NOS Tubes in Express 5:25+
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Have "finished" my tube rolling exercise with the 5:25+. Using various NOS tubes in V4 and V5 found no decernable differences over Mesa, JJ's or EH new tubes. So my final conclusion - NOS tubes V2 and V1 can indeed make a tonal difference, and I have the RCA in V2 and the GE in V1. The other tube slots - no difference in tone that I can hear. Might be worth it for the longevity of the NOS tubes, but not for any tonal improvement.
I did find my Egnater Tweaker to respond well to NOS tubes. Again, fatter with a bit more presence. I've got an RCA in V1 (first gain stage for that amp) and GE's in V2 and V3. They take an already pretty good amp for the money to a really good amp for the money.
So other than buying a few more RCA's and GE's for spares, I think I'm done with my tube rolling here.....time to play more. Just got a new EPI 335 yesterday, so it needs to acquaint itself with my boogie, don't you think? :mrgreen:
Al
Have "finished" my tube rolling exercise with the 5:25+. Using various NOS tubes in V4 and V5 found no decernable differences over Mesa, JJ's or EH new tubes. So my final conclusion - NOS tubes V2 and V1 can indeed make a tonal difference, and I have the RCA in V2 and the GE in V1. The other tube slots - no difference in tone that I can hear. Might be worth it for the longevity of the NOS tubes, but not for any tonal improvement.
I did find my Egnater Tweaker to respond well to NOS tubes. Again, fatter with a bit more presence. I've got an RCA in V1 (first gain stage for that amp) and GE's in V2 and V3. They take an already pretty good amp for the money to a really good amp for the money.
So other than buying a few more RCA's and GE's for spares, I think I'm done with my tube rolling here.....time to play more. Just got a new EPI 335 yesterday, so it needs to acquaint itself with my boogie, don't you think? :mrgreen:
Al
Late to the party... 
As you've noticed, the V2 and V1 are where you're most likely to hear diference. The first (and 2nd, natch) in the gain stage is where it matters most; later in the stages the tones are already "stacking" so each indiv tube's influence is already significantly colored by its predecessor(s). Also bear in mind I've read preamp tubes last darn near forever in amps.
Moreover, the "NOS" simply means "old build" that was more sturdy since these were used in real electronic equipment that depended on reliability. Modern tubes are enthusiasts' play things: made in China, Russia, or wherever, for a seriously small consumer segment, and certainly not dependant on large industry whose company relies on their tubes being reliable. That one tube sounds different from one another depends on that very hit/miss basis; but you "should" be getting the more reliable/long-lasting tube with a NOS. That said, remember we are dealing with 30+ year old glass so suffice it to say, there are innumerable variables in use and storage in the interim!
Also, I am surprised no one isn't discussing power tubes here. The power tubes have considerable "say" in the overall voice and dynamics of an amp. And BTW, power tubes do degrade over use so these will, infact, lose their tone, analagous perhaps to how strings lose their sparkle as they get played.
Finally, if you really want to experiment with tubes, try different tube types within the family. In place of a 12ax7, try a 5751 which is roughly 70% the gain, then a 12at7 which is roughly 60%. Gaining "down" is 100% safe ...never go up (like using a 12ax7 in a spot that was designed for a 12at7) as this can/likely will cause damage. Then try them in different tube locations. The first input (V2) is a natural spot to try, but also the PI spot is an excellent candidate for shifting the overal timbre/dynamics this way or that.
Changing speakers is, without question, the most sonic difference one can get per dollar. But once you are at a place where you like the amp's overall voice and character, swapping tubes is like trying different strings on a guitar you already love.
Edward
As you've noticed, the V2 and V1 are where you're most likely to hear diference. The first (and 2nd, natch) in the gain stage is where it matters most; later in the stages the tones are already "stacking" so each indiv tube's influence is already significantly colored by its predecessor(s). Also bear in mind I've read preamp tubes last darn near forever in amps.
Moreover, the "NOS" simply means "old build" that was more sturdy since these were used in real electronic equipment that depended on reliability. Modern tubes are enthusiasts' play things: made in China, Russia, or wherever, for a seriously small consumer segment, and certainly not dependant on large industry whose company relies on their tubes being reliable. That one tube sounds different from one another depends on that very hit/miss basis; but you "should" be getting the more reliable/long-lasting tube with a NOS. That said, remember we are dealing with 30+ year old glass so suffice it to say, there are innumerable variables in use and storage in the interim!
Also, I am surprised no one isn't discussing power tubes here. The power tubes have considerable "say" in the overall voice and dynamics of an amp. And BTW, power tubes do degrade over use so these will, infact, lose their tone, analagous perhaps to how strings lose their sparkle as they get played.
Finally, if you really want to experiment with tubes, try different tube types within the family. In place of a 12ax7, try a 5751 which is roughly 70% the gain, then a 12at7 which is roughly 60%. Gaining "down" is 100% safe ...never go up (like using a 12ax7 in a spot that was designed for a 12at7) as this can/likely will cause damage. Then try them in different tube locations. The first input (V2) is a natural spot to try, but also the PI spot is an excellent candidate for shifting the overal timbre/dynamics this way or that.
Changing speakers is, without question, the most sonic difference one can get per dollar. But once you are at a place where you like the amp's overall voice and character, swapping tubes is like trying different strings on a guitar you already love.
Edward
Hey edward....better late than never! :+)
I certainly at this point do not want to kill my gain using say a 5751, but might be worth buying one just to try.
I agree, a speaker change will make the most difference, which is what I did first, along with finding the cabinet I liked best (using an MC90 in a Forte' 3D - sound very huge). That said, you're saying a move to NOS power tubes, in this case EL84's, would possible change the tonal characteristics of the amp, or just improve the reliability? Or both?
Al
I certainly at this point do not want to kill my gain using say a 5751, but might be worth buying one just to try.
I agree, a speaker change will make the most difference, which is what I did first, along with finding the cabinet I liked best (using an MC90 in a Forte' 3D - sound very huge). That said, you're saying a move to NOS power tubes, in this case EL84's, would possible change the tonal characteristics of the amp, or just improve the reliability? Or both?
Al
Hey Al,
FWIW, I use an Avatar Traditional 112 open-backed cab ...went through a few speaker swaps, and ended up liking the MC90 the best! It's just a great speaker all around, IMHO, but in a larger cab with a smaller "open area" it sounds even bigger! Your Forte makes me think of how good my Thiele sounded when I had one ...great cabs!
Yes, NOS power tubes will theoretically improve reliability for the reasons I had stated. Bought new from a reputable shop, they had been tested and stored properly (and hopefully will be shipped to you properly so as to arrive in good health ). Heck, even bough used (ANOS, as in "almost" NOS), it's a fairly good gamble if the price is right and you get a good vibe from the seller.
And yes, again, the NOS power tubes "can" definitely change the character of the amp: not just the timbre but the dynamics. Even within a given tube family (say, and EL84, or a 12ax7), there is considerable variance in "output," so to speak. In my case, I ended up going with a NOs set of RCA EL84s and they "gain down" the amp just a tad such that I feel the highs are sweeter/smoother (less ice-picky), and offered me more usable range on the treble knob (whereas before I was running the treb knob really low and still not so keen with how the highs sounded, as if brittle and sharp). Bottom end and mids seems to stay the same. And as I have yet to meet any Boogie that doesn't have far more gain than I would ever use, gaining down with these NOS EL84s still resulted in plenty of gain on tap (I use the Blues ch as my cleans and Crunch ch as my OD ...yeah, "backwards" from most, which I'd highly recommend one tries ).
BTW, I know on paper a 5751 is stepping the gain down from an ax7, and going to an at7 lower still. But if you actually try it, it's not as much as "gain reduction" as you think. Don't think of "gaining down"= "less OD" as if that were the goal. The goal is getting the tone and character you prefer in the amp. And if after all is said and done and you still have enough gain on tap, then that's a gain and nothing lost, right? It's all about experimentation, patience, and objectivity ...huge point on objectivity! Don't get "sold" on this magic tube or "that" perfect NOS-er. No such thing! It's all about what you like. As in my 525, I ended up sticking with 12ax7 in all spots as gaining down did not give me what I wanted; but going to the EL84s did. Yet, my DC5 did benefit from a NOS in the V1, and a 5751 in one of the preamp spots. Not to mention NOS Svetlana 6L6s that absolutely rock better than the stock Mesa pwr tubes. Ditto that my MkIII benefitted here, but not there. You get the picture? Tubes won't "fix" an amp whose tone you don't like. But it can very well fine tune an amp that you like, turning into an amp that you love! FWIW, I've tried and sold other amps over the decades, Boogies, Fenders, and others, and the ones I won't ever get rid of are the 525 and DC5. Partly because of how good they sound/behave as is, but also partly because with a few tube swaps they now sing the way I like em to sing. Have fun at it. The worse that can happen is you hate the results and end up going back to a stock amp you already like. ...pssst, then sell the NOS tubes and get much of your money back, and a whole lot more satisfaction out of your amp.
Edward
FWIW, I use an Avatar Traditional 112 open-backed cab ...went through a few speaker swaps, and ended up liking the MC90 the best! It's just a great speaker all around, IMHO, but in a larger cab with a smaller "open area" it sounds even bigger! Your Forte makes me think of how good my Thiele sounded when I had one ...great cabs!
Yes, NOS power tubes will theoretically improve reliability for the reasons I had stated. Bought new from a reputable shop, they had been tested and stored properly (and hopefully will be shipped to you properly so as to arrive in good health
). Heck, even bough used (ANOS, as in "almost" NOS), it's a fairly good gamble if the price is right and you get a good vibe from the seller.And yes, again, the NOS power tubes "can" definitely change the character of the amp: not just the timbre but the dynamics. Even within a given tube family (say, and EL84, or a 12ax7), there is considerable variance in "output," so to speak. In my case, I ended up going with a NOs set of RCA EL84s and they "gain down" the amp just a tad such that I feel the highs are sweeter/smoother (less ice-picky), and offered me more usable range on the treble knob (whereas before I was running the treb knob really low and still not so keen with how the highs sounded, as if brittle and sharp). Bottom end and mids seems to stay the same. And as I have yet to meet any Boogie that doesn't have far more gain than I would ever use, gaining down with these NOS EL84s still resulted in plenty of gain on tap (I use the Blues ch as my cleans and Crunch ch as my OD ...yeah, "backwards" from most, which I'd highly recommend one tries
). BTW, I know on paper a 5751 is stepping the gain down from an ax7, and going to an at7 lower still. But if you actually try it, it's not as much as "gain reduction" as you think. Don't think of "gaining down"= "less OD" as if that were the goal. The goal is getting the tone and character you prefer in the amp. And if after all is said and done and you still have enough gain on tap, then that's a gain and nothing lost, right? It's all about experimentation, patience, and objectivity ...huge point on objectivity! Don't get "sold" on this magic tube or "that" perfect NOS-er. No such thing! It's all about what you like. As in my 525, I ended up sticking with 12ax7 in all spots as gaining down did not give me what I wanted; but going to the EL84s did. Yet, my DC5 did benefit from a NOS in the V1, and a 5751 in one of the preamp spots. Not to mention NOS Svetlana 6L6s that absolutely rock better than the stock Mesa pwr tubes. Ditto that my MkIII benefitted here, but not there. You get the picture? Tubes won't "fix" an amp whose tone you don't like. But it can very well fine tune an amp that you like, turning into an amp that you love! FWIW, I've tried and sold other amps over the decades, Boogies, Fenders, and others, and the ones I won't ever get rid of are the 525 and DC5. Partly because of how good they sound/behave as is, but also partly because with a few tube swaps they now sing the way I like em to sing. Have fun at it. The worse that can happen is you hate the results and end up going back to a stock amp you already like. ...pssst, then sell the NOS tubes and get much of your money back, and a whole lot more satisfaction out of your amp.
Edward
