preamp distortion up.

Actually I like that mesa's are so loud. I think it's great

-Wolf

 

[Nocki]

I gues it "feels" better when poweramps are really driving the speakers and are starting to overdrive.

but this really never happens when i'm on stage because I allways have to play at a normal level. I choose boogie because the dont have to be turned up around 10 to sound good. allthough the sound monster at anything above 3!

Nocki

 

[Red Barchetta]

I admit...most of the time, the clubs I play don't require my stage volume to be loud enough to push the power tubes. Regardless, my Road King still sounds like God. On the occasion that I play large venues or festival stages, it is just that extra bit of heaven when I turn that bad boy up and get the power tube breakup....it is a truly sweet and musical sound.


So I guess my opinion is, you don't really have to drive the Boogies power tubes to get a good sound, but if you are lucky enough to be able to do it....WOW.


RB

 

[Boogiebabies]

I admit...most of the time, the clubs I play don't require my stage volume to be loud enough to push the power tubes. Regardless, my Road King still sounds like God. On the occasion that I play large venues or festival stages, it is just that extra bit of heaven when I turn that bad boy up and get the power tube breakup....it is a truly sweet and musical sound.


So I guess my opinion is, you don't really have to drive the Boogies power tubes to get a good sound, but if you are lucky enough to be able to do it....WOW.


RB

My RK is sickening as well. To hell with the sound guy and let it rip.

 

[jukesgtr]

Just briefly here, need to run now...thanks guys for your opinions and advice, I'll keep on tweaking my amp even though it already sounds good...

 

[Monsta-Tone]

My DC-2 gets seriously sweet Power Amp distortion.


There is a whole different feel and reactance to Power Amp distortion that cannot be described. It has to be experienced.

It all depends on what you're looking for in tone and feel. Most Blues players only like Power Amp distortion. Most Metal players only like to use Preamp distortion.


If you've ever seen Santana, he seems to use a good mixture of both. There is no way that he can get that much sustain without using a good amount of Power Amp distortion. Not all of us get to play in colliseums though.



I use my DC-2 with the Volume (Gain) and Lead Channel Master Volume at 11 - 2 o'clock, with the amp's Master Volume at about 4. It is excrutiatingly loud, but very sweet, with sustain for days. I can hit a note, go make a sandwich, take a leak, and come back to the most beautiful sustain and feedback.

I just got my DC-3 today. Ebay score for $455, ugly as hell, but sounds like heaven. I'll have to see how much Power Amp distortion I can get out of it.

 

[fatboy135]

In my point of view there is not really a needed overdrive about the power amps, I think that playing the tubes at louder levels sounds very very nice. I think that the overdrive needs to be become from the preamp where overdrive a tube is easier and the amps suffer less. Thinks that when you are overdriven a tube power amp your are taking all the full power of the power supply, and the transform is working so hardly.
I think that dirty must be on tube preamps and the purist sound must be on the tube power section. Playing at loud levels is great but get the top of the power for saturate the power tubes.... :roll:
Furthermore, amps designs becames ready to preamp tubes saturation, but the power tubes design are the most cleaner as they can.
For this reasons I think that OD the power tubes is not a good idea, I remember that Jimy Hendrix do that and his amps dead after a couple of gigs ( marshall sucks )
These are my technical arguments. But the experienced said us that technical is another world on guitar players.
So..... play it for your taste :wink:

 

[Mahoner]

On my C+, I rarely use the Lead channel unless I'm just messing around with tones.

For most of my playing I only use the Rhythm channel. Everything is set so I get a nice bright bit of breakup with the guitar's Volume and Tone controls on full(picture the "That's What I Like About You" tone). If I want a little less bright, I taper the guitar's tone. A little cleaner, I taper the guitar's volume. And there's many combinations of the two. If I want real heavy OD I use a DS-1.

I prefer to let the amp work. I love the beefiness of the power tube saturation.

This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

This is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

8) 8) 8)

Not if it's your Tone. Who cares what others are doing. It all comes down to the fact that you are expressing yourself.

I've never really been a technical player. I was Classically trained but have fought hard to be a "From the heart" player and not a "Bach Rocker."

I've had guys that we have opened for come up to me and ask how they can get my tone after the gig. :twisted: That's all I care about. I knew the other guys could blow me away, so I made it a point to sound way better than the competition. Santana can't hold his own against Steve Vai when it comes to technical abillity, but I bet Vai would kiss the stage that Santana walked on if they were playing together.





Again, it's all a matter of what you're looking for. As a recovering Metal Head, I was at a loss for a useable tone until I started hot-rodding amps. :mrgreen:

Now, I am fully addicted to working on them. I even had to open my own Repair Shop. I get to try many different amps and modify them to the Owner's personal Tone. I still refuse to make holes and ir-reversable mods on Vintage Amps though. I've seen way too many people ruin the resale value on a Plexi or Twin and then decide not to keep it anyway.


We are truly living in great times. Think of all the choices that Hendrix or Chuck Berry had. Then think of all the amps that are on the market now. If you don't like Power Amp Distortion, you don't have to use it.

 

[danipman]

I have a C+ and have found that getting really soft tubes (from Doug's Tubes in Wantagh) and changing the speaker from the EV to a Jensen, then a Revend All Tone made a big difference in my sound. The EV is blaring due to its very high efficiency. I used to never be able to turn the Master past 3.5 even in Simul with out it hurting my ears after a while.

I put some soft JJ's in and a speaker rated about 98 SPL and now I can turn up the master and get some nice saturation.

The Pre vs Power distortion is definitely different, the overdriven power tubes really round out the sound, and give you hands much more influence on the sound. Its a clearer overdrive, what makes tube guitar amps superior to solid state.



Maybe not for Heavy Metal, but for Blues, Rock, Funk stuff the Power tube overdrive is key. Especially the clean channel. A little sterile at low volumes, but if you can get the clean channel to start to burn a little, these amps sound awesome.


If the tubes arent pushed, it sounds like solid state (on the Boogie. Fenders not so much)

IMO

DPW

 

[jukesgtr]

I have a single channel Laney LC15 (two EL84s in pwr amp) that has a master and gain controls, using both methods the distortion and sustain is/sounds to me about the same, that was one reason I started this thread too.
-----------------
Kind of in/off topic, did not want to start new discussion:

- You Mark seriest experts, pls let me know what are the vol/gain etc. settings you have found for the max. tube compression (I do not use effect pedals)
- Also, since I am a cheap guy should I use pre-amp distortion for the leads etc. to MINIMIZE maintenance costs, i.e. for maximum tube life time taking into account that power tubes costs more than pre-amp tubes?
- I guess I can safely use the class A setting in my MK4 (outer two tubes runnig only?) with the amp equipped with four 6L6s, have not tried it yet (tried with EL34s in outer sockets). How does the sound change from the simulclass mode? Is it still Fenderish or something totally different? I understand from the manual I can get more power tube distortion while running in class A.

 

[screamingdaisy]

If you've ever seen Santana, he seems to use a good mixture of both. There is no way that he can get that much sustain without using a good amount of Power Amp distortion.

I think alot of it has to do with the fact that he's running two Tubescreamers into his MkI.

 

[srf399]

P90 pickups ... and a tube screamer for sure.... but with a MKI you'd need a tube screamer, My MKIV will sustain forever without one. But the thick.. Santana sound is a round P90 sound and mahogony body guitar.

 

[Monsta-Tone]

I think alot of it has to do with the fact that he's running two Tubescreamers into his MkI.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make.

He sets the amp up so that the tone is fairly clean, but the Power Tubes are being pushed nicely, so there is plenty of Clean Sustain. Then the pedals push it over the edge.

a good A/B comparison might be Steely Dan, Reelin' in th Years. The leads are all Preamp distortio with a pedal or 2. It's still a great song with a Signature Tone, just different.




I prefer the amp to Breathe a little and use a good mixture of both. Depending on the Volume that I'm playing.

If I am playing at a lower Volume, I use more Preamp Distortion. If I actually get to crank it, I find that I lower the Gain significantly as the Volume goes up.








As for the Mark IV with EL34's, the only way I could get good Power Tube Distortion from my Mark IV was:

JJ E34L Blue in the outer sockets. They were older and a little softer, probably a 4 on the Groove Tube Scale.

Tweed Power
Class A
Harmonics (not Mid Gain, which I liked also)
Triode


In the Triode setting, it adds a lot of Bass. I think it kind of tames the EL's a bit and makes them less harsh or trebly.

It won't sound exactly the same, but you have so many knobs on that amp that you can get extremely close.