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Couple extra pics. The power tubes in standby...
...the power tubes not in standby...
Everything seem normal?
...the power tubes not in standby...
Everything seem normal?
Potential New JP2C Owner
- Thread starter ntotoro
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You can’t determine the condition of the tubes by looking at them. They need to be checked with a tube tester.
All I can tell from that picture is that the heaters work, and the tubes seem to be passing current at idle.
Dom
All I can tell from that picture is that the heaters work, and the tubes seem to be passing current at idle.
Dom
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There is no audible sound when I tap the power tubes with a pencil. Thinking the issue is deeper than just tubes... pass on this one LOL!
That’s probably a good choice. Seeing that some of the preamp tubes were already replaced it looks like someone was already chasing this problem and is now willing to get rid of it.
Dom
The one characteristic of the power tubes that set them apart is the impedance when dealing with variants of the same type: 6L6GC. Different plate structures, shape, or bends, welded or crimped. Different grid structures, shape of the beam forming plates the cathode. Type of wire used in the grids, screen and such.
When the original STR440 began to make noise. I got a few alternatives.
When the original STR440 began to make noise. I got a few alternatives.
- STR441 [ Tung Sol RCA copies ] (green) Lame as all hell in the JP2C. Talk about getting neutered. Amp had no balls. Note that I was impressed with these in the Mark V90.
- STR443 [ Sovtek/EH tube with stepped base ] (grey), Not quite as neutered as the STR441 but lack that grind I was getting from the STR440. Too much low end, not much in midrange and the highs rolled off.
- STR440 [Chinese 6L6GC tube, Shuguang / Sino] (grey) had balls, but also had a bit of fizzy character to it. Awesome tube and a favorite in the MWDR. I am still using them in the Roadster (mostly in the red or yellow bias color) for the MWDR grey and the JP2C the same. No longer produced.
- STR440 [see above] (green) not as good as the grey. Sort of lost that desired character. Sounded good but I could tell the difference.
- STR448 [TAD RedBase/PSVANE 6L6 made to TAD spec] (red), may as well give up on high gain and go country. Not bad but not all that spectacular. These were the second set, forgot to specify bias color, oops. Figured I would try them out and see the bias color makes a difference, you bet it does.
- STR448 [see above] (grey) now we are cooking with plenty of teeth, good kick and more balls than the STR440 grey. Almost had that STR415 characteristic, more chime on clean, a bit of airiness to the gain characteristic.
- STR445 [JJ 6L6GC tube ] (green) The closest tube to the STR415 without the $550 price. Same tube used in the Mark VII, actually that is where they came from.
- STR415 [NOS Sylvania 6L6GC STR415](green, they will always be green), best tube for the JP2C to date but limited supply and expensive. Not easy to get and very hard to find. Have been out of production since 1985?
- STR454 [NOS SED =C= 6L6GC ] (green) They sort of fell in between the STR415 and STR448, a bit more top end characteristic. No longer produced.
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Sorry about the confusion there. I was focusing only on the JP2C and mentioned the other amps as a reference. I meant the note definition and tone density of the JP2C. It has yet to be rivaled by any of my other amps. That is with the STR415 Sylvania tubes. OMG what a sound. I wish I had an original IIC+ to compare with it. From what I recall, there were a few models that ran close to 500VDC plate volage and the STR415 was the only tube that will safely work with that. I doubt the JP2C is pushing that kind of voltage. Still those STR415 once they warm up are incredible.
Understand one thing here, the benchmark tube I had for reference were the original tubes that came in the JP2C in 2016, STR440 grey. Those lasted for a few years but had some issues with static pop noises from time to time. When I got the MWDR in 2018, I swapped the tubes as they had the same tube and bias color. The tubes I had issues with in the JP2C worked find in the MWDR and are still in that amp now. JP2C is temperamental with power tubes. I eventually got the static pop with the other set of STR440. Tried the STR443 for S&G's, no static pops, but neutered the amp and basically lost interest in using it. I can see why one would think on selling the amp. However, it is unclear if that is the issue with the amp you have. The suspects would be V3 and V4 since that is the heart and sole of the JP2C for the lead drive voicing. Basic signal path is V1A-> tone stack -> V1B -> V3B -> V4A -> V2A -> fx loop -> V2B -> GEQ -> PI -> power tubes.
If that issue cannot be resolved with preamp tube swaps, it could be an internal issue. Not an easy task to be poking around a stuffed board. Before you do anything exploratory, I recommend against it unless you are well versed in proper safety and know what it is you are looking at and working with. First thing to do, email Mesa customer service and see how they respond to your inquiry. Just state the facts you have little or no gain character on CH2 or CH3 but an abundance of sound on the clean. They may have something to offer or suggest.
Just to keep you from removing the chassis, here is what it looks like inside. No need to open up the amp you have as it should look much the same. It is easy to get out of the head shell, not so easy to get back in.
Considering the layout, it is not all that bad when compared to the Mark V90 or the Mark VII. Even un-plugged, there could be lethal voltages stored in the capacitors. Be safe, leave it. It will not kill you to remove the chassis, just keep hands out of the circuits. Still no point in doing that unless you have the limited edition JP2C as that face plate does not come off. My hands are too large to reach around the fan and stuff in the way to get to the preamp tubes. Not something you need to change on a regular basis as they should last a long time compared to the lifespan of the power tubes.
The STR445 (green bias) are very close with a slight tone difference. Those sort of have a 6CA7 character sound but are not an EL34 variant, they are 6L6GC.
The STR448 (gray bias) are close as well but have more air in the sound. Those rock too. I was on the fence which tube I liked better. Since I have the rare STR415 tubes, may as well enjoy them while I can.
STR445 and the STR448 are priced about the same. Sweetwater only carries the STR448 and the STR443, if you order them, make a request for grey bias color or even blue if they have them. Sometimes when you ask for grey you get green. GRY vs GRN can be confusing for those picking from boxes. Musicians Friend (aka Guitar Center) zZounds also has them. STR445 is about $10 less per pair than the STR448.
Now you gave me the opportunity to open up Pandora's box:
to another long post.
If I set that up to happen, my bad. Was not the intent. Sorry. I will try to keep it short.
Typically when I get my hands on new tubes or something different, I will try them out in everything I have that will work with them. Mostly since the STR440 tubes are no longer available. Why pay a premium for a so-so power tube? For the Roadster, I would if nothing else works. I sort of have a better perspective on what works for me in each amp. (what is listed in my signature).
Mark VII:
If we were talking about the Mark VII, I would have to say stick with the STR445 in a yellow bias color as I found the green bias colors to be too much for that amp, it is noticed at gig level as the amp will loose some character and get swamped. The first mark VII came with the green bias color STR445 tube. I repleced those with the yellow bias color. At one point I was running a pair of the STR448 in yellow bias or red bias color range in the outer sockets to improve the tone. The mixing of power tubes in a Simul-Class amp works great. What is in the extended-class A sockets (STR445) sets the overall tone of the amp, the supporting tubes for 90W adds to enhance the sound characteristics but not that dramatic. On the flip side, the Class A/B amp, when mixing different tubes having the same bias color or different, the tube with the lowest impedance will set the overall tone. That trick does not seem to work well. If you do try that, make sure the inner pair are matched and the outer pair are matched. That way when you switch to 60W you do not have a miss-match set.
Dual Rectifier: (depends on the model)
Each amp will have its own character to it. Say for instance, the Dual Rectifier Roadster, sounds the best with the STR440 reds IMHO. MWDR that would go to the STR440 grey. I personally did not like either of those amps with the STR445 tube. I have not tried the yellow bias color version in the MWDR yet. Those were too much for the Roadster. It may work well. Won't know until I try it. Thing with the Dual Rec, it is all about preamp. Stuffing in tubes with early onset of distortion (green, gray, blue) throws it off and makes it sound muddy. More true for the Roadster than the MWDR.
The Mark V90:
The best tube for that amp is the STR454 (SED =C= 6L6GC). Those tubes had a 3D effect to them. I did not get that effect with the other amps though. STR441 tubes actually sounded really good in that amp too. A bit off in the Mark VII. The STR415 made the amp sound boxy. Same with the STR448 tube.
I will not jump into EL34 mode as the JP2C does not support that tube type. All you get are the flavors of 6L6 tubes offered by Mesa (if you like your warranty). Sure, one can use non-Mesa branded power tube, thing is to get them in the proper plate current range. The bias colors are not a specific plate current value, they are ranges and may overlap to a slight extent. Some of the selection criteria may be based on emissions from the cathode as well as plate current. That sorting process is over my head so best leave it at that. Just an interesting point to make, Mesa was getting in bulk supply the STR440 tube. They would test, sort, match, brand and label them. Discard tubes that did not fit in their specific range or had other quality issues. Ruby Tubes offered the same Shuguang tube, 6L6GC-MSTR ? been a while so I do not remember the actual part number. I still have them and I can look at the box they came in. They looked the same, sorted and tested differently by the vendor and had a different characteristic tone.
Sometimes you may even hear the difference between the preamp tubes. Those get tested and sorted, branded or discarded. Tubes from Eurotubes or other resources that sell the JJ ECC83s may have a different sound or gain characteristic than the Mesa branded tube of the same thing. It is all due to how the tubes are tested and rejected. That is more of a trade secret. Similar to the Groove tubes thing back when they were in business before Fender bought them out. Mesa or Groove tubes do not manufacture vacuum tubes. Neither does TAD, Ruby, Eurotubes (unless they are a direct link to the resource) New Sensor and the like. They filter out the bad and sell the good (I can only assume). That service adds cost but keeps the junk out of our amps in most cases.
I do not know everything. This sort of turned into a tube discussion, my bad. Also, everyone has their own opinion on what preamp or power tubes will sound best for their individual needs. What may sound epic to me may sound terrible to you. Depends on the guitars you run, are they extended range or standard 6? The JP2C can handle either.
Understand one thing here, the benchmark tube I had for reference were the original tubes that came in the JP2C in 2016, STR440 grey. Those lasted for a few years but had some issues with static pop noises from time to time. When I got the MWDR in 2018, I swapped the tubes as they had the same tube and bias color. The tubes I had issues with in the JP2C worked find in the MWDR and are still in that amp now. JP2C is temperamental with power tubes. I eventually got the static pop with the other set of STR440. Tried the STR443 for S&G's, no static pops, but neutered the amp and basically lost interest in using it. I can see why one would think on selling the amp. However, it is unclear if that is the issue with the amp you have. The suspects would be V3 and V4 since that is the heart and sole of the JP2C for the lead drive voicing. Basic signal path is V1A-> tone stack -> V1B -> V3B -> V4A -> V2A -> fx loop -> V2B -> GEQ -> PI -> power tubes.
If that issue cannot be resolved with preamp tube swaps, it could be an internal issue. Not an easy task to be poking around a stuffed board. Before you do anything exploratory, I recommend against it unless you are well versed in proper safety and know what it is you are looking at and working with. First thing to do, email Mesa customer service and see how they respond to your inquiry. Just state the facts you have little or no gain character on CH2 or CH3 but an abundance of sound on the clean. They may have something to offer or suggest.
Just to keep you from removing the chassis, here is what it looks like inside. No need to open up the amp you have as it should look much the same. It is easy to get out of the head shell, not so easy to get back in.
Considering the layout, it is not all that bad when compared to the Mark V90 or the Mark VII. Even un-plugged, there could be lethal voltages stored in the capacitors. Be safe, leave it. It will not kill you to remove the chassis, just keep hands out of the circuits. Still no point in doing that unless you have the limited edition JP2C as that face plate does not come off. My hands are too large to reach around the fan and stuff in the way to get to the preamp tubes. Not something you need to change on a regular basis as they should last a long time compared to the lifespan of the power tubes.
The STR445 (green bias) are very close with a slight tone difference. Those sort of have a 6CA7 character sound but are not an EL34 variant, they are 6L6GC.
The STR448 (gray bias) are close as well but have more air in the sound. Those rock too. I was on the fence which tube I liked better. Since I have the rare STR415 tubes, may as well enjoy them while I can.
STR445 and the STR448 are priced about the same. Sweetwater only carries the STR448 and the STR443, if you order them, make a request for grey bias color or even blue if they have them. Sometimes when you ask for grey you get green. GRY vs GRN can be confusing for those picking from boxes. Musicians Friend (aka Guitar Center) zZounds also has them. STR445 is about $10 less per pair than the STR448.
Now you gave me the opportunity to open up Pandora's box:
to another long post.If I set that up to happen, my bad. Was not the intent. Sorry. I will try to keep it short.
Typically when I get my hands on new tubes or something different, I will try them out in everything I have that will work with them. Mostly since the STR440 tubes are no longer available. Why pay a premium for a so-so power tube? For the Roadster, I would if nothing else works. I sort of have a better perspective on what works for me in each amp. (what is listed in my signature).
Mark VII:
If we were talking about the Mark VII, I would have to say stick with the STR445 in a yellow bias color as I found the green bias colors to be too much for that amp, it is noticed at gig level as the amp will loose some character and get swamped. The first mark VII came with the green bias color STR445 tube. I repleced those with the yellow bias color. At one point I was running a pair of the STR448 in yellow bias or red bias color range in the outer sockets to improve the tone. The mixing of power tubes in a Simul-Class amp works great. What is in the extended-class A sockets (STR445) sets the overall tone of the amp, the supporting tubes for 90W adds to enhance the sound characteristics but not that dramatic. On the flip side, the Class A/B amp, when mixing different tubes having the same bias color or different, the tube with the lowest impedance will set the overall tone. That trick does not seem to work well. If you do try that, make sure the inner pair are matched and the outer pair are matched. That way when you switch to 60W you do not have a miss-match set.
Dual Rectifier: (depends on the model)
Each amp will have its own character to it. Say for instance, the Dual Rectifier Roadster, sounds the best with the STR440 reds IMHO. MWDR that would go to the STR440 grey. I personally did not like either of those amps with the STR445 tube. I have not tried the yellow bias color version in the MWDR yet. Those were too much for the Roadster. It may work well. Won't know until I try it. Thing with the Dual Rec, it is all about preamp. Stuffing in tubes with early onset of distortion (green, gray, blue) throws it off and makes it sound muddy. More true for the Roadster than the MWDR.
The Mark V90:
The best tube for that amp is the STR454 (SED =C= 6L6GC). Those tubes had a 3D effect to them. I did not get that effect with the other amps though. STR441 tubes actually sounded really good in that amp too. A bit off in the Mark VII. The STR415 made the amp sound boxy. Same with the STR448 tube.
I will not jump into EL34 mode as the JP2C does not support that tube type. All you get are the flavors of 6L6 tubes offered by Mesa (if you like your warranty). Sure, one can use non-Mesa branded power tube, thing is to get them in the proper plate current range. The bias colors are not a specific plate current value, they are ranges and may overlap to a slight extent. Some of the selection criteria may be based on emissions from the cathode as well as plate current. That sorting process is over my head so best leave it at that. Just an interesting point to make, Mesa was getting in bulk supply the STR440 tube. They would test, sort, match, brand and label them. Discard tubes that did not fit in their specific range or had other quality issues. Ruby Tubes offered the same Shuguang tube, 6L6GC-MSTR ? been a while so I do not remember the actual part number. I still have them and I can look at the box they came in. They looked the same, sorted and tested differently by the vendor and had a different characteristic tone.
Sometimes you may even hear the difference between the preamp tubes. Those get tested and sorted, branded or discarded. Tubes from Eurotubes or other resources that sell the JJ ECC83s may have a different sound or gain characteristic than the Mesa branded tube of the same thing. It is all due to how the tubes are tested and rejected. That is more of a trade secret. Similar to the Groove tubes thing back when they were in business before Fender bought them out. Mesa or Groove tubes do not manufacture vacuum tubes. Neither does TAD, Ruby, Eurotubes (unless they are a direct link to the resource) New Sensor and the like. They filter out the bad and sell the good (I can only assume). That service adds cost but keeps the junk out of our amps in most cases.
I do not know everything. This sort of turned into a tube discussion, my bad. Also, everyone has their own opinion on what preamp or power tubes will sound best for their individual needs. What may sound epic to me may sound terrible to you. Depends on the guitars you run, are they extended range or standard 6? The JP2C can handle either.
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@bandit2013
No worries at all!!! I appreciate the information far more than you can realize. Believe it or not, what made me fall in-love with exactly what you mention about the JP2C (other than video clips) was the Fractal model LOL!!! I know that seems weird and backward. You have no deal how much I appreciate the info you're taking your time out to give here. I've learned so much in just a few days.
Here's my deal... I've gone a long time trying to make high-gain Plexi-ish amps work for me. I can get a great sound from the rear pickups, but can never get a good sound from the front pickups with gain. My guitars all have some sort of single-coil in the front, whether a Tele-type guitar, Strat-type guitar or a H/S setup. The front pickup always sounds thin and weedy. With the Mark series amps, I can get something that still sounds like a single-coil, but is more bold & thick and still have fantastic punch, crunch and clarity with the rear pickup without changing settings. I fell in-love with that. So much variety just changing guitars.
I've had some bangers, too... Friedman BE-100 Deluxe, Bogner Helios Eclipse... my old green-panel Shiva from 2005 came the closest, but the gain would get furry at times. I'm guessing the absurd plate voltage of the Shiva, just like you mention above, has a lot to do with its tone. Fantastic with Strats and Teles, though you couldn't get it to sing as nicely as the JP2C. The one shortcoming of the Friedman and the Helios Eclipse: they still sounded weedy with the front single-coil pickups once I got a nice rear pickup sound. V30's tend to contribute to that weediness a bit for me.
My guitars are all 6's (standard and drop-D) and 7's (standard 7 tuning). They are Suhr Classic S's, a Classic T, Modern T (with a regular single-coil in the front) a couple custom H/S Moderns and a Modern 7 (ok... that one does have a humbucker in the front). Style... Rock LOL! That's the best way I can describe it.
If the Mark VII did that better than the JP2C and captured that single-note fullness and chordal crunch better, I'd be fine going that route. The JP2C was just the devil I sort of knew LOL! It sounds, the way you're describing it, that the JP2C is definitely that beast!
I'm just worried it'll lead me down the rabbit hole of other Mesas LOL!!! I've only ever had two in the past... distant past, like 20+ years ago: a Dual Rectifier that I sold in like two weeks (not sure the revision) and a Stiletto Deuce from when they first came out.
Nick
No worries at all!!! I appreciate the information far more than you can realize. Believe it or not, what made me fall in-love with exactly what you mention about the JP2C (other than video clips) was the Fractal model LOL!!! I know that seems weird and backward. You have no deal how much I appreciate the info you're taking your time out to give here. I've learned so much in just a few days.
Here's my deal... I've gone a long time trying to make high-gain Plexi-ish amps work for me. I can get a great sound from the rear pickups, but can never get a good sound from the front pickups with gain. My guitars all have some sort of single-coil in the front, whether a Tele-type guitar, Strat-type guitar or a H/S setup. The front pickup always sounds thin and weedy. With the Mark series amps, I can get something that still sounds like a single-coil, but is more bold & thick and still have fantastic punch, crunch and clarity with the rear pickup without changing settings. I fell in-love with that. So much variety just changing guitars.
I've had some bangers, too... Friedman BE-100 Deluxe, Bogner Helios Eclipse... my old green-panel Shiva from 2005 came the closest, but the gain would get furry at times. I'm guessing the absurd plate voltage of the Shiva, just like you mention above, has a lot to do with its tone. Fantastic with Strats and Teles, though you couldn't get it to sing as nicely as the JP2C. The one shortcoming of the Friedman and the Helios Eclipse: they still sounded weedy with the front single-coil pickups once I got a nice rear pickup sound. V30's tend to contribute to that weediness a bit for me.
My guitars are all 6's (standard and drop-D) and 7's (standard 7 tuning). They are Suhr Classic S's, a Classic T, Modern T (with a regular single-coil in the front) a couple custom H/S Moderns and a Modern 7 (ok... that one does have a humbucker in the front). Style... Rock LOL! That's the best way I can describe it.
If the Mark VII did that better than the JP2C and captured that single-note fullness and chordal crunch better, I'd be fine going that route. The JP2C was just the devil I sort of knew LOL! It sounds, the way you're describing it, that the JP2C is definitely that beast!
I'm just worried it'll lead me down the rabbit hole of other Mesas LOL!!! I've only ever had two in the past... distant past, like 20+ years ago: a Dual Rectifier that I sold in like two weeks (not sure the revision) and a Stiletto Deuce from when they first came out.
Nick
Last edited:
Ok, I see, you are hooked on a model representation. We all know that is not the real deal. Based on what you wrote, you have some history with tube amps. That is good. I will leave about the basics. Sorry for that if it was redundant.
I assume it could be the power tubes but lets hold off on that for the time being. Perhaps this weekend I can get the JP2C out of its storage area and swap out the STR415 with the STR443. It has been a year or longer since I had the STR443 tubes in the amp.
To start off, what speaker cabinet to you have? 8 ohm or 16 ohm? I ask this as I have also found the JP2C, even though it can support a 16 ohm cab, it is not at its prime. If you had two 16 ohm cabs and if they have an input/output jack on them, you can connect the two cabs together and end up with 8 ohms. That is the ideal impedance for just about every Mesa. They sing best with the 8 ohm loads. When using two 8 ohm cabs plugged into each of the 4 ohm jacks, that will cut some treble down a bit but that would be the secondary main use for running two 8 ohm 412 cabs or 212 cabs, or 112 cabs with 8 ohm impedances. The last question is: what is the wattage of the cab(s)? Having at least 120W capacity will be fine. Ok, lets say you had two 50W 112 cabs, When you connect them to the amp using the two 4 ohm jacks you will have a total power of 100W for the load. Sure you can run the amp at 60W but that seems to take away some of its mean power and sound less desirable. The manual suggests when using 60W, to compensate or correct for the loading, they recommend to connect an 8 ohm speaker to the 4 ohm jack. Some sort of miss match thing. I always run at 100W.
I never made use of the cab-clone or headphones. So I cannot relate to that aspect of the amp.
So, if you have a guitar speaker cab rated for 100W+ and you can run the amp at a decent volume level, then great.
How to tell if the V3 or V4 tubes are compromised: Set all controls to noon including the channel master volumes. Leave the gain at 9am. Compare each channel. What we want to do is listen to the difference in volume. Then increase the gain setting to the next level at 10am, and so on. No need to be exact here, just adjust gain gradually. Push in the gain and presence controls if you have them pulled out. Turn off shred mode if you have that set. No effects in the loop. Reverb, you and use it or not.
What you may hear is the clean will be crisp and bold, CH2 will have a slight volume drop and CH3 may even exhibit that as well. That is the difference between uncompressed non-distorted signal and a clipped, compressed signal. As the gain goes up on the lead channels, the volume will level out but the drive characteristic will change dramatically.
If the lead channels CH2 and CH3 do not have the volume level close to the clean channel, yeah, you have a preamp tube issue with V3 or V4. It if made no difference and the two lead channels are muffed, no drive, no volume and it still sounds like you are only pushing 1W vs 100W that would indicate one of the tubes is not working properly or something is up with the circuit inside the amp that is either stuck in a strobe mute issue. If that was the case, you would not be able to hear it except for a faint sound with all of the controls maxed out.
I wrote the above with the thought of the STR443 tubes in mind. At bedroom levels, 100W at a 9am setting on the master volumes it will be all bass, barely any midrange or treble. Those tubes seem to have a different gain sensitivity for low level signals. For those tubes to bloom to full spectrum, you need a stronger signal level to work those tubes. Those particular tubes cut midrange and shore off the top end. When it comes to the STR445, STR448, or if you can afford them once you get a resource the STR415 will have a decent and balanced spectrum of sound at low signal levels and at noon and beyond which is more gig level territory. Also, they will be much louder so no need to go past noon.
When I first got the JP2C I was ecstatic. Not because it was a JP2C, but because it was a better amp than the Mark V90 despite it only having three modes, clean, crunch and more crunch.
There are some very long posts in that. I used word to create the text as I found getting interrupted every 15 seconds with adds was annoying. That was before the forum got upgraded to the current platform we are using now. Content is limited to 10,000 characters so I can no longer write a book. Good for those using a cell phone to access the forums. I use a PC. My thumbs are not that good at pressing characters on a touchscreen to type.
https://boogieforum.com/threads/mark-v-owner-review-of-jp-2c-multi-page-post.72387/
Here is my discussion on the STR448 and then STR415. I was looking for the thread on the STR443 but could not find it. I did see I tired the STR440 yellows since I was having intermittent popping issues with the grey bias STR440 tubes. I have not had that popping issue since I abandoned the STR440 for the better alternatives. As for the STR445 commentary, that may be buried in the Mark VII threads.
https://boogieforum.com/threads/jp2c-power-tube-change-to-something-new-but-sounds-familiar.87207/
With the proper power tubes in the JP2C (lets assume there is nothing wrong with your amp at the moment) there is nothing that comes close to the overall tone density. We are talking a thick sinister voice and a grind that to me sounds heavenly along with the single note definition, so the content does not get lost in soup like it did with the Mark VII at gig level. It all boils down to power amp type Class A/B vs Simul-Class and the bias of the power tubes. The only other amp I have in my collection that has some tone density and yet retains the note detail would be the Badlander 100W. Not as much saturated gain as the JP2C or Mark VII but the output characteristics are quite similar to the JP. It is a different amp on its own, so the type of settings on the JP you can dial in will not work on the Bad. The max gain setting with the treble up and the mid, bass dialed way down or completely out works really good with the Mark VII, the JP2C is similar but the BAD cannot do it.
Power tubes are key to feeling connected to the amp. The JP2C with the STR440 tubes, I felt connected to it. That was lost with the STR443 tubes. Laid back per say? The amp lost its mojo in all respects. It sounded ok but not all that spectacular. Now with the STR415, holy crap, do they rip, but that is not the total picture, I feel connected to the amp more so with those power tubes. The STR445 or STR448 were very similar in that regard. Off topic, RA100, that amp is best served with SED =C= EL34 (Mesa STR442). You get that 3D effect and you feel connected to the amp. With the stock STR447 or even the STR450 (NOS Siemens EL34) the amp is too forward and not as fun to play through. The BAD with the stock tubes (STR447) is just perfect, balanced and easy to bond with. Not as much saturated gain like a Mark amp can be. I tend to dig into the amp to discover what tubes work and don't work. Sure, it is based on my opinion. Sure, it is subjective. Last note on the JP2C, if you decide to buy the amp, try to find some alternate power tubes, STR440 (yellow, green, gray). STR448 grey, or the STR445 in green. You may be surprised how much you are missing out. For now see if the gain channels are in working order, if not replace the two preamp tubes and go from that point. Still no go, I would be pointing at the power tubes. Some may like the STR443, I found them to be a bit lacking and took away from what I enjoyed with the JP2C amp.
I assume it could be the power tubes but lets hold off on that for the time being. Perhaps this weekend I can get the JP2C out of its storage area and swap out the STR415 with the STR443. It has been a year or longer since I had the STR443 tubes in the amp.
To start off, what speaker cabinet to you have? 8 ohm or 16 ohm? I ask this as I have also found the JP2C, even though it can support a 16 ohm cab, it is not at its prime. If you had two 16 ohm cabs and if they have an input/output jack on them, you can connect the two cabs together and end up with 8 ohms. That is the ideal impedance for just about every Mesa. They sing best with the 8 ohm loads. When using two 8 ohm cabs plugged into each of the 4 ohm jacks, that will cut some treble down a bit but that would be the secondary main use for running two 8 ohm 412 cabs or 212 cabs, or 112 cabs with 8 ohm impedances. The last question is: what is the wattage of the cab(s)? Having at least 120W capacity will be fine. Ok, lets say you had two 50W 112 cabs, When you connect them to the amp using the two 4 ohm jacks you will have a total power of 100W for the load. Sure you can run the amp at 60W but that seems to take away some of its mean power and sound less desirable. The manual suggests when using 60W, to compensate or correct for the loading, they recommend to connect an 8 ohm speaker to the 4 ohm jack. Some sort of miss match thing. I always run at 100W.
I never made use of the cab-clone or headphones. So I cannot relate to that aspect of the amp.
So, if you have a guitar speaker cab rated for 100W+ and you can run the amp at a decent volume level, then great.
How to tell if the V3 or V4 tubes are compromised: Set all controls to noon including the channel master volumes. Leave the gain at 9am. Compare each channel. What we want to do is listen to the difference in volume. Then increase the gain setting to the next level at 10am, and so on. No need to be exact here, just adjust gain gradually. Push in the gain and presence controls if you have them pulled out. Turn off shred mode if you have that set. No effects in the loop. Reverb, you and use it or not.
What you may hear is the clean will be crisp and bold, CH2 will have a slight volume drop and CH3 may even exhibit that as well. That is the difference between uncompressed non-distorted signal and a clipped, compressed signal. As the gain goes up on the lead channels, the volume will level out but the drive characteristic will change dramatically.
If the lead channels CH2 and CH3 do not have the volume level close to the clean channel, yeah, you have a preamp tube issue with V3 or V4. It if made no difference and the two lead channels are muffed, no drive, no volume and it still sounds like you are only pushing 1W vs 100W that would indicate one of the tubes is not working properly or something is up with the circuit inside the amp that is either stuck in a strobe mute issue. If that was the case, you would not be able to hear it except for a faint sound with all of the controls maxed out.
I wrote the above with the thought of the STR443 tubes in mind. At bedroom levels, 100W at a 9am setting on the master volumes it will be all bass, barely any midrange or treble. Those tubes seem to have a different gain sensitivity for low level signals. For those tubes to bloom to full spectrum, you need a stronger signal level to work those tubes. Those particular tubes cut midrange and shore off the top end. When it comes to the STR445, STR448, or if you can afford them once you get a resource the STR415 will have a decent and balanced spectrum of sound at low signal levels and at noon and beyond which is more gig level territory. Also, they will be much louder so no need to go past noon.
When I first got the JP2C I was ecstatic. Not because it was a JP2C, but because it was a better amp than the Mark V90 despite it only having three modes, clean, crunch and more crunch.
There are some very long posts in that. I used word to create the text as I found getting interrupted every 15 seconds with adds was annoying. That was before the forum got upgraded to the current platform we are using now. Content is limited to 10,000 characters so I can no longer write a book. Good for those using a cell phone to access the forums. I use a PC. My thumbs are not that good at pressing characters on a touchscreen to type.
https://boogieforum.com/threads/mark-v-owner-review-of-jp-2c-multi-page-post.72387/
Here is my discussion on the STR448 and then STR415. I was looking for the thread on the STR443 but could not find it. I did see I tired the STR440 yellows since I was having intermittent popping issues with the grey bias STR440 tubes. I have not had that popping issue since I abandoned the STR440 for the better alternatives. As for the STR445 commentary, that may be buried in the Mark VII threads.
https://boogieforum.com/threads/jp2c-power-tube-change-to-something-new-but-sounds-familiar.87207/
With the proper power tubes in the JP2C (lets assume there is nothing wrong with your amp at the moment) there is nothing that comes close to the overall tone density. We are talking a thick sinister voice and a grind that to me sounds heavenly along with the single note definition, so the content does not get lost in soup like it did with the Mark VII at gig level. It all boils down to power amp type Class A/B vs Simul-Class and the bias of the power tubes. The only other amp I have in my collection that has some tone density and yet retains the note detail would be the Badlander 100W. Not as much saturated gain as the JP2C or Mark VII but the output characteristics are quite similar to the JP. It is a different amp on its own, so the type of settings on the JP you can dial in will not work on the Bad. The max gain setting with the treble up and the mid, bass dialed way down or completely out works really good with the Mark VII, the JP2C is similar but the BAD cannot do it.
Power tubes are key to feeling connected to the amp. The JP2C with the STR440 tubes, I felt connected to it. That was lost with the STR443 tubes. Laid back per say? The amp lost its mojo in all respects. It sounded ok but not all that spectacular. Now with the STR415, holy crap, do they rip, but that is not the total picture, I feel connected to the amp more so with those power tubes. The STR445 or STR448 were very similar in that regard. Off topic, RA100, that amp is best served with SED =C= EL34 (Mesa STR442). You get that 3D effect and you feel connected to the amp. With the stock STR447 or even the STR450 (NOS Siemens EL34) the amp is too forward and not as fun to play through. The BAD with the stock tubes (STR447) is just perfect, balanced and easy to bond with. Not as much saturated gain like a Mark amp can be. I tend to dig into the amp to discover what tubes work and don't work. Sure, it is based on my opinion. Sure, it is subjective. Last note on the JP2C, if you decide to buy the amp, try to find some alternate power tubes, STR440 (yellow, green, gray). STR448 grey, or the STR445 in green. You may be surprised how much you are missing out. For now see if the gain channels are in working order, if not replace the two preamp tubes and go from that point. Still no go, I would be pointing at the power tubes. Some may like the STR443, I found them to be a bit lacking and took away from what I enjoyed with the JP2C amp.
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@bandit2013
Man... I appreciate all of it. Just because I have experience with amps (too much LOL!), doesn't mean I have a lot of experience with these amps or this flavor of amps. The Mark flavor, in particular, is different. Not just from other amps in the Mesa lineup, but other amps... period LOL! My whole thing was trying to make the modded-Plexi thing work for years upon years until I realized that was what wasn't working for me. That single-note clang with a modded Plexi type amp is cool, but that and the crunch aren't enough for me. If I get a cool sound with my H/S guitars, my Tele and Strat-style guitars suffer. If they sound good, everything else suffers. Wash, rise, repeat.
I appreciate the effort in experimenting... trust me. I know you don't have to do all that, even as fun as it is. I do want one of these, regardless, and can wait if need be. The Badlander seems like a cool amp, I just don't know if it can do enough for me.
Re: cabs. I have a few different cabs I've tried out, all with the same result with this amp. I have two Bogner OS 2x12's, both 8ohm. One has two V30's, the other has a V30 and a 65-watt Creamback (M). I have a small 8ohm Recto 1x12 with a V30 and a 1x12 Epi Valve Jr cab with an old 16ohm Classic Lead 80. That cab, I typically only use with my modded Valve Jr. They're a family LOL! Band-wise, I typically use the Bogners. There is a sensitivity difference between the V30 and the CB65, but that disappears once you get a feet away from the cab. It's a cool mix.
Edit: My drummer has one of those older metal-panel Mesa-Boogie 4x12's that sounds fantastic both with his old master-volume JMP and my Shiva, but I don't know what speakers it has. I'm ***/u/ming it's stock, just don't know what they are.
I've never tried the cab clone or headphone output, either, but may. That's a good point.
Reverb seemed to work fine, as did shred mode. The tone controls and EQ did make a difference... which is why I'm thinking it's not tubes after the literal dozens of swaps I did among nine preamp tubes (did not touch the PI). The gain level past noon on either channel made little difference at all. The gain pull boost... very little, although I understand it's really only "one more."
I swapped every tube, multiple times and multiple brands, except the PI. The JJ's that were in it, the stock Mesas, two ARS Chinese tubes I had a Ruby 12AX7AC7+ (or whatever it's called) and another regular AC7. Nothing made a blessed difference at all and, when I turned it up, I realized the clean channel also had hiss and some pop. It sounded stronger and louder, but still hissed. There is something wrong with the amp itself, I believe.
My Shiva had those SED EL34's, so I'm wickedly familiar with those. When they went, were no longer made and I had to replace with with JJ E34L's (the only tube at that time that could handle the plate voltage of the Shiva), my tone disappeared. The old SED's sounded better, so I put those right back in. There is a Chinese EL34 from Ruby that has that ability and sounds ALMOST like the SED's... or at least close enough in the Shiva. So I get how they can make a big difference, even if not being overdriven.
Who makes the STR440's or (after reading the threads you gave me) the STR448's? I may get a set of them to try and keep them as a backup if they don't make any difference. I know the glow from the tubes seems fine, but don't know if that really matters in the end.
Nick
Man... I appreciate all of it. Just because I have experience with amps (too much LOL!), doesn't mean I have a lot of experience with these amps or this flavor of amps. The Mark flavor, in particular, is different. Not just from other amps in the Mesa lineup, but other amps... period LOL! My whole thing was trying to make the modded-Plexi thing work for years upon years until I realized that was what wasn't working for me. That single-note clang with a modded Plexi type amp is cool, but that and the crunch aren't enough for me. If I get a cool sound with my H/S guitars, my Tele and Strat-style guitars suffer. If they sound good, everything else suffers. Wash, rise, repeat.
I appreciate the effort in experimenting... trust me. I know you don't have to do all that, even as fun as it is. I do want one of these, regardless, and can wait if need be. The Badlander seems like a cool amp, I just don't know if it can do enough for me.
Re: cabs. I have a few different cabs I've tried out, all with the same result with this amp. I have two Bogner OS 2x12's, both 8ohm. One has two V30's, the other has a V30 and a 65-watt Creamback (M). I have a small 8ohm Recto 1x12 with a V30 and a 1x12 Epi Valve Jr cab with an old 16ohm Classic Lead 80. That cab, I typically only use with my modded Valve Jr. They're a family LOL! Band-wise, I typically use the Bogners. There is a sensitivity difference between the V30 and the CB65, but that disappears once you get a feet away from the cab. It's a cool mix.
Edit: My drummer has one of those older metal-panel Mesa-Boogie 4x12's that sounds fantastic both with his old master-volume JMP and my Shiva, but I don't know what speakers it has. I'm ***/u/ming it's stock, just don't know what they are.
I've never tried the cab clone or headphone output, either, but may. That's a good point.
Reverb seemed to work fine, as did shred mode. The tone controls and EQ did make a difference... which is why I'm thinking it's not tubes after the literal dozens of swaps I did among nine preamp tubes (did not touch the PI). The gain level past noon on either channel made little difference at all. The gain pull boost... very little, although I understand it's really only "one more."
I swapped every tube, multiple times and multiple brands, except the PI. The JJ's that were in it, the stock Mesas, two ARS Chinese tubes I had a Ruby 12AX7AC7+ (or whatever it's called) and another regular AC7. Nothing made a blessed difference at all and, when I turned it up, I realized the clean channel also had hiss and some pop. It sounded stronger and louder, but still hissed. There is something wrong with the amp itself, I believe.
My Shiva had those SED EL34's, so I'm wickedly familiar with those. When they went, were no longer made and I had to replace with with JJ E34L's (the only tube at that time that could handle the plate voltage of the Shiva), my tone disappeared. The old SED's sounded better, so I put those right back in. There is a Chinese EL34 from Ruby that has that ability and sounds ALMOST like the SED's... or at least close enough in the Shiva. So I get how they can make a big difference, even if not being overdriven.
Who makes the STR440's or (after reading the threads you gave me) the STR448's? I may get a set of them to try and keep them as a backup if they don't make any difference. I know the glow from the tubes seems fine, but don't know if that really matters in the end.
Nick
- Joined
- May 12, 2024
- Messages
- 68
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What it's worth, I got the ok to get a quartet of TAD 6L6GCM STR's to try out. If they work... purchase price removed from the amp. If not, he'll still reimburse me for them.
STR440 tubes are Shuguang 6L6GC. Ruby has them labeled as 6L6GCMSTR. Ruby is just a tube broker, they do not make the tubes. Some sort of trade name for Shuguang but they sell other tubes including JJ.
The STR448 are made by PSVANE for TubeAmpDoctor based on their specifications. The goal was to have a tube similar to the original Sylvania tube referenced as the STR415. PSVANE was founded by many of the engineers that worked for Shuguang tube factory after it was forced to shut down. I looked at some of the information from the PSVANE website. They do not list the red base as that is a special tube request by TAD so they own the proprietary construction of the tube.
STR445 is made by JJ tubes. 6L6GC.
I would say in most cases, the STR440, STR448 and STR445 were focused on recreating the STR415. Only the STR440 had a single getter, the other two use a dual getter like the STR415. The getter structure does nothing after the getter flash is deposited onto the glass surface. Since it is a structure that sticks out at the plate potential, there could be something with it. It is just coincidental that I always found the dual getter tubes to sound better. SED =C= originally called Svetlana is also a dual getter construction. Sevetlana is a trade name that some NY business man bought the rights to the tradename Svetlana. That was the person who formed New Sensor that sells Russian tubes made by the Rflektor company. What is now called Svetlana is just an EH, Tung Sol or Mullard, lets just say it is a Sovtek tube. EH, TungSol, Mullard, Gold Lion, all just trade names. However, the Gold Lion KT77 are like no other Sovtek EL34 variants.
This discussion belongs in the tube forum... LOL.
Anyways. Just a note on the STR448, if you get a quad, make sure you specify bias color of grey "GRY". Worse case you get GRN by mistake. that will be close enough. Some places that sell the product have a memo or special note you can add text to when placing an order. I generally buy from Sweetwater and I can always follow up the order with my sales engineer to confirm the bias color was understood.
Hint, Plexi I assume is not much drive or dirt but voiced differently. Not sure if that circuit used a cold clipper or not. Then there is VOX which is a completely different circuit.
Three Mesa amps come to mind that can cover that ground. Royal Atlantic RA100, Triple Crown TC100 or TC50 and the Electra-Dyne. The ED was one that did make use of a cold clipper and tone stack driver similar to Marshall but yet is different in design. Those amps make use of a 6L6GC Simul-Class power section. I believe it has a bias switch for EL34 tubes. The Royal Atlantic, much like the ED is no longer in production. The RA is quite different as there is no cold clipper in its gain channels or any cathode follower tone stack driver. The RA needs some NOS tubes to sound really good. The TC series on the other hand are in active production status. They are different than the RA but similar at the same time.
I bring those up since I could not quite pinpoint how they sound. Marshall like, Vox like in some ways. The TC has an interesting clean channel voice. I think that is the best feature of the amp IMHO. Then there is a drive switch for the clean channel. Depending how you dial in the gain and channel volume you can get into that plexi territory. You can get it driving hard enough so that gain character will be on the same level as the lo gain channel. Then the Lo gain channel is a bit short in tone, I think it was intended to be that way. It is actually really decent for its characteristic. I just could not put my finger on the amp it represents. Then the Hi gain does get into the Mark sound but not quite. After I bought the TC50 then got a TC100. They are fun amps. Stock EH-EL34 Mesa branded STR447 actually sound good in this amp. At first it is a bit top end bright but they mellow out after a few weeks of use. 2 years later, I decided to get a Marshall Silver Jubilee 2555x 100W and matching cab. Not sure why I wanted it. Bam, the TC series as well as the RA series are almost a dead on recreation of the 2555x but Mesa did not use LEDs to create the distortion as was done with the Marshall. It was so close I was able to use it as a center channel with the two RA100 (one is a combo) in stereo. The odd thing about the 2555x, the tone stack follows the FX loop. RA or TC it is before the FX loop.
The TC series sound very close to that 2555x as well. I kept the TC50 after getting the TC100 as I can run them in stereo and link the two amps with a midi cable to control both with just one footswitch.
And now for something completely different but yet has some really interesting characteristics. The Badlander. The clean channel, ok it is not a crystal clean with chimney tones like one could get from the Mark V90. It is a bit warm and mellow, not as warm and low end as the TC or RA. It actually sounds good to me. Once you push up the gain on the clean mode, it begins to bite, and grind. Go all the way up, oh yeah, that is classic Marshall tone. Switch the power mode from full power to variac power and it just gets even better. After I got the first one and compared it to the JP2C I was really impressed who similar they are even though the JP is 6L6GC (only) and the BAD was driving EL34 (can use 6L6 too). Similar in note definition, similar in gain saturation and grind. JP2C gets more darker and that is where the tone density comes from. It was a phrase to describe it.
The Badlander took over the role of the RA100 in a stereo setup. This is a more natural organic sounding gain like the RA and JP2C. Meaning there is some dynamics to it such that you can clean up the grind with a roll back on the guitar volume knob. The input sensitivity is a bit different compared to the JP2C or even the Mark VII.
Crunch mode is almost Recto but not swamped in the low end. There is no cold clipper circuit with that 39k cathode resistor. However, it does have a cathode follower tone stack driver like the Recto amps and a cathode follower FX driver. Not thin sounding like the TC lo gain, it is more of a 2203/2204 hot rodded Marshall characteristic. Crush mode, is even heavier and much closer to the JP2C gain characteristic. Not as deep in tone density, but the note definition is apparently impressive. My curiosity got the best of me, so I had to poke around the innards to find if there were any cathode follower circuits, and if it had a cold clipper. Based on the plate and cathode resistor measurements, I soon realized what I was seeing. This is a Mark lead drive circuit but with a post gain tone stack driver (dc coupled cathode follower). This is the second BAD100 I got. Then Mesa announced the Mark VII. Those bastards. Had to have that too.
So I got one. And eventually succumbed to my need to run stereo and bought a second one.
Interesting design, There are some similarities between the Mark VII and the Badlander. They both make use of the traditional Mark Lead drive circuit that goes back to the IIC+. The layout is just different. Excluding where the tone stack driver is or how it is managed, the crunch on both amps are very similar as are the crush and VII mode. In either case, the tone stack driver is post gain. I did email Mesa on where the tone stack sits in the crunch and VII modes. It is post gain. For CH3, it is pre-gain like a standard Mark or the JP2C. So I created a graphic illustrating the gain circuits from the tube task chart in the manuals.
This graphic includes the JP2C. (it is the complete makeup of the gain circuits for all of CH3 on the Mark VII for the IIB mode).
So now I have become a true Mesa nut. Probably not as knowledgeable as some that are involved in the vintage Mesas. I am still learning things. I just want to understand how they differ, where if any cathode follower circuits may be so I do not end up using the wrong tube type in those positions when I decide to tube roll an amp.
The Mark VII, I swapped the faceplate on the one Mark VII with the one I bought for the JP2C as I had its original black faceplate. The one with the JP2C badge is the first Mark VII I bought. The second one has the newer transformers made by Schumacker I assume. I would say the second Badlander 100 also has the different transformers. That did not change any characteristics as they same basically the same. I am still working out the full quad stereo thing with the two badlanders and the two Mark VII. What works well is the crunch on both amps are in phase, crunch is also in phase with the IIB. Crush and clean are in phase with the clean modes and IIC, IV and VII modes.
I think I am becoming a narcissist. Sorry. I value other's opinions. Do not mean to take over the thread. I only provided this information based on some of your questions in the chain of communications. I do tend to go overboard when it comes to tube talk and amp discussions. My bad.
The STR448 are made by PSVANE for TubeAmpDoctor based on their specifications. The goal was to have a tube similar to the original Sylvania tube referenced as the STR415. PSVANE was founded by many of the engineers that worked for Shuguang tube factory after it was forced to shut down. I looked at some of the information from the PSVANE website. They do not list the red base as that is a special tube request by TAD so they own the proprietary construction of the tube.
STR445 is made by JJ tubes. 6L6GC.
I would say in most cases, the STR440, STR448 and STR445 were focused on recreating the STR415. Only the STR440 had a single getter, the other two use a dual getter like the STR415. The getter structure does nothing after the getter flash is deposited onto the glass surface. Since it is a structure that sticks out at the plate potential, there could be something with it. It is just coincidental that I always found the dual getter tubes to sound better. SED =C= originally called Svetlana is also a dual getter construction. Sevetlana is a trade name that some NY business man bought the rights to the tradename Svetlana. That was the person who formed New Sensor that sells Russian tubes made by the Rflektor company. What is now called Svetlana is just an EH, Tung Sol or Mullard, lets just say it is a Sovtek tube. EH, TungSol, Mullard, Gold Lion, all just trade names. However, the Gold Lion KT77 are like no other Sovtek EL34 variants.
This discussion belongs in the tube forum... LOL.
Anyways. Just a note on the STR448, if you get a quad, make sure you specify bias color of grey "GRY". Worse case you get GRN by mistake. that will be close enough. Some places that sell the product have a memo or special note you can add text to when placing an order. I generally buy from Sweetwater and I can always follow up the order with my sales engineer to confirm the bias color was understood.
Hint, Plexi I assume is not much drive or dirt but voiced differently. Not sure if that circuit used a cold clipper or not. Then there is VOX which is a completely different circuit.
Three Mesa amps come to mind that can cover that ground. Royal Atlantic RA100, Triple Crown TC100 or TC50 and the Electra-Dyne. The ED was one that did make use of a cold clipper and tone stack driver similar to Marshall but yet is different in design. Those amps make use of a 6L6GC Simul-Class power section. I believe it has a bias switch for EL34 tubes. The Royal Atlantic, much like the ED is no longer in production. The RA is quite different as there is no cold clipper in its gain channels or any cathode follower tone stack driver. The RA needs some NOS tubes to sound really good. The TC series on the other hand are in active production status. They are different than the RA but similar at the same time.
I bring those up since I could not quite pinpoint how they sound. Marshall like, Vox like in some ways. The TC has an interesting clean channel voice. I think that is the best feature of the amp IMHO. Then there is a drive switch for the clean channel. Depending how you dial in the gain and channel volume you can get into that plexi territory. You can get it driving hard enough so that gain character will be on the same level as the lo gain channel. Then the Lo gain channel is a bit short in tone, I think it was intended to be that way. It is actually really decent for its characteristic. I just could not put my finger on the amp it represents. Then the Hi gain does get into the Mark sound but not quite. After I bought the TC50 then got a TC100. They are fun amps. Stock EH-EL34 Mesa branded STR447 actually sound good in this amp. At first it is a bit top end bright but they mellow out after a few weeks of use. 2 years later, I decided to get a Marshall Silver Jubilee 2555x 100W and matching cab. Not sure why I wanted it. Bam, the TC series as well as the RA series are almost a dead on recreation of the 2555x but Mesa did not use LEDs to create the distortion as was done with the Marshall. It was so close I was able to use it as a center channel with the two RA100 (one is a combo) in stereo. The odd thing about the 2555x, the tone stack follows the FX loop. RA or TC it is before the FX loop.
The TC series sound very close to that 2555x as well. I kept the TC50 after getting the TC100 as I can run them in stereo and link the two amps with a midi cable to control both with just one footswitch.
And now for something completely different but yet has some really interesting characteristics. The Badlander. The clean channel, ok it is not a crystal clean with chimney tones like one could get from the Mark V90. It is a bit warm and mellow, not as warm and low end as the TC or RA. It actually sounds good to me. Once you push up the gain on the clean mode, it begins to bite, and grind. Go all the way up, oh yeah, that is classic Marshall tone. Switch the power mode from full power to variac power and it just gets even better. After I got the first one and compared it to the JP2C I was really impressed who similar they are even though the JP is 6L6GC (only) and the BAD was driving EL34 (can use 6L6 too). Similar in note definition, similar in gain saturation and grind. JP2C gets more darker and that is where the tone density comes from. It was a phrase to describe it.
The Badlander took over the role of the RA100 in a stereo setup. This is a more natural organic sounding gain like the RA and JP2C. Meaning there is some dynamics to it such that you can clean up the grind with a roll back on the guitar volume knob. The input sensitivity is a bit different compared to the JP2C or even the Mark VII.
Crunch mode is almost Recto but not swamped in the low end. There is no cold clipper circuit with that 39k cathode resistor. However, it does have a cathode follower tone stack driver like the Recto amps and a cathode follower FX driver. Not thin sounding like the TC lo gain, it is more of a 2203/2204 hot rodded Marshall characteristic. Crush mode, is even heavier and much closer to the JP2C gain characteristic. Not as deep in tone density, but the note definition is apparently impressive. My curiosity got the best of me, so I had to poke around the innards to find if there were any cathode follower circuits, and if it had a cold clipper. Based on the plate and cathode resistor measurements, I soon realized what I was seeing. This is a Mark lead drive circuit but with a post gain tone stack driver (dc coupled cathode follower). This is the second BAD100 I got. Then Mesa announced the Mark VII. Those bastards. Had to have that too.
So I got one. And eventually succumbed to my need to run stereo and bought a second one.
Interesting design, There are some similarities between the Mark VII and the Badlander. They both make use of the traditional Mark Lead drive circuit that goes back to the IIC+. The layout is just different. Excluding where the tone stack driver is or how it is managed, the crunch on both amps are very similar as are the crush and VII mode. In either case, the tone stack driver is post gain. I did email Mesa on where the tone stack sits in the crunch and VII modes. It is post gain. For CH3, it is pre-gain like a standard Mark or the JP2C. So I created a graphic illustrating the gain circuits from the tube task chart in the manuals.
This graphic includes the JP2C. (it is the complete makeup of the gain circuits for all of CH3 on the Mark VII for the IIB mode).
So now I have become a true Mesa nut. Probably not as knowledgeable as some that are involved in the vintage Mesas. I am still learning things. I just want to understand how they differ, where if any cathode follower circuits may be so I do not end up using the wrong tube type in those positions when I decide to tube roll an amp.
The Mark VII, I swapped the faceplate on the one Mark VII with the one I bought for the JP2C as I had its original black faceplate. The one with the JP2C badge is the first Mark VII I bought. The second one has the newer transformers made by Schumacker I assume. I would say the second Badlander 100 also has the different transformers. That did not change any characteristics as they same basically the same. I am still working out the full quad stereo thing with the two badlanders and the two Mark VII. What works well is the crunch on both amps are in phase, crunch is also in phase with the IIB. Crush and clean are in phase with the clean modes and IIC, IV and VII modes.
I think I am becoming a narcissist. Sorry. I value other's opinions. Do not mean to take over the thread. I only provided this information based on some of your questions in the chain of communications. I do tend to go overboard when it comes to tube talk and amp discussions. My bad.
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Got it!!! I've heard some hot & cold stuff on Psvane's reliability, but not enough bad to ward me away. Hopefully we'll see some progress once the TAD 6L6GCM STR's arrive. My Shuguang preamp tubes we bought like ten years ago LOL!!! That was where I got the one to try in V1, for example. They were originally bought as surplus for my Shiva and do work really well there. I kinda' knew the story behind the origins of Psvane, just haven't had any experience with them at all.
I did tell The Tube Depot that I needed a range specifically for a JP2C and they said they made sure to put that note on the order. The one thing I noticed about the 6L6's currently in the amp: they get hot really quickly, as in I could even smell them the first time I turned on the amp. I mean... it was fast. Not sure how normal that is, I haven't owned a 6L6 amp in over 20 years.
I don't see your love of this as narcissism or just having to show what you know, you're totally geeking out on sharing ideas and that's a cool thing LOL!
I'm not sure of the nuts & bolts or circuit paths of the various amps I've used, for the most part, just the end results. I dig the Shiva the most, but it just doesn't sing with leads, the boosted gain can get a bit wooly at times and I don't want to hit it with a pedal. Seems to remove what I do love about that amp. The Helios Eclipse and Friedman BE-100 DE were both amazingly comparable, functionally. There is a stringiness to chords with a higher-gain Plexi-style amp that is cool if you want that sound... a cool clankiness to single notes, but can get weedy when you don't want it. Especially if you play single-coils and the amp is set up for a great humbucker sound or you have a H/S setup like I do in my main guitars.
Now... as lamented as it was in its day, I was able to get some really cool sounds from my Stiletto Deuce, which I got when it first came out. So many amps have come and gone, I can't remember how it compares/contrasts. The Mark series, specifically the JP2C, seemed to be that elusive amp where I could mix humbuckers and single-coils on a guitar or switch to a Strat or Tele and lose nothing. The tone wouldn't suddenly change from cool to ripping off your ears by just switching guitars and the single notes still had breadth and life even while keeping chords audible. The BE-100 and the Helios were truly Jekyll & Hyde. Get a great sound with humbuckers, then either switch to my front pickup or switch to a single-coil guitar and say to yourself "What the hell just happened?!?"
Regardless what comes of this particular amp, I do want a JP2C.
And one of John Sykes' MkIII Coliseums, just because LOL!
I think the 2555x is the odd duck, even among it's siblings and cousins. Seemed like Marshall was throwing whatever at the wall and seeing what stuck. Why is is it there are so many great modded Marshalls, but Marshall couldn't seem to follow suit?
Those circuit paths are so ridiculously similar!!! I admit, I considered the Badlander when it first came out. Don't know why, but my curiosity waned. Nothing to do with a dislike of the amp itself, or anything like that. I remember being pretty impressed when I first heard it. Just seemed like a lot of guys were slamming it with pedals, trying to get it to sound like something else and I never had the opportunity to actually play one.
I was wondering what was going on with your setup... the "JP2C" only having one graphic EQ LOL!!! How well do those all play together?
I did tell The Tube Depot that I needed a range specifically for a JP2C and they said they made sure to put that note on the order. The one thing I noticed about the 6L6's currently in the amp: they get hot really quickly, as in I could even smell them the first time I turned on the amp. I mean... it was fast. Not sure how normal that is, I haven't owned a 6L6 amp in over 20 years.
I don't see your love of this as narcissism or just having to show what you know, you're totally geeking out on sharing ideas and that's a cool thing LOL!
I'm not sure of the nuts & bolts or circuit paths of the various amps I've used, for the most part, just the end results. I dig the Shiva the most, but it just doesn't sing with leads, the boosted gain can get a bit wooly at times and I don't want to hit it with a pedal. Seems to remove what I do love about that amp. The Helios Eclipse and Friedman BE-100 DE were both amazingly comparable, functionally. There is a stringiness to chords with a higher-gain Plexi-style amp that is cool if you want that sound... a cool clankiness to single notes, but can get weedy when you don't want it. Especially if you play single-coils and the amp is set up for a great humbucker sound or you have a H/S setup like I do in my main guitars.
Now... as lamented as it was in its day, I was able to get some really cool sounds from my Stiletto Deuce, which I got when it first came out. So many amps have come and gone, I can't remember how it compares/contrasts. The Mark series, specifically the JP2C, seemed to be that elusive amp where I could mix humbuckers and single-coils on a guitar or switch to a Strat or Tele and lose nothing. The tone wouldn't suddenly change from cool to ripping off your ears by just switching guitars and the single notes still had breadth and life even while keeping chords audible. The BE-100 and the Helios were truly Jekyll & Hyde. Get a great sound with humbuckers, then either switch to my front pickup or switch to a single-coil guitar and say to yourself "What the hell just happened?!?"
Regardless what comes of this particular amp, I do want a JP2C.
And one of John Sykes' MkIII Coliseums, just because LOL!
I think the 2555x is the odd duck, even among it's siblings and cousins. Seemed like Marshall was throwing whatever at the wall and seeing what stuck. Why is is it there are so many great modded Marshalls, but Marshall couldn't seem to follow suit?
Those circuit paths are so ridiculously similar!!! I admit, I considered the Badlander when it first came out. Don't know why, but my curiosity waned. Nothing to do with a dislike of the amp itself, or anything like that. I remember being pretty impressed when I first heard it. Just seemed like a lot of guys were slamming it with pedals, trying to get it to sound like something else and I never had the opportunity to actually play one.
I was wondering what was going on with your setup... the "JP2C" only having one graphic EQ LOL!!! How well do those all play together?
With any of my amps I run most of the time. There was one amp that stood out from the rest in terms of making any pickup sound great, that is the JP2C. So you are on the right track with that. I have a guitar that has an FR ghost bridge, It is that version with the piezo pickups in each saddle. It takes the impulse signals from that to a module that converts it into an acoustic guitar sound. That sort of does not do well with most amps but with the JP2C it sounds really good, even under heavy gain. I have a Dave Murray Strat I converted with Zexcoil pickups. Sounds epic. The Warmoth I built with the Zexcoil legacy pickups and that rocks the house. Ok, the zexcoil pickups are not your standard single coil winding, there are six coils involved. And they are sort of wired as a humbucker but not in a traditional sense.
I first tried the EMG David Gilmore set, had to swap the parts from the pickguard in the set to the one I had made for the Warmoth. The neck needed some TLC as the SS fret wire was rough. That was fun. The EMG were a bust. They were just ok. I wanted more of a dynamic characteristic than with the active stuff.
I will keep it short. Went from EMG to the Fluence Strat pickups (ok with the JP2C but sounded like total dog poo with the TC, that was ice pick heaven, dang pickup set should come with a warning label in addition to the CA prop 65 cancer warning. More like "warning: these pickups are only suitable for use with a clean amp, do not use with high gain or you will scramble your brain with high frequency ice pick tones" Tried some other EMG pickups that were a bit better and gave up. Hmm, what were those exotic looking pickups again, ah, Zexcoil. Sounds like a strat when you back off guitar volume and goes into full PAF mode when you roll the volume up on the guitar.
I am rather lazy when it comes to dialing in my amps. I just set it and forget it. So, change in guitar from HSS, SSS, HSH, or what ever, it better be good. The JP2C just works.
Regardless of what many say about this amp or that amp, blah, blah, blah. Heck, you can ignore my opinions as well. The Badlander is very easy to use, it sound really good. It is what we mostly use when the band is together. Not thin, or weak and its voice and character stands out in the mix. There was one time I had invited another coworker over who plays drums so I had the chance to play guitar and decided to run the Mark VII. I could not compete with the Badlander. I was either too loud and had to roll back on the guitar and it cleaned up too much. I had tried to drop the power to 45W and that did not work either. The way the other guitar player dialed in the Badlander, it was grinding away but at a lower volume level with the power at 100W. I had to get the other Badlander fired up to have a good blend in the mix. Hard to explain. the Badlander is one decent amp. You really have to play through one to find out. Videos or recordings do not do much justice to this amp. This one video does a good job on exploring the Badlander as it is not all Djent or heavy metal playing. Those that hate the amp, probably want more of the MWDR. That it is not. I would not necessarily call it a Rectifier, it is more of a hybrid mark + recto. For me, it is a favorite platform. Do I boost it? No. Do I run effects, you bet I do. Strymon BigSky and that is it.
Back to the main topic, The JP2C sort of falls into a class of its own. Not exactly a vintage Mark IIC+ but close enough. The Mark VII gets close but lacks the tone density. I bought this pair of Mesa 410 cabs. What? yeah, thought I would give them a try. So far, the only amp that can push those and sound really good is the JP2C. Only one 410 is needed, the second one was overkill. I personally like the Vertical 212 or the standard 412 but the 410 was more of a novelty thing to try.
The JP2C has two GEQs. the one in the image is a Mark VII where I swapped out the all black faceplate for the black/cream faceplate I bought for the JP2C. I have that OCD thing, if the cab and amp do not match it is sort of hard to not see it.
This is the JP2C with the faceplate I had mesa make for it. It had all of the badges on it.
I kept the original black jute face plate. This is what my JP2C looks like now.
Since the head shell is basically the same size as the Mark VII. The faceplate from one amp will fit the other. So here is what the first Mark VII looked like before swapping the face plates.
After the swap. It has the JP2C badge on the lower right corner. No point to remove it.
Depends on use of flash or not, the colors appear different in the pictures.
Since I wanted that black/cream jute I had to wait for the Mark VII to become available with that option. Did not feel like waiting 8 months so I bought the basic black. If I did not like the amp, I would sell it off. But it grew on me quicker than I expected it too. I tried to run the Mark VII and JP2C in stereo. It was ok. They are slightly different in the FX levels so one amp had more influence over the other. Also, the modes for crunch, and IIB were out of phase with the three channels of the JP2C. Even so, the combination of the JP2C, Mark VII in IV mode and the two Badlanders on the outer ends just sounded Incredible. That was probably the first time I actually liked the end result of two pairs of amps running in stereo. Had the idea to check inventory to see if the Mark VII was available with the black and cream jute faceplate. Yep. so I got it.
I first tried the EMG David Gilmore set, had to swap the parts from the pickguard in the set to the one I had made for the Warmoth. The neck needed some TLC as the SS fret wire was rough. That was fun. The EMG were a bust. They were just ok. I wanted more of a dynamic characteristic than with the active stuff.
I will keep it short. Went from EMG to the Fluence Strat pickups (ok with the JP2C but sounded like total dog poo with the TC, that was ice pick heaven, dang pickup set should come with a warning label in addition to the CA prop 65 cancer warning. More like "warning: these pickups are only suitable for use with a clean amp, do not use with high gain or you will scramble your brain with high frequency ice pick tones" Tried some other EMG pickups that were a bit better and gave up. Hmm, what were those exotic looking pickups again, ah, Zexcoil. Sounds like a strat when you back off guitar volume and goes into full PAF mode when you roll the volume up on the guitar.
I am rather lazy when it comes to dialing in my amps. I just set it and forget it. So, change in guitar from HSS, SSS, HSH, or what ever, it better be good. The JP2C just works.
Regardless of what many say about this amp or that amp, blah, blah, blah. Heck, you can ignore my opinions as well. The Badlander is very easy to use, it sound really good. It is what we mostly use when the band is together. Not thin, or weak and its voice and character stands out in the mix. There was one time I had invited another coworker over who plays drums so I had the chance to play guitar and decided to run the Mark VII. I could not compete with the Badlander. I was either too loud and had to roll back on the guitar and it cleaned up too much. I had tried to drop the power to 45W and that did not work either. The way the other guitar player dialed in the Badlander, it was grinding away but at a lower volume level with the power at 100W. I had to get the other Badlander fired up to have a good blend in the mix. Hard to explain. the Badlander is one decent amp. You really have to play through one to find out. Videos or recordings do not do much justice to this amp. This one video does a good job on exploring the Badlander as it is not all Djent or heavy metal playing. Those that hate the amp, probably want more of the MWDR. That it is not. I would not necessarily call it a Rectifier, it is more of a hybrid mark + recto. For me, it is a favorite platform. Do I boost it? No. Do I run effects, you bet I do. Strymon BigSky and that is it.
Back to the main topic, The JP2C sort of falls into a class of its own. Not exactly a vintage Mark IIC+ but close enough. The Mark VII gets close but lacks the tone density. I bought this pair of Mesa 410 cabs. What? yeah, thought I would give them a try. So far, the only amp that can push those and sound really good is the JP2C. Only one 410 is needed, the second one was overkill. I personally like the Vertical 212 or the standard 412 but the 410 was more of a novelty thing to try.
The JP2C has two GEQs. the one in the image is a Mark VII where I swapped out the all black faceplate for the black/cream faceplate I bought for the JP2C. I have that OCD thing, if the cab and amp do not match it is sort of hard to not see it.
This is the JP2C with the faceplate I had mesa make for it. It had all of the badges on it.
I kept the original black jute face plate. This is what my JP2C looks like now.
Since the head shell is basically the same size as the Mark VII. The faceplate from one amp will fit the other. So here is what the first Mark VII looked like before swapping the face plates.
After the swap. It has the JP2C badge on the lower right corner. No point to remove it.
Depends on use of flash or not, the colors appear different in the pictures.
Since I wanted that black/cream jute I had to wait for the Mark VII to become available with that option. Did not feel like waiting 8 months so I bought the basic black. If I did not like the amp, I would sell it off. But it grew on me quicker than I expected it too. I tried to run the Mark VII and JP2C in stereo. It was ok. They are slightly different in the FX levels so one amp had more influence over the other. Also, the modes for crunch, and IIB were out of phase with the three channels of the JP2C. Even so, the combination of the JP2C, Mark VII in IV mode and the two Badlanders on the outer ends just sounded Incredible. That was probably the first time I actually liked the end result of two pairs of amps running in stereo. Had the idea to check inventory to see if the Mark VII was available with the black and cream jute faceplate. Yep. so I got it.
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Yeah, about the STR448, they are much longer than the typical 6L6. They are tricky to get in but should be manageable without having to remove the amp chassis. I was able to get them into the JP2C. It is hard to see how much clearance there is in this picture. I had to install the tubes at an angle and carefully line up the post key and alight the pins to the holes in the socket. They were too tall to go straight in.
To be honest, I had no interests in the JP2C until after watching this video 7 years ago. I do not speak or understand German, but I can appreciate how the amp sounds. I would assume that is with the STR440 tubes in the amp. The STR443 were not out back then. Those sort of surfaced in 2019.
And to confirm, my JP2C with the STR440 tubes sounded like this video.
STR415 or the STR448, it will have a bit more aggressive voice to it.
To be honest, I had no interests in the JP2C until after watching this video 7 years ago. I do not speak or understand German, but I can appreciate how the amp sounds. I would assume that is with the STR440 tubes in the amp. The STR443 were not out back then. Those sort of surfaced in 2019.
And to confirm, my JP2C with the STR440 tubes sounded like this video.
STR415 or the STR448, it will have a bit more aggressive voice to it.
Just for smiles and grins, sh!ts and giggles as my dad would say, I got out the JP2C from its storage area. Removed the STR415 power tubes and stuffed in the STR443 grey tubes. I had to revisit this since it has been a few years since I ran the STR443 and lost interest in the amp.
I see. There is a decent amount of low gain, I had the channel master at noon. Once you get the gain knob past 10am it does not change much if at all, Maxed it out and the amp had much the same character. Pulle the gain pot, not much of a difference. Switch to CH3 and got the exact same sound. No change in saturation or anything. It did not sound bad, it just lacked the usable range of the gain control. I can see why one would think there is a preamp tube problem. I had enough of that after messing around with the amp for 30 minutes.
Next up was the STR440 grey. Totally different. Sure the amp sounded close to what it did with the STR443 but the gain control had way more effect on level of saturation. I hooked up the Mark VII and compared the IIC mode. Almost on par with each other in respect to the gain control. Those STR440 power tubes is what drew me into the amp. It is that time loss deal. Much better and why I liked the JP2C so much.
Bottom line on the STR443, they are just ok if you do not mind a limited range of gain. I believe what is going on with those tubes is the way they reduce the midrange content. Mesa's description is they have "tucked mids", lets just say it used to say that. It looks like they changed the description, I remember distinctively that the unwanted buzz, sizzle or harshness was in reference to the STR440 tubes and was in the STR443 description. : Blue text is from Mesa's current website.
The MESA® 6L6 STR-443 is a premium grade, vintage-voiced 6L6. They are beautifully balanced, offering a deep low end, controlled, tailored low-mids with a pleasing sparkle and chime on the top-end that provides a pleasing clarity. High quality structural integrity provides consistent, reliable performance, making this tube a great choice in any 6L6 based amp, and for any style of music.
Never mind, I must have lost my mind, the "tucked mids" is the description of the STR441 tube. I could have sworn they changed it. That description was closer to the STR441. I had to look twice at it too. the STR441 were classified as the vintage sounding tube. I am not having a brain fart. Have I lost any sense of reality?
The MESA® 6L6 STR 441 is an exceptional vintage-voiced 6L6 with superb low end, neatly tucked mids and an exceptionally smooth, tapered top-end for a warmer, richer and sweeter tone. They help provide the Treble and Presence Controls with an extended usable range without adding unwanted, detached “buzz”, “sizzle” or harshness.
I must be loosing my mind. I would swear that the STR441 was the description for the STR443 tube, and vise versa. Also they used to have listed what amp they were perfect with. STR441 was recommended for the Mark V90 and the STR443 was stated to be the current tube used in the JP2C.
The STR441 does sound good in the Mark V90 but becomes a lame duck in the JP2C.
The MESA® 6L6 STR-448 is a premium grade 6L6 with a balanced voice and plenty of punch and headroom. They produce rich low end, tight, full midrange and pleasing top end that is present where it counts, yet also warm and cohesive. Structurally sound and high quality, these tubes are consistent and reliable, making them a great choice for any 6L6-based amp and applicable to most any style of music.
So far from the first two tubes, STR443 (disappointing) to the STR440 (hell-of-a-good tube when compared to the STR443), I believe the tubes should have cooled down enough to remove them by now. Time to work the STR448 tube in. While that subject is current. There is one thing I noticed with the STR448 tube. They have the same plate design as the STR440. Not sure about the innards I cannot see and have no plans on cutting the glass off of a tube unless it was dead.
OK, Got to the STR448 grey. They drop right in if you get the key and pins where they need to be but can be tricky as they are longer. Tone-wise, they are balanced. So where did I push the gain, all the way and had to find a guitar that did not have hot pickups to prevent the feedback. Had the same issue with the STR415 or STR440 to be honest. Also had to drop out the bass and adjust midrange down a bit. I normally run the gain around 11am as that is plenty for my needs. Actually it was interesting to find the limit how low I can adjust the gain and where it picks back up. Almost dialed all the way out. 7am if that is the stop point, then 8am was where it had as much gain as the amp when I had the STR443. 9am it really picks up and past that it keeps going. At noon it begins to compress a bit as it saturates the power tubes. These are the closest to the STR415 as I said many times before. With the STR448 tubes and the gain knobs pushed in, at the 11am gain setting, the JP2C has already surpassed the Mark VII in IIC mode. Not the same amp though as there are many differences between the two other than the 7 usable configurations.
I was using a Charvel guitar that had a trembucker sized JB in the bridge (MJ San Dimas HSS if you want to know what it was). It is a high output pickup. The other guitar I had out was another MJ San Dimas but the HSH format. I was hoping to grab the case with the DK24 as that has a full shred in the bridge and is not as much high output compared to the JB. Instead I grabbed the So-Cal HSS that has the SD distortion pickup. Not as robust as the JB but much higher signal strength than the Full shred. I played with both for a while. Think I like the JB bridge more with the JP2C.
So, I learned something today. This was the first time I noticed that the gain control had no effect to a point when using the STR443 tubes. That is so weird. That was with the channel volume set to noon. I had to back it off some with the other tubes as it was getting on the loud side. I did not change any preamp tubes as I am lazy. No need as it was all to deal with the power tubes.
The STR440 had a bit more hair on it, fizzy or fuzzy if that helps. They still sounded great compared to the STR443. Note that I do not have more than 4 -5 hours of use on those STR443. I just could not bond with them.
I hope those TAD tubes fix your issue. If they are the same tube Mesa has branded as the STR448 then you will be in good shape (assuming they fall into that grey bias color range). Reds are way too weak for the amp as they have too much headroom and no onset of distortion.
I see. There is a decent amount of low gain, I had the channel master at noon. Once you get the gain knob past 10am it does not change much if at all, Maxed it out and the amp had much the same character. Pulle the gain pot, not much of a difference. Switch to CH3 and got the exact same sound. No change in saturation or anything. It did not sound bad, it just lacked the usable range of the gain control. I can see why one would think there is a preamp tube problem. I had enough of that after messing around with the amp for 30 minutes.
Next up was the STR440 grey. Totally different. Sure the amp sounded close to what it did with the STR443 but the gain control had way more effect on level of saturation. I hooked up the Mark VII and compared the IIC mode. Almost on par with each other in respect to the gain control. Those STR440 power tubes is what drew me into the amp. It is that time loss deal. Much better and why I liked the JP2C so much.
Bottom line on the STR443, they are just ok if you do not mind a limited range of gain. I believe what is going on with those tubes is the way they reduce the midrange content. Mesa's description is they have "tucked mids", lets just say it used to say that. It looks like they changed the description, I remember distinctively that the unwanted buzz, sizzle or harshness was in reference to the STR440 tubes and was in the STR443 description. : Blue text is from Mesa's current website.
The MESA® 6L6 STR-443 is a premium grade, vintage-voiced 6L6. They are beautifully balanced, offering a deep low end, controlled, tailored low-mids with a pleasing sparkle and chime on the top-end that provides a pleasing clarity. High quality structural integrity provides consistent, reliable performance, making this tube a great choice in any 6L6 based amp, and for any style of music.
Never mind, I must have lost my mind, the "tucked mids" is the description of the STR441 tube. I could have sworn they changed it. That description was closer to the STR441. I had to look twice at it too. the STR441 were classified as the vintage sounding tube. I am not having a brain fart. Have I lost any sense of reality?
The MESA® 6L6 STR 441 is an exceptional vintage-voiced 6L6 with superb low end, neatly tucked mids and an exceptionally smooth, tapered top-end for a warmer, richer and sweeter tone. They help provide the Treble and Presence Controls with an extended usable range without adding unwanted, detached “buzz”, “sizzle” or harshness.
I must be loosing my mind. I would swear that the STR441 was the description for the STR443 tube, and vise versa. Also they used to have listed what amp they were perfect with. STR441 was recommended for the Mark V90 and the STR443 was stated to be the current tube used in the JP2C.
The STR441 does sound good in the Mark V90 but becomes a lame duck in the JP2C.
The MESA® 6L6 STR-448 is a premium grade 6L6 with a balanced voice and plenty of punch and headroom. They produce rich low end, tight, full midrange and pleasing top end that is present where it counts, yet also warm and cohesive. Structurally sound and high quality, these tubes are consistent and reliable, making them a great choice for any 6L6-based amp and applicable to most any style of music.
So far from the first two tubes, STR443 (disappointing) to the STR440 (hell-of-a-good tube when compared to the STR443), I believe the tubes should have cooled down enough to remove them by now. Time to work the STR448 tube in. While that subject is current. There is one thing I noticed with the STR448 tube. They have the same plate design as the STR440. Not sure about the innards I cannot see and have no plans on cutting the glass off of a tube unless it was dead.
OK, Got to the STR448 grey. They drop right in if you get the key and pins where they need to be but can be tricky as they are longer. Tone-wise, they are balanced. So where did I push the gain, all the way and had to find a guitar that did not have hot pickups to prevent the feedback. Had the same issue with the STR415 or STR440 to be honest. Also had to drop out the bass and adjust midrange down a bit. I normally run the gain around 11am as that is plenty for my needs. Actually it was interesting to find the limit how low I can adjust the gain and where it picks back up. Almost dialed all the way out. 7am if that is the stop point, then 8am was where it had as much gain as the amp when I had the STR443. 9am it really picks up and past that it keeps going. At noon it begins to compress a bit as it saturates the power tubes. These are the closest to the STR415 as I said many times before. With the STR448 tubes and the gain knobs pushed in, at the 11am gain setting, the JP2C has already surpassed the Mark VII in IIC mode. Not the same amp though as there are many differences between the two other than the 7 usable configurations.
I was using a Charvel guitar that had a trembucker sized JB in the bridge (MJ San Dimas HSS if you want to know what it was). It is a high output pickup. The other guitar I had out was another MJ San Dimas but the HSH format. I was hoping to grab the case with the DK24 as that has a full shred in the bridge and is not as much high output compared to the JB. Instead I grabbed the So-Cal HSS that has the SD distortion pickup. Not as robust as the JB but much higher signal strength than the Full shred. I played with both for a while. Think I like the JB bridge more with the JP2C.
So, I learned something today. This was the first time I noticed that the gain control had no effect to a point when using the STR443 tubes. That is so weird. That was with the channel volume set to noon. I had to back it off some with the other tubes as it was getting on the loud side. I did not change any preamp tubes as I am lazy. No need as it was all to deal with the power tubes.
The STR440 had a bit more hair on it, fizzy or fuzzy if that helps. They still sounded great compared to the STR443. Note that I do not have more than 4 -5 hours of use on those STR443. I just could not bond with them.
I hope those TAD tubes fix your issue. If they are the same tube Mesa has branded as the STR448 then you will be in good shape (assuming they fall into that grey bias color range). Reds are way too weak for the amp as they have too much headroom and no onset of distortion.
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Just curious have you tried separating the preamp from the power amp to see if there are any differences. Just run the fx loop send to another power amp in and see if the JP2C preamp is behaving like you'd expect. Subsequently you can run another amp you're familiar with and send it's fx send with into the fx return of the JP2C and see how that sounds. BTW I always leave a cab attached to both amps when doing this in order to eliminate any unloaded power section scenario.
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@bandit2013
Man!!!! You've really experimented with stuff like I have!!! Lots of different things and in the end they all sound like me LOL!!! The funny thing is pickups all seem to be two flavors to me and the rest is tweaking: ceramic vs AlNiCo. I get more open sound from AlNiCo, more smoothness and a different attack from ceramic. Everything else is tweaking... hotter, cleaner, different wires AlNiCo IV does tend to be a littttle smoother, but still open.
My pickups in-general tend to be pretty clear. Humbuckers are the Suhr Thornbucker+, but I have an ooooooold Duncan Distortion in my Ibanez RS525 from 1986. Even single-coils, I have all flavors of Suhr in various guitars, a set of Woodsheds in one Modern T, Classic T's in a Classic T (LOL) and a Woodshed/V60LP combo in a Modern T. I don't like multiple guitars of the same flavor with the exact same pickups LOL! My two custom Moderns have a Thornbucker+/V63+ setup.
Below are my two Moderns. I've put solid saddles on them since, mostly because the strings wore a groove in the bent steel saddles and were pinging. Did change the tone ever so slightly, but in a good way.
What I love about what I can hear in the JP2C is especially with single-coils. They sound like single-coils, but still have size and the amp doesn't totally dominate the pickup. The Shiva can dominate a guitar, especially in-between positions. They get lost. The JP2C doesn't seem to do that in the 2's and 4's, which I use a lot with gain. I even use the middle pickup a ton on my Strat-style guitars. Man, that Warmoth build looks sweet!!! The only pickups that ever really destroyed my eardrums like that were some Bardens I had in a NoNeck Strat. Man... THOSE were bright!!!!
Is that a pretty decent everyday representation of how the Badlander sounds? Holy crap, that sounds nice!!! Maybe if it wasn't called a Dual Rectifier (especially since it only has a SS rectifier), it wouldn't be shaded so much. It sounds fantastic!
I get the OCD thing. Trust me, it'll be weird running the JP2C into my Bogner OS 2x12, other than the fact the Bogner logo broke off years ago and my drummer keeps it on the wall in his basement LOL!!! Such a great 2x12, although the Mesa vertical 2x12 does intrigue me for band stuffs.
Is the a Mesa part number or equivalent to the TAD 6L6GCM STR I purchased the 448? Just hoping I won't have installation issues or have to contort in a weird way to get them to fit. They've been run-in and are scheduled to arrive Tuesday!
I don't know if it's the 443's that are causing this sound or if it's a bad power tube altogether. You know that sound you get when you plug an OD pedal or distortion pedal directly into a board? It's kind of like that. Not to mention the hisses and pops. That said, what you're seeing with the 443's is exactly what I see. Very limited change after a certain point. I know there is a trick to dialing in Marks, but it's not rocket surgery. Other words, I don't believe it's user error LOL! There's something definitely amiss in the amp. I'm gonna' try the below suggestion hopefully this afternoon...
You know what... that's a great idea! I can even try to run a gain pedal directly to the effects loop input to bypass the preamp and see if there is any issue with the power section!
Man!!!! You've really experimented with stuff like I have!!! Lots of different things and in the end they all sound like me LOL!!! The funny thing is pickups all seem to be two flavors to me and the rest is tweaking: ceramic vs AlNiCo. I get more open sound from AlNiCo, more smoothness and a different attack from ceramic. Everything else is tweaking... hotter, cleaner, different wires AlNiCo IV does tend to be a littttle smoother, but still open.
My pickups in-general tend to be pretty clear. Humbuckers are the Suhr Thornbucker+, but I have an ooooooold Duncan Distortion in my Ibanez RS525 from 1986. Even single-coils, I have all flavors of Suhr in various guitars, a set of Woodsheds in one Modern T, Classic T's in a Classic T (LOL) and a Woodshed/V60LP combo in a Modern T. I don't like multiple guitars of the same flavor with the exact same pickups LOL! My two custom Moderns have a Thornbucker+/V63+ setup.
Below are my two Moderns. I've put solid saddles on them since, mostly because the strings wore a groove in the bent steel saddles and were pinging. Did change the tone ever so slightly, but in a good way.
What I love about what I can hear in the JP2C is especially with single-coils. They sound like single-coils, but still have size and the amp doesn't totally dominate the pickup. The Shiva can dominate a guitar, especially in-between positions. They get lost. The JP2C doesn't seem to do that in the 2's and 4's, which I use a lot with gain. I even use the middle pickup a ton on my Strat-style guitars. Man, that Warmoth build looks sweet!!! The only pickups that ever really destroyed my eardrums like that were some Bardens I had in a NoNeck Strat. Man... THOSE were bright!!!!
Is that a pretty decent everyday representation of how the Badlander sounds? Holy crap, that sounds nice!!! Maybe if it wasn't called a Dual Rectifier (especially since it only has a SS rectifier), it wouldn't be shaded so much. It sounds fantastic!
I get the OCD thing. Trust me, it'll be weird running the JP2C into my Bogner OS 2x12, other than the fact the Bogner logo broke off years ago and my drummer keeps it on the wall in his basement LOL!!! Such a great 2x12, although the Mesa vertical 2x12 does intrigue me for band stuffs.
Is the a Mesa part number or equivalent to the TAD 6L6GCM STR I purchased the 448? Just hoping I won't have installation issues or have to contort in a weird way to get them to fit. They've been run-in and are scheduled to arrive Tuesday!
I don't know if it's the 443's that are causing this sound or if it's a bad power tube altogether. You know that sound you get when you plug an OD pedal or distortion pedal directly into a board? It's kind of like that. Not to mention the hisses and pops. That said, what you're seeing with the 443's is exactly what I see. Very limited change after a certain point. I know there is a trick to dialing in Marks, but it's not rocket surgery. Other words, I don't believe it's user error LOL! There's something definitely amiss in the amp. I'm gonna' try the below suggestion hopefully this afternoon...
You know what... that's a great idea! I can even try to run a gain pedal directly to the effects loop input to bypass the preamp and see if there is any issue with the power section!
- Joined
- May 12, 2024
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Experiment #1 complete... ran my germanium OCD directly into the effects return and plugged into the pedal. Other than it sounded muffled, there were no pops, hisses or groans.
Did I prove anything? No clue LOL!!!
Did I prove anything? No clue LOL!!!
I like the quilt on the brown one. I see the purple one has some Royal Ebony. Nice. Reminds me of my Carvin guitars. I stopped buying from that company not too long after they changed the name to Kiesel. I have three guitars branded with the Kiesel logo and one with the Carvin logo after the name change. Here are just three of them. The one in the middle is the first one I ever bought, it was used and well dang, that axe was one slick axe. I wanted to order one but was unsure which to get. So I adopted a few used instruments. I settled on three, CT624C is the one on the right, Bolt C on the left and the other is not in the image. I sort of got hooked on the Floyd Rose bridge. What was a let down, Kiesel removed that from their guitar builder on the models I had interest for and decided to try something else with the GAS I had. Ended up with several Charvel guitars, OK, no carved tops or fancy woods and those that do have quilted maple, it is just a thin overlay. As for the Carvin guitars, that is thick wood slab as the top wood, The bolt guitar maple top is 1/4 inch and the carve top on the right was a little over 1/2 inch thick. If I were to use the builder on Kiesel's website to replace the choice guitars I have now, the cost is too high to commit. What I do like about Charvel, they play just as good as the Carvin's.
I do keep a lookout for used Carvin guitars every now and then.
For example, I wanted to experiment with 7 string guitars. Found two Kiesels I thought might be worth trying out. Those Kiesel Lithium pickups had to go, I tossed in some SD pickups for better sound quality. Kiesel messed up the pickup formula and went to the weak sauce winding. Those Carvin 22 pole pickups were much better.
That is a great idea @rarebitusa. Never considered slaving out to another amp. I always make the assumption what the topic is, that is all they got and nothing else.
Hey, @ntotoro, I reminder on the amp if you do this. Note that the channel master control is after the FX loop. So If you want to hear if the amp is making enough distortion, make sure the amp you slave into has a global master volume or a volume control after its loop or it will get loud very quickly. I found that out the hard way. At least the amp I slaved into had a global master volume.
As for the Badlander, I do not see it as a Rectifier amp. At first I wanted to believe it had a cold clipper circuit that creates that sub harmonic content. The only common thing it does have is the tone stack driver but a working and quite responsive tone stack, unlike the Roadster or MWDR, those are much different. Then the FX loop is driven by a cathode follower circuit to create a low source impedance which is best for that sort of thing. That amp is a hybrid with a basic Mark lead drive circuit sandwiched between two gain stages before it staggers into the tone stack driver. Awesome amp. Works great with the extended range guitars too, can't say that for the Dual Rectifiers.
I had one of the early Stilettos too. Stage 1 Deuce. I gave it a trial run for 5 days and wanted to get rid of it. It was not all that much cost. I did not want to ship it back so I traded it in at guitar center 100 miles away as they had a Royal Atlantic combo for sale. I saw that amp there before so I called in before leaving to reserve it. What the heck am I going to do with another RA100? How does going stereo sound, it sounds really good. That is what got me hooked on a stereo rig.
Then came the Badlander, got one from the first 100 made. Hey, this is really good. not the same as the MW or Roadster. You bet I had to compare them. I was surprised it was much closer to the JP2C than either of the two Dual recs.
So what am I going to do with it? If I had one more, that would be a cool stereo rig. Or do I get another JP2C? I debated that for a while. Two JP2C and use the midi to connect the two and use one footswitch cool. I did that with the TC100 and TC50. But yet the amp lacks the FX control. bummer. Bought another BAD100 and done. I am repeating myself again. Mark VII, then needed it in stereo mode. As of late, I noticed that Mesa dropped the price on the JP2C, it no longer costs an arm and a kidney. They dropped it by a kidney and list it $100 more than the Mark VII. They just want my money, don't they? How can Mesa get my money, make a good deal or come out with something better that what I got. Yeah, that daisy chain trick works well with the Mark VII.
I do keep a lookout for used Carvin guitars every now and then.
For example, I wanted to experiment with 7 string guitars. Found two Kiesels I thought might be worth trying out. Those Kiesel Lithium pickups had to go, I tossed in some SD pickups for better sound quality. Kiesel messed up the pickup formula and went to the weak sauce winding. Those Carvin 22 pole pickups were much better.
That is a great idea @rarebitusa. Never considered slaving out to another amp. I always make the assumption what the topic is, that is all they got and nothing else.
Hey, @ntotoro, I reminder on the amp if you do this. Note that the channel master control is after the FX loop. So If you want to hear if the amp is making enough distortion, make sure the amp you slave into has a global master volume or a volume control after its loop or it will get loud very quickly. I found that out the hard way. At least the amp I slaved into had a global master volume.
As for the Badlander, I do not see it as a Rectifier amp. At first I wanted to believe it had a cold clipper circuit that creates that sub harmonic content. The only common thing it does have is the tone stack driver but a working and quite responsive tone stack, unlike the Roadster or MWDR, those are much different. Then the FX loop is driven by a cathode follower circuit to create a low source impedance which is best for that sort of thing. That amp is a hybrid with a basic Mark lead drive circuit sandwiched between two gain stages before it staggers into the tone stack driver. Awesome amp. Works great with the extended range guitars too, can't say that for the Dual Rectifiers.
I had one of the early Stilettos too. Stage 1 Deuce. I gave it a trial run for 5 days and wanted to get rid of it. It was not all that much cost. I did not want to ship it back so I traded it in at guitar center 100 miles away as they had a Royal Atlantic combo for sale. I saw that amp there before so I called in before leaving to reserve it. What the heck am I going to do with another RA100? How does going stereo sound, it sounds really good. That is what got me hooked on a stereo rig.
Then came the Badlander, got one from the first 100 made. Hey, this is really good. not the same as the MW or Roadster. You bet I had to compare them. I was surprised it was much closer to the JP2C than either of the two Dual recs.
So what am I going to do with it? If I had one more, that would be a cool stereo rig. Or do I get another JP2C? I debated that for a while. Two JP2C and use the midi to connect the two and use one footswitch cool. I did that with the TC100 and TC50. But yet the amp lacks the FX control. bummer. Bought another BAD100 and done. I am repeating myself again. Mark VII, then needed it in stereo mode. As of late, I noticed that Mesa dropped the price on the JP2C, it no longer costs an arm and a kidney. They dropped it by a kidney and list it $100 more than the Mark VII. They just want my money, don't they? How can Mesa get my money, make a good deal or come out with something better that what I got. Yeah, that daisy chain trick works well with the Mark VII.
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