Playing harmonics through Rectifiers vs. other amps

[bandit2013]

One other question comes to mind, what tube are you using in V1? This can make a huge difference in how the amp responds. I found the Mesa 12ax7 to be too dark in V1, tung sol 12ax7 adds a little more upper frequencies. A change in V2 can also make a difference as well. Leave the rest as is (mesa tubes). I have tried other tubes in the PI position but prefer the tone of the Mesa tube. However, a Sovtek LPS does seem to aid in brightness and makes the presence controls more reactive. I would not have thought that the PI tube would have any influence on tone, but for some reason it does with the Roadster (but it is not very dramatic change). As it seems, only the short plate Mesa (JJ) tubes work in the cathode follower circuits (as well as the Chinese versions) but there does not seem to be much to gain with a change in V3 or V5. Sorry if I derailed this post on a tube subject but may be key to what you are trying to achieve.

 

[Given To Fly]

Preamp tubes are all SPAX7's which were all changed at the same time. I am not actually trying to achieve anything. This thread is based on an observation made by someone else, which I happened to notice as well but never said anything, regarding harmonics being more difficult to play on Rectifiers as opposed to, in this case, the TC-50. The person who made this observation also loves Marshalls. I was wondering if people on this forum had noticed the same thing concerning harmonics through Rectifiers? One of the nice things about this forum is the objective discussion about Mesa/Boogie amplifiers. You guys understand the strengths and weaknesses of these amps and seem to share consistent observations. I was just curious what you had observed.

 

[bandit2013]

It is great to shed light on observation.... Especially if you do not have the opportunity to play the amp before buying. (my case with the JP-2C). Videos and recordings are one thing but does not give the buyer an idea for the feel of the amp. I love my Roadster as it is a polar opposite to the Mark V, being warm in its tone vs a colder top end on the V. JP sits in the middle and complements the Roadster quite well. No comment on the JP and V.

I prefer to use the Roadster as a rhythm amp but depends on what voice you are using. Modern will definitely be darker on CH4, CH3 is closer to the other Rectifiers. However, I have no experience with the newer versions of the DR and TR but have noticed they seem a bit different in tonal pallet than the Roadster. Actually before this post, I never really took notice.... All is good though as I bought the Roadster for what it is and not for what it can or cannot do as there are ways to work around it with additional help with external pedals. Sure there is plenty of gain on tap, but there is merit to using pedals to shape your tone. Same applies to the JP and the V.

 

[screamingdaisy]

IMO, the reason Marks and Marshalls project pinch harmonics better is due to compression... particularly when you consider that a Marshall will typically have a compressed overdrive stacked into it.

Due to their cold clipping stage Rectifiers produce a lot of distortion without applying a whole lot of gain (relative to a Mark). The net result is their characteristic chainsaw grind, but they never really get very compressed. This compression is why Marks sing... and the lack of is why Rectifiers are so percussive.

It took me a long time to embrace a Recto as a lead amp. It sounded awesome for rhythm, but it took me a long time to figure out how to use it for lead. Part of it was figuring out why turning up the gain made leads sound like mush and that I could get better lead tones at lower gain settings than I used for rhythm, and part of it was learning how to "under drive" the amp with a Tubescreamer.... dialling in the TS so that it add more gain stages (and compression) yet dialling back it's output so that it didn't the preamp as hard (creating a more compression with less distortion scenario).

 

[Given To Fly]

It is great to shed light on observation.... Especially if you do not have the opportunity to play the amp before buying. (my case with the JP-2C). Videos and recordings are one thing but does not give the buyer an idea for the feel of the amp. I love my Roadster as it is a polar opposite to the Mark V, being warm in its tone vs a colder top end on the V. JP sits in the middle and complements the Roadster quite well. No comment on the JP and V.

I prefer to use the Roadster as a rhythm amp but depends on what voice you are using. Modern will definitely be darker on CH4, CH3 is closer to the other Rectifiers. However, I have no experience with the newer versions of the DR and TR but have noticed they seem a bit different in tonal pallet than the Roadster. Actually before this post, I never really took notice.... All is good though as I bought the Roadster for what it is and not for what it can or cannot do as there are ways to work around it with additional help with external pedals. Sure there is plenty of gain on tap, but there is merit to using pedals to shape your tone. Same applies to the JP and the V.

The reasons I bought my Roadster were very different. They basically came down to these three:
1. I needed a proper tube amp.
2. I didn't want to go through the hassle of biasing the amp when I changed tubes.
3. A guy was selling his 2x12 Combo for a suspiciously low price. His story made sense though. :lol:

After grad school, I became an exponentially better electric guitarist by plugging my Ibanez RG2228GK straight into my Roadster with Petrucci's Road King settings dialed in and practicing. (My Masters degree is in classical guitar performance which changed my life but did not improve my alternate picking.) However, now I do agree there is merit in shaping your tone with pedals. The reality is, if you consider a 100 watt tube amp a Lamborghini, I like to play at "idle." :lol: Eventually that will not be the case and then all bets will be off. I will use whatever works to get the sound I want/need while keeping it under control.

 

[bandit2013]

+1, what screamingdaisy said....

 

[afu]

Been using Vintage a lot with a boost. As Screaming Daisy said, driving the front with less amp gain does wonders for harmonics. It also brings out a brighter character in the sound compared to just jacking up the amp gain.

I've recently started running the channel volume as low as I can on the dirt channels. It helps me dial in sounds more easily and gives more leeway with balancing the cleans. I then put the Output where I need it for final volume.

Vintage comes through more clearly, the lows are tighter and it has massive punch. With the drive pedal volume well up and the gain on just a hair, the harmonics leap out. That's while putting the amp gain at 10:30 to 11.

 

[APEMAN]

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[afu]

Of course you guys are right about the reduced gain for lead playing on the roadster/roadking ch3 vintage. Before I sold my Recto I always wondered about the petrucci settings which didnt work for me: he used to set the gain in ch3 vintage to 100% - Wtf??? To me that felt like I had a fuzz pedal in front of the amp... Is there anyone that plays with 100% gain? I think those settings are impossible.

Only on Pushed or Raw have I maxed the gain.

With Vintage, there's a couple of ways to get the fuzzy maxed tone, but retaining the full use of the EQ.

One way is to put the gain at 1 or 2 o'clock and boost the front really hard. I like using an EQ pedal with the level at 15db and making a slight, crooked frown to make middle stand out and kill the treble above 2khz. The amp's bass needs to be dialed back a bit from the position of the mid control to clean up the bottom (if mid's on 11, put bass at shy of 11).

Or use Modern set dark and sizzling.

 

[Given To Fly]

Of course you guys are right about the reduced gain for lead playing on the roadster/roadking ch3 vintage. Before I sold my Recto I always wondered about the petrucci settings which didnt work for me: he used to set the gain in ch3 vintage to 100% - Wtf??? To me that felt like I had a fuzz pedal in front of the amp... Is there anyone that plays with 100% gain? I think those settings are impossible.

These are the only Petrucci Road King settings I have ever been able to find. Were you using these or are there others?

 

[Eevil]

These are the only Petrucci Road King settings I have ever been able to find. Were you using these or are there other?

Btw. I tried those settings in Roadster at some point and it was painfully dark tone... no way of cutting thru band with my gear... I got the feeling that I've missed something. (Hearing of course but that's another story :lol: )

 

[APEMAN]

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[Given To Fly]

Of course you guys are right about the reduced gain for lead playing on the roadster/roadking ch3 vintage. Before I sold my Recto I always wondered about the petrucci settings which didnt work for me: he used to set the gain in ch3 vintage to 100% - Wtf??? To me that felt like I had a fuzz pedal in front of the amp... Is there anyone that plays with 100% gain? I think those settings are impossible.

These are the only Petrucci Road King settings I have ever been able to find. Were you using these or are there others?

The JP settings I used were taken from live rig photos and came close to what you posted, but if I remember right they were more extreme. Sounding even darker...more gain more bass. Resulting in my doubts that he ever used that amp's preamp without heavy pre preamp fx or boosting at all.

Interesting! These settings sound good for me at lower volumes, but then again, a lot of things can sound good at lower volumes. Are there any other sources of knowledge concerning Petrucci using the Road King? The amount of information seems scarce.

Fun story: The first time I heard John Petrucci play live was on the 2001 G3 Tour. Considering he did not have a solo album yet made me, and I'm sure others, wonder "What is he going play?" Well, Petrucci opened the show with "Jaws of Life" and my life changed. :shock: :shock: :shock: The Road Kings sounded so good! They were loud, but it was an appropriate volume level, plus, the bassist and drummer (Portnoy) were easy to hear. So, when you go from "uncertainty about what Petrucci will play" to "Jaws of Life" through Road Kings, it has an impact on you. To this day, I have not heard either Petrucci, Vai, or Satriani play better sets than they played that night which suggests to me there was some serious "friendly" competition going on during that tour.

 

[APEMAN]

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[bandit2013]

I looked at the diagrams of the settings. That is close to what I use and I do not find it painfully dark at all. Trick is a change in V1 to a Tung Sol which has a different characteristic than the Mesa (JJ ECC83-s). Takes out most of the dark tone but yet still has plenty of bottom bite as well as adds a bit on the top.
The rest of the tubes are Mesa. I have compared the Roadster CH4 extreme to the JP-2C and they sound very close to each other (not identical but close enough that both would seem to complement each other if used together). With all stock tubes in the Roadster, it will not happen as it will be dark or muddy depending on where the bass control is set. Reason why I switched V1 as I could not remove enough bass on CH4 even with the bass control set to its lowest setting. Besides, there are no ill effects on the other channels with Tung Sol in V1. Clean channels still sound very much the same.

 

[Eevil]

The tung-sol is something I've had in mind for long time already. Maybe next time when I order poweramp tubes to Roadster I'll snatch one tungsol to same order... change of pickups made also huge difference in clarity and bite.

 

[Given To Fly]

Interesting! These settings sound good for me at lower volumes, but then again, a lot of things can sound good at lower volumes. Are there any other sources of knowledge concerning Petrucci using the Road King? The amount of information seems scarce.

Fun story: The first time I heard John Petrucci play live was on the 2001 G3 Tour. Considering he did not have a solo album yet made me, and I'm sure others, wonder "What is he going play?" Well, Petrucci opened the show with "Jaws of Life" and my life changed. :shock: :shock: :shock: The Road Kings sounded so good! They were loud, but it was an appropriate volume level, plus, the bassist and drummer (Portnoy) were easy to hear. So, when you go from "uncertainty about what Petrucci will play" to "Jaws of Life" through Road Kings, it has an impact on you. To this day, I have not heard either Petrucci, Vai, or Satriani play better sets than they played that night which suggests to me there was some serious "friendly" competition going on during that tour.

There are many fotos from him using the Roadking I head at shows and shop clinics as well as him speaking about it in interviews. If you look at the bonus DVDs on Dream Theaters Live in Budokan and Score he shows his Roadkings. Btw, what he not tells is that he used a custom build MarkII rack preamp with the Roadking as poweramp.

To your fun story: I had a similar boogie awakening at a dream theater show on the octavarium tour (I think that was the reason why I bought my dual recto in the first place). And it even got worse on two experiences (one of it first row) on the chaos in motion tour. The first row gig was pretty extreme, my first time wall of boogie in your face experience. :shock: I could never forget that.

It seems information is less scarce if you look for it! Although, I think I have seen the bonus material from Live in Budokan but probably not all of it. Perhaps there is some information on the internet I can read... :lol: