Practical Explanation of the Express Tone Stack?

[JiJoe]

I am trying to get my head around how the tone stack actually works from the perspective of how to dial in tones.
I have a background in electronic engineering so understand the operation and ordering of the filters etc.

However, what I am really looking for is to understand the controls from a sound and feel perspective.
I have read the manual many times over - and also many very helpful posts here and in other places about how people dial in.

I've had a 5 50+ for about 7 or 8 years now. Love it and generally play on channel 1 with a clean tone. It's very easy to dial in a great clean on this amp.
However, I have recently been more interested in shaping the tone more for specific types of sound on different guitars. So I'd like to just be able to control what I'm getting out of this amp very consciously. What I have been doing is messing around (following the rules of thumb about gain & bass etc) and going with what I find - but to be honest I don't really know why I am getting what I get out.

So for example when the manual talks about the gain and treble controls being inter-related - what does that really mean sonically?
When it talks about EQ'ing the distortion by going through the treble then bass then mids - what does that mean in terms of what you're hearing and how the amp feels to play?

The sliders and pre-set contour control seem pretty intuitive to use and the visual to sonic output is easy to understand. It's really the gain and EQ dials that I'd like to get my head around better.

This might be as much about how to describe and break into components a target sound that you're trying to achieve and then trying to get that to happen on the amp. Anybody with an explanation of a target sound and how they go about breaking it down and dialling it in would be fascinating to hear.

I'm in the funk/jazz/classic rock/blues type areas more than heavy metal. I think if you said e.g. what that Dumble tone? I would be struggling a bit to define exactly what that means. I like all the great Steely Dan/later Fagen guitar sounds - single coil and HB as a mood board. But that's not the important bit - it's more how to take command of this EQ stage.

Any thoughts on this would be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[user 41014]

So for example when the manual talks about the gain and treble controls being inter-related - what does that really mean sonically?
When it talks about EQ'ing the distortion by going through the treble then bass then mids - what does that mean in terms of what you're hearing and how the amp feels to play?

Part of your post can be answered by signal path.

Gain is not in isolation of treble, it comes 1st, then treble, then bass, then mid, then down river. So instead of a band pass filter you need to be thinking of shaping as a dynamic sculpture where pushing on the clay in one spot causes bulging or caving in another spot.

Sonic interpretations are that when you increase the gain you are increasing the bass and if you don't inversely dial that bass out you are going to think your amp sucks and sell it to me cheap in disgust (not you personally).

I still like to do a full sweep of individual tone controls with the others zeroed out when playing with a new amp but then the interplay is just as important if not more. I guess that is why it is called tone shaping whereas the GEQ is using LCR band pass filters for cut/boost. EQ is more precise but not as organic so to speak.

Then there is the presence pot not in the tone stack known for dialing brightness and effectively is a negative feedback adjustment for the power section.

 

[SteveB]

I definitely agree with Electric's comments re: sweeping tone controls and interplay. This is what makes Mesa amps a little complicated for me, even the single channel ones (I own an Express 5:25 + and California Tweed). For example, if I am hearing a mid-range tone that is unappealing to me, I may actually have to lower the treble or bass, not the mids. I may even have to increase the mids a bid. That has been confusing to me but I have learned to work the adjacent controls and not rely on what I consider to be a treble/mid/bass tone.

One other idea -- you could explore the Blues or even the Crunch voicings for alt clean tones. They can produce great clean tones for some guitars, especially if you like a little breakup based on your attack. You may be able to hit on other target sounds there that you can't dial in on the Clean voicing. The manual contains tips on getting a clean tone with the Blues voicing which you can use as a starting point. I use that voicing a lot for a nice warm clean-ish tone.

 

[JiJoe]

Thanks for that Steve and EM - really appreciate the time you guys have taken to share your thoughts.
I had replied twice earlier today but think I was logged out so the response didn't come through - trying again, logged in this time. Lol!

I got a lot out of this - really like EM's concept of the clay and sculpting the tone. If I note what I am picking up from these explanations and what I got from the manual - and talking in sonic rather than electronic terms - let me know if this is going in the right direction

1. Gain and treble are move the most clay (from EM's analogy) and have the biggest overall impact on tone in general.
2. However the effect isn't linear between the controls - it's more like a parametric EQ than a GEQ - so tweaking treble requires proportionally more tweaks on bass and mid to achieve a target tone.
3. Bass is next most important as its setting the focus of the sound (blurred to sharp) - I guess what's referred to as tightness
4. Mid is having the least overall sonic effect but is effecting feel - spongey to hard - which may seem like trebly harshness beyond a certain point?

So Gain & Treble = general sound
Mid = Feel
Bass = Focus

Thanks again for your thoughts Steve & EM - much appreciated.

 

[Gthewildman]

Hi Joe
Express 5:25

Not to hi Jack this thread but my questions are similar. I understand that the gain controls also change the tone so additional eq adjustment is required. But no matter how I try I find it hard to use the amp without pedals for going from clean or crunch to lead. I find going to blues is a bit dull unless I dime the gain control. I really like the Burn channel but find it quite a contrast from clean or crunch. I assume I am doing something wrong. All suggestions will be greatly received.

 

[JiJoe]

Hello G

No problem at all buddy - glad you jumped in - it all helps.
I think the others in the forum here are probably better placed to give informed views on this.

I am similar to yourself - I am getting great sounds on the clean channel - clean and with a TS and/or stacked into a MP Simble pedal which has some interesting controls. Also getting great sounds on the Burn channel with the gain around 9 o'clock.

I find I'm getting a better handle on how to dial this all in following the thinking above where the gain and treble are setting the overall stage and bass is filling things out - and mid controlling the feel - loose at lower settings and getting more stiff (or resistant I think the manual says) as mid is increased. I am finding that really small adjustments make a significant difference.

Although - even with all of that - I've had this amp for a good few years and always enjoyed it - just trying to get more in the drivers seat rather than happening on something then going with it.

I'm going to fiddle with the Blues Channel and will get back with any thoughts on that too.

All the best