Paul Reed Smith made in Korea

[RR]

Woodworker glue such as "Titebond" has cellulose component like the molecular structure of wood. So when two piece of wood each with a film of woodworker glue clamped correctly makes it practically one. That's why you hear the expression "the bond is stronger than the wood itself".

Now you may provide me with an example where the glue joint failed. Those examples do have explanation whether its shear or torsion failure.

I read this article in a woodworker magazine FAQ "Why is woodworker glue so strong?"

So as far you thinking that glue does not make enough wood contact, above is my rebuttal.

Rocky's post is pretty much what I would say.

 

[mikeymike]

You guys think he rides alone? You'd hate to hear my theories on all the 'wood' and "dont cut holes in the body"... lol I think that when people go for tune-o-matics and set necks they are forgetting that the neck never touches the body on those guitars because of the glue. Bolt necks are the only one with a true contact patch other than neckthru (obviously) and to top it off wood is absorbing the string vibration in a tune-o-matic setup. My belief is.. if you isolate the strings from the body it will sing. Floyd rose and locknut. Metal clamping both sides of the string making it one entity mostly avoidant of the body except the 2 pivot posts and the nut being bolted down. I feel that this would contribute to purity of the sound of the string and possibly increase sustain. This whole "more wood is better" theory is backwards to me. I view the wood as a vibration sponge.

I can't wait to see how many people attack me to death lol.
But the ones i really want to see are the ones who might consider my theory to be true... And if they dont and want to rebute me I'd be glad to listen to the other things I am not realizing in my simple self-theory. lol

If i missed something about the whole wood is tone thing share with me. I'm not trying to start an argument. Just offering a way to think about the system a little different than most.

The problem with your 'simple theory' is that it doesnt have any backup in the real world...which in this instance is the real data set.

I am not going to attack you but your 'theory' doesnt hold up in the real world. Floyd Rose guitars have decent sustain but set neck guitars have more sustain than a Floyd loaded instrument. Locking trems are known sustain soakers....which is why clean tone guys avoid them while high gain guys make up for the shortcomings of a Floyd with gain and controlled feedback. Those simple facts alone blow your theory out of the water. Remember that in order for a theory to stand it must stand up to testing and scrutiny. Yours fails.

As for wood being a vibration sponge....that is true. BUT that is what you want....the energy from the strings works with the wood to produce an instrument's fundamental tone. You WANT the wood to vibrate in order to capture the tone of the INSTRUMENT...a string alone has pitch but little along the way of a pleasing tone. Mahogany sounds different from Ash which sounds different from Maple which sounds different from Alder because of the way the wood vibrates when a string is struck....the vibration of the wood interacts with the string and they feed off each other in a properly made guitar (sorry folks but your plywood Cort IS killing your sound) that actually gives you a pleasing sustain AND a smooth decay.

Now for Glue: I think the anti glue camp needs to see some guitars being made an learn a little about how glue works in guitar making. The bead of glue is SUPER thin. The bond is as tight b/w the pieces being glued as the original wood fibers. In fact it is stronger.

I have fixed snapped headstocks on guitars...then had them come back later with another break. The glue joint is as strong as the wood and the new break is n early always in a different spot. Proper glues bond on a level that is SO thin that there is no vibration loss at all.

In a properly designed neck joint there should be VERY little sustain difference b/w bolt on, Set neck and neck thru guitars.

Ok but there is no wood to wood contact and I wasn't talking about the strength of the bond. I was talking about the wood to wood contact transmitting the vibration to the body.

The pickups are floating away from the body anyway... Ring mounted or pickguard guitars both hang the pickups in a cavity. I have all 3 types of pickup mounting methods on my 3 guitars; direct, ring, pickguard and none of them really sound any different then the other. It's a bunch of hoopla.

You do realize that you contradicted yourself in your statement about the floyd roses sucking up sustain. If you suspended a string between 2 locknuts floating in midair (not possible) and plucked it, it will ring out for a really long time. If you had anything to 'soak up' the vibration you would LOSE sustain.

Your theory has no more merit than mine. You haven't shown me any proof that it does, you just use catch phrases like 'locking trems are known sustain soakers' and 'thats why high gain guys make up for them with gain and feedback' You're spouting off things that you hear online. If wood absorbs the vibration what do the pickups have to pickup? The ONLY THING pickups pick up is: the metal string moving through a magnetic field with a coil of wire inducting the energy (faraday's law). They don't pickup the body for extra mahogany tone. If the string isn't moving as much because the body is soaking up the vibration then how is that giving you better sustain?

Also If you were insinuating I have a plywood Cort you're sorely mistaken. I have 3 Japanese made Ibanez guitars. 1998 RG-550 DY, 2001 RG-520QS TB, and 2001 RG-770FM DRD (Japanese model).

 

[RR]

...Ok but there is no wood to wood contact and I wasn't talking about the strength of the bond....

Yes there is! Once you use woodworker's glue and clamp it up the cellulose bonds between the woods makes it as though it is one. When you glue up two piece of boards, there is wood to wood contact. The glues is between the fine pores of the woods. The glues is not a "film" between the two woods.

You seem to get the impression the glue is a thin film between the woods. No, it isn't, its wood on wood with the glue in the wood pores holding the bond.

Now if I could find that woodworker article that describes this I would post it up.

But then again, you might be those type of person that don't believe in science facts.

 

[mikeymike]

...Ok but there is no wood to wood contact and I wasn't talking about the strength of the bond....

Yes there is! Once you use woodworker's glue and clamp it up the cellulose bonds between the woods makes it as though it is one. When you glue up two piece of boards, there is wood to wood contact. The glues is between the fine pores of the woods. The glues is not a "film" between the two woods.

You seem to get the impression the glue is a thin film between the woods. No, it isn't, its wood on wood with the glue in the wood pores holding the bond.

Now if I could find that woodworker article that describes this I would post it up.

But then again, you might be those type of person that don't believe in science facts.

Post it if you find it please, I'm open to anything unlike most people. If I learn the mechanism by which it bonds then I will be well informed and smarter for it.

 

[Rocky]

Ok but there is no wood to wood contact and I wasn't talking about the strength of the bond. I was talking about the wood to wood contact transmitting the vibration to the body.

The pickups are floating away from the body anyway... Ring mounted or pickguard guitars both hang the pickups in a cavity. I have all 3 types of pickup mounting methods on my 3 guitars; direct, ring, pickguard and none of them really sound any different then the other. It's a bunch of hoopla.

You do realize that you contradicted yourself in your statement about the floyd roses sucking up sustain. If you suspended a string between 2 locknuts floating in midair (not possible) and plucked it, it will ring out for a really long time. If you had anything to 'soak up' the vibration you would LOSE sustain.

Your theory has no more merit than mine. You haven't shown me any proof that it does, you just use catch phrases like 'locking trems are known sustain soakers' and 'thats why high gain guys make up for them with gain and feedback' You're spouting off things that you hear online. If wood absorbs the vibration what do the pickups have to pickup? The ONLY THING pickups pick up is: the metal string moving through a magnetic field with a coil of wire inducting the energy (faraday's law). They don't pickup the body for extra mahogany tone. If the string isn't moving as much because the body is soaking up the vibration then how is that giving you better sustain?

Also If you were insinuating I have a plywood Cort you're sorely mistaken. I have 3 Japanese made Ibanez guitars. 1998 RG-550 DY, 2001 RG-520QS TB, and 2001 RG-770FM DRD (Japanese model).

Here is a thought....post your theories on The Gear Page. Then get in the shark cage. If you want to learn about this you will get one hell of an education before you know it. Posters on TGP are professionals from all areas of the guitar business...no offense to the guys that post here but I dont get that vibe here. We are better able to educate you on TGP.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php

 

[moltar]

so what is a great guitar to you dean?

Modded Squier Strat, obviously.

Some of us gotta make do. So Step Off!


Rock, I wish you would have attacked the Schecters with this kind of intensity This is one of the better threads on this site.

I do not believe I could identify electric guitars with identical hardware and different tone woods or joints in a blind tone test. I should be able to identify the guitar tone by body density. I look at the tone from an SG and a Les Paul alone for evidence of that. Granted there are some very dense cheap plastic guitars that have horrible sustain and sound, but dense wooden guitars that accentuate the resonance and sustain are hard to argue with. There is most likely a sweet spot for the amount of the material in contact to best be able to resonate your vibrations while maintaining sustain.

I envision a guitar with no wood or body having a lot of attack, but weak sustain. There has to be some engineering study on this somewhere... Yamaha SLG100s seem to cheat the system. idk, I'm no expert and am just throwing thoughts around.

 

[Anonymous]

seems we are getting constructive again.

I owned a marmoreal body and graphite neck (strat shape) guitar. very brittle sounding but the sustain was the best i have ever had. beating the string, leaving the room for a beer, coming back and the string was still swinging.

anyway, the value of a glued piece of wood is less compared with a same sized solid piece. bookmatched bodies are inferior to solid body or one piece tops. ask any carpenter or luthier.

 

[Rocky]

Actually you need to talk to a luthier. Calling you clueless is an insult to the clueless around the world.

Why dont you take up my offer to come to TGP. Guys like you usually dont last long but you will learn something....some of the worlds best luthiers pop up at TGP.


Like that mikey guy I dont think you have the balls to register at TGP.

 

[mikeymike]

Actually you need to talk to a luthier. Calling you clueless is an insult to the clueless around the world.

Why dont you take up my offer to come to TGP. Guys like you usually dont last long but you will learn something....some of the worlds best luthiers pop up at TGP.


Like that mikey guy I dont think you have the balls to register at TGP.

I don't think you understand me. You're some kind of militant about this and I'm just merely throwing out alternative thinking. I have no problem signing up at the gear page but if it's full of toolbags I'd pass. Just because I question the system doesn't mean I'm wrong for thinking outside the box. Thats why I asked people to offer their rebuttals so I can LEARN.

 

[Rocky]

Thinking outside t he box JUST TO SAY THAT YOU ARE THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX is silly and childlike.

If you want to learn about these things that you are completely ignorant about then come to TGP....like I said it is full of pros and you can get some good info there. You wont be able to play spin games like you do here.

 

[mikeymike]

Thinking outside t he box JUST TO SAY THAT YOU ARE THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX is silly and childlike.

If you want to learn about these things that you are completely ignorant about then come to TGP....like I said it is full of pros and you can get some good info there. You wont be able to play spin games like you do here.

I am not playing spin games and I'm not thinking outside the box just to say that I'm thinking outside the box. I've thought about this long before I ever divulged it to anyone. You can kiss my a$$ if you think otherwise. You really need to fix your attitude dude, not everyone thinks outside the box to be "cool", that **** is retarded. Pardon my French.

 

[RR]

o-kay mikeymike:

I admit, I'm not an expert in this field.

Why don't you write to the editors of Tone Quest Report, Guitar Player Magazines editors, Vintage Guitar Magazine editors debating with them.

I'm not sure if you are here to debate with forum members here because you figure we are not much of an expert in this field and its even playing ground. So debate with the experts instead.

I have no problem signing up at the gear page but if it's full of toolbags I'd pass.

Now you are contradicting yourself here. First you say you have no problem then you say you'll pass. True, there's a bunch of Toolbags who has nothing better else to do but if you are willing to learn, be a member TGP and asks politely what you think.

Like Rocky said: You need to talk to a luthier and allow him to explain to you.

I assume you are pleased with your current gear and set up. Right?
Then why bother debating this topic here?
TGP is a great place to start debates.

 

[mikeymike]

o-kay mikeymike:

I admit, I'm not an expert in this field.

Why don't you write to the editors of Tone Quest Report, Guitar Player Magazines editors, Vintage Guitar Magazine editors debating with them.

I'm not sure if you are here to debate with forum members here because you figure we are not much of an expert in this field and its even playing ground. So debate with the experts instead.

I have no problem signing up at the gear page but if it's full of toolbags I'd pass.

Now you are contradicting yourself here. First you say you have no problem then you say you'll pass. True, there's a bunch of Toolbags who has nothing better else to do but if you are willing to learn, be a member TGP and asks politely what you think.

Like Rocky said: You need to talk to a luthier and allow him to explain to you.

I assume you are pleased with your current gear and set up. Right?
Then why bother debating this topic here?
TGP is a great place to start debates.

Hey I wasn't saying you're not an expert in this field really, I hope it didn't come off that way. I knew that my ideas would be outrageous but I'm certain that they hold some merit but not perfect theories, no theory is. I might be overlooking things like someone mentioned attack versus sustain.

My comment about the gear page was probably a little contradictory but what I really meant was that there are so many forums on the internet that people tout as the expert in this or that and it ends up being a bunch of morons/tools who spout off what they've read online or hear from other people (sevenstring.org is a good example). Thats not how people learn if the same wrong information gets disseminated as fact.

I am pretty pleased with my gear but, like anyone who's searching for that perfect tone it won't be this way forever. Eventually I'd like to get a good preamp to replace or work with my pod xt pro. Perhaps a quad or a studio, or recto recording preamp.

I'm not really trying to start debates just wanted to see what people thought about my theory with an open mind but some people just hate to see another point of view and go apesht when someone opposes what they "know" to be fact.

I'm really not trying to spark a flame here or anything just so that you know. It's hard to tell on the internet sometimes what people's intentions are, but rest assured mine is not to be provoking an arguement or attacking others. Sorry if I came off that way.

 

[Rocky]

Seriously, come over to TGP. You have guys like John Suhr, Lindy Fralin, Jerry Driskill, Doug Roccaforte, Tom Anderson, Scott Heatley among others posting there. These are not posers that make empty claims...they are renouned industry professionals.

You have a lot to learn. Your ideas are incorrect and if you REALLY mean that you want to expand your horizons then go where that can happen.

 

[moltar]

On the original topic

and sorry, this SE line is like a texmex strat

The PRS SE's are made exactly to compete in market with the mexi strats. I challenge anyone to find an absolute stand out 300-500 dollar guitar. 1/4 the price : 1/4 the craftsmanship