New Old Amp Day - 2 Channel Triple Rec BlackFace

[Yetti]

Well for those of you that may have followed, Yes i did it, I am going to retire the roadster after fighting with it for the last 6 months. It just cant hang with my Other guitarists 6505+.
After doing research for about the last month and reading everything on this forum discussing related 2 Channel Recs for the last 2-3 archived years. I made it happen and picked up A hell of a score.
And so far ive played it about 2 hours and im 90% certain this is exactly what i was after as far as tone goes.
Had a harder time dialing in a Clean i liked but i blame that on the guitar i was using, A cheap *** "custom" made out of bass wood that i bought on ebay, and my EMG60 is not outputing.
Anyways I scored a Revision F Triple. History of this amp is it was on records and toured with a band called Urge OverKill, I guess they were fairly popular back in the 90s and most famously did a cover of Girl Youll Be a Lover Woman Soon (forgot Who Original artist is)- Appeared on the soundtrack to Pulp Fiction! pretty cool.

So pretty sweet to own some kind of history and for all the 2 channel vs 3 channel hype and the revision hype this deff didnt disappoint me. Just got to get a main guitar back after papal releases my **** money.

On to the P0rn:

Mike B!

Serial # 2880 Revision F only thing i dont know is if its a serial - or paralell loop, And whats the difference between the 2, when i engaged the loop the tone Deff changed. How can i tell? or maybe some of you kids out there that know everything there is about these?

Cheers
-Yetti

 

[Elpelotero]

It's a serial loop. Congrats on a nice purchase!! It looks mint!

 

[Roadifier]

Nice amp. Congrats!! I noticed you had the ground switch on "A". I Dont find that, that switch really does anything, and one thing that is bad about that switch is, if the amp shorts out you could get electrocuted, because the electricity will travel through your guitar to your strings because it is trying to find a ground.

 

[Yetti]

And a serial loop is better? I guess ill do a search and read what has been said about the loops.
Big thanks To you also elpelotero I pretty much read. every topic you posted in for the last 2 years lol.

Yeah that was one of the switches I didn't mess with. Should I just keep It in the off?

 

[fluff191]

That is a sick nasty amp man. Congrats!

 

[YellowJacket]

****, that looks exactly like mine but with more tubes! SOO HOT! I'd suggest throwing some good quality EL-34 power tubes in it. They really add an aggressive midrange bark to the tone that is quite nice!

 

[screamingdaisy]

Triple Recto porn pictures and no shot of all the tubes? :?

What's up with that? :lol:


Anyway, the serial loop sucks tone. It's why they went to the parallel loop. The 'sucked tone' can actually be good at times because it reduces the already gratuitous bottom end, but sometimes it makes the amp feel a little dead.

 

[Yetti]

Hah Sorry None Of the Back but maybe ill get some later haha, turn all the lights off and ****.
Yeah i put El34s in the Roadster and dug the sounds, but im gona toss in some new pretubes at least and see what happens if i still love the tone ill keep the 6l6s, maybe toss some ruby's in there somewhere down the line...who knows. Ive got some money to experiment with this amp for now.
Yeah i did more reading and it seems theres controversy over peoples opinions at least on what sounds better. But If i can toss in my Decimator if i even need it still, and my Gmajor 2 and it still sounds sexy ill keep it or else. My Super cool Gmajor 2 stuck in a Gmajor 1 body will be up for sale.

 

[Roadifier]

Yeah that was one of the switches I didn't mess with. Should I just keep It in the off?

I usually do keep it in the off position, For me it feels safer, Because I live in "the lightning capital" and you never know what will go through the power during an aggressive storm and come through your guitar :shock: . and for one, I don't feel like it does anything for ground hums.

 

[JCDenton6]

Dude, you're evil, I want one :twisted:
I never got the chance to play on any of the early 2 ch dual/triples.

 

[YellowJacket]

Dude, you're evil, I want one :twisted:
I never got the chance to play on any of the early 2 ch dual/triples.

BAHAHAHAHAHA!! Well, if you want one you can always trade screamingdaisy a three channel recto and your sister for his two channel. http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=46817

They aren't terribly different from one another. I own a two channel Rev F dual that looks surprisingly similar to Yetti's triple but with less tubes. I mean there IS a difference but it is sufficiently small. Basically, channel 3 on the three channel heads is more aggressive with more pronounced highs and there is less bass overall. There is also a weaker clean channel. The two channels are 'slightly' more fluid and organic sounding.

 

[JCDenton6]

Very cool, thanks for the info. BTW, how does channel 2 stack up? I'm running a TS7 in front of the dual now until I get this HZD boost pedal:

http://members.shaw.ca/lauriepedals/

 

[YellowJacket]

Well, the 'Boogie Archives' (RIP) covered the differences between different versions of the rectifiers very well. The Early Duals, or rev C - D are the earliest iteration of the Dual Rectifier series and sound very close to the Soldano SLO, the amp that inspired them. These are basically uber heavy shredder amps of hotrodded Marshall JCM800 pedigree. (Mark series amps are hotrodded fender pedigree) The gain tone on these amps is tight, articulate, and heavy; and the clean really REALLY sucks.
The Rev E and F are darker sounding and looser. Biggest difference between the E and F is the massively improved clean tone on the F. Most early duals come with the Mark III Schumacher (sp?) transformer while the Rev G (Garden variety) duals have an output transformer exclusive to these amps. I say MOST Rev F duals have the Mark III OT because mine is a Rev F and has the same output tranny as a G.

The big difference with the 2 channel amps is channel cloning. There is an orange channel and a red channel on the two channel amp. When the orange channel is set to variable high gain and channel cloning is positioned in the middle, the Red channel runs on 'modern high gain' mode and the Orange channel runs in 'vintage high gain mode'. With channel cloning, you can have the red channel run in vintage high gain mode, the orange channel in modern high gain mode, or both channels in either vintage high gain mode or modern high gain mode. Orange channel on the two channel duals also dubs as a clean channel which leaves only the red channel to do vintage or modern gain tones. This is how I typically run my head.

Basically, the RED channel on Revision F and G 'garden variety' 2 channel amps are fairly close to channel two of the three channel dual. The biggest difference is really that the two channel seems to have more bass and more organic / sweeter of a tone. Still, if you set up the dials correctly, you can get settings that approximate what can be achieved on Channel III of the modern dual, provided the tones aren't *too* extreme.

The ORANGE channel is where the true difference lies:
1) The clean tone. When channel 1 is set to clean, there is this buttery warmth that the three channel amps don't have. It is subtle, but an improvement nonetheless. I find that with high quality EL-34s, the clean is comparable to most good tube amps at least on my Rev F. When the bass is set too high, tube breakup can get flubby which is really not a nice effect, but with more reasonable settings you can get anywhere from a squeaky clean to a nice blues overdrive.
2) Variable high gain. This is where the two channels really shine. That same added warmth that is present in the clean settings on the orange channel also makes for a fairly serviceable lead tone. On the red channel, dialing in a good crunch for chording is easy but single note work-and especially leads-really suffer. They feel brittle, thin, and generally quite stiff in nature. When gain saturation is added, they are better but still only acceptable. Generally, they are very close to what you find on the three channel head. On the orange channel, when I refer to a 'serviceable lead tone', I am talking in comparison to an amp known for good lead tones. When we were doing test run #2 with my buddy's 3 channel and my rev F, I decided-for the first time-to try my orange channel in variable high gain mode as a lead channel. I was suitably impressed by it. The lead felt organic, vocal, and very elastic, with tonnes of sustain and a super thick warmth. The notes literally seemed to jump off of the fretboard. I think this was a point of revelation for me. This amp was designed with only a serviceable clean, specifically for use as a distortion amp. The intention really was to use a different head for clean tones. My general impression with my amp is that the orange channel is simply voiced differently and the added mojo infused into that is present no matter what the channel cloning settings are.

So in my opinion, based off our tests, I'd say that the orange channel from the Rev F & G dual Rectifiers doesn't really exist on a three channel Dual. To determine if this is the case with a Roadster / Roadking, tests would have to be done but I'd assume the results would be similar. Perhaps someone who owns a Roadster and a 2 channel dual would care to comment on this . . . The Red channel on a two channel dual is essentially the same as channel 2 on the 3 channel iteration, at least in Vintage and Modern high gain settings. Channel 3 and the clean are both different. When we compared our amps for round #1, we really didn't crank them up at all. When looking at the orange channel on my amp, we assumed it to be 'clean' and my friend simply commented that my clean settings sounded 'good' and he wanted to copy them. That was that. It was only at round #2 when we cranked the amps up and I tried variable high gain mode on my head that we really got an idea of the true difference between these two beasts. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't use channel 2 on a 3 channel dual for leads, you can. It does work and good tones exist on that channel for that application. I'm simply saying that the difference with the orange on the two channel dual is quite pronounced, perhaps much moreso than I initially thought. In my opinion, the lead tone on this channel was really good, and that was with the same settings as my rhythm tone on the red channel. I haven't even really tweaked it to optimize it for lead playing yet.

I talked to my wife and I think our long term plan is to get an ABY switch and an Electra Dyne combo. I LOVE the cleans and the gain options on that amp and I think it would replace my Peavey Rage158 very nicely. As for the Dual, at my earliest convenience I intend on running it for the purpose for which it was designed, as a dedicated distortion amplifier. As for now, I'll just run the gain higher on my Red channel and use the volume knob on my guitar to switch from rhythm to lead. It seems like a great stopgap solution until we finally have the $$$s saved up to run a dual amp setup.

Anyway, sorry for the TL;DR essay. I always assumed all the recto amps to be pretty similar so when we actually tested things, the results were rather surprising. (The most resounding point of agreement between my friend and I was that both heads sound better with high quality EL-34 tubes) Both amps do sound great and people who buy 3 channel duals aren't making a poor decision. The reality of the situation is that they are both different amps with unique positive and negative points. (the 2 channel Dual would be greatly improved with the addition of a stellar dedicated clean channel, for instance) It is up to the player to decide which amp is the best for what is needed at any given time. That being said, I'd like to encourage those here who own 2 channel duals and have not run the orange as a lead channel, try it. See what you think. I'm curious.

 

[screamingdaisy]

I say MOST Rev F duals have the Mark III OT because mine is a Rev F and has the same output tranny as a G.

That I didn't know (I thought the change to Rev G happend when/because they ran out of Mark III transformers.


And... just to confirm.

Are you saying that if you clone both channels to vintage high gain that channel 1 sounds warmer and more fluid than channel 2? I'll have to give that a listen...

 

[YellowJacket]

The Rev F has a different circuit board than the Rev G (hair splitting).
I guess they ran out of Mark III Transformers before they got to my amp!

Yes, I experienced that the orange channel on my Rev F is warmer and more fluid than the red channel when both are cloned to vintage high gain. It was a surprising difference.

 

[JCDenton6]

Awesome info YellowJacket! Thanks a lot :wink:

 

[JCDenton6]

I got that HZD boost pedal that I was talking about earlier and it rocks! Its like a TS808 mixed with a vintage Boss FA-1, as in giving you the warmth of a tubescreamer, but without the honky mids

It still tightens the amp up, but keeps it sounding like a recto...a very transparent boost!