New MK V - Not enough gain? speaker? Pentode mode on MKIIc?

[Karl Houseknecht]

I just bought a MKV combo. I like what I'm hearing...at least some if it, but I have to say that I'm not getting the kind of gain out of it that I'm hearing on countless demo vids. My bridge humbucker is a Duncan SH-11 Custom Custom. Duncan lists that pickup as "high output". It's no Duncan Distortion or JB, but it's way hotter than your typical vintage pickup.

On this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iC20QNNZA

He's getting gain at half the knob's travel that I can't even get with the gain at full tilt. I'm starting to wonder if something is a bit odd with my amp.

Also, I'm hearing what sounds a bit like a rip in the speaker. It is subtle, but I can definitely hear it in my in-ears when miking the amp up, especially on clean sounds. Low frequencies seem to exacerbate it.

Another problem: If I run CH3 in pentode mode with MKIIc+ mode, it sounds like complete crap. Switching to triode sounds FAR better. However, in this video, he describes the difference as "subtle".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUBy8kCCB9k

And it sure sounds subtle in the vid. It is a night and day difference for me, however. Pentode sounds thin and anemic on that mode for me.

 

[MesaGod666]

I just bought a MKV combo. I like what I'm hearing...at least some if it, but I have to say that I'm not getting the kind of gain out of it that I'm hearing on countless demo vids. My bridge humbucker is a Duncan SH-11 Custom Custom. Duncan lists that pickup as "high output". It's no Duncan Distortion or JB, but it's way hotter than your typical vintage pickup.

On this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9iC20QNNZA

He's getting gain at half the knob's travel that I can't even get with the gain at full tilt. I'm starting to wonder if something is a bit odd with my amp.

Also, I'm hearing what sounds a bit like a rip in the speaker. It is subtle, but I can definitely hear it in my in-ears when miking the amp up, especially on clean sounds. Low frequencies seem to exacerbate it.

Another problem: If I run CH3 in pentode mode with MKIIc+ mode, it sounds like complete crap. Switching to triode sounds FAR better. However, in this video, he describes the difference as "subtle".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUBy8kCCB9k

And it sure sounds subtle in the vid. It is a night and day difference for me, however. Pentode sounds thin and anemic on that mode for me.

This is exactly what I experienced when I bought my first Mark V combo. So, first of all, swap the C90 out for a V30 in your combo. That usually will take care of what you are hearing. Also, carefully read the MARK V manual. Mesa takes great pains to make sure that everything regarding amp operation is spelled out. It is also important to adjust your settings to accomodate a high-gain output PUP. I can tell you from experience, a high-gain output bridge pup will clip anything no matter how clean the settings are (that's what they are designed to do!).

Regarding MKIIC+ setting, check your settings. Perhaps, try running one of the preset eq's. Triode is best for the MKIIC+ mode (I actually like it on all of the modes...especially EXTREME). The leads will be much more articulate and the sustain will be Godlike. Also, check your saturation settings and reconsider what you are using for PUPs. In my experience, Duncan's usually suck donkey balls. I have a personal affinity to the Gibson 500T in the bridge. Overall, DiMarizo's have a much richer tone that is more suitable for amps like the MKV. There are some other boutique pups such as Bareknuckle that are very well designed with higher quality materials that deliver a more unique and natural tone.

I didn't really check out the vids, but this is just coming from my experience with the MKV. I had problems with my combo and actually did not enjoy it at all. So, I converted it (via a Mesa certified tech) into a head and it's been perfect ever since.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

This is exactly what I experienced when I bought my first Mark V combo. So, first of all, swap the C90 out for a V30 in your combo. That usually will take care of what you are hearing.

Are you referring to the "torn speaker" sound? That's interesting that a lower wattage speaker with a looser bottom end like the V30 would take care of that. Or are you referring to the saturation? I feel like I should be getting way more gain than I am. I can get as much gain from the Extreme mode on full gain as I can from my Full-Drive 2 at max gain on a clean channel. Seems weak to me.

 

[MesaGod666]

This is exactly what I experienced when I bought my first Mark V combo. So, first of all, swap the C90 out for a V30 in your combo. That usually will take care of what you are hearing.

Are you referring to the "torn speaker" sound? That's interesting that a lower wattage speaker with a looser bottom end like the V30 would take care of that. Or are you referring to the saturation? I feel like I should be getting way more gain than I am. I can get as much gain from the Extreme mode on full gain as I can from my Full-Drive 2 at max gain on a clean channel. Seems weak to me.

Yes to the "Torn Speaker Sound." I'm a death metal guy and I felt that the C90 made my tone weak. Trust me. You cannot do enough EQing to make the speaker to sound good.

For me, it's all about frequency saturation with the Mark V. Read the manual for each setting and it will spell out exactly how to achieve focused gain and frequency saturation without cranking the gain.

Try this for a thick saturated tone:
Plug directly into the Mark V.
Switch the loop to hard bypass.
MKIIC+ Mode engaged
Make certain that Ch3 is switched to TRIODE
Set all the knobs to noon
Use the Normal Setting
Presence at 9 or 10oclock
Gain at 2oclock
Master around 8oclock
EQ to your liking.

It takes patience to learn how the amp actually works. The Treble and presence also contribute to the gain as much as the power tubes do. You really have to just slowly go through the amp and tweak it to your liking. Also, take notes of the settings for tones you like. You will always want to revisit them in the event you get lost with a muddy or mired tone (which happened to me all the time when I was a new owner).

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I generally keep my presence at zero because I don't like what it sounds like with it on at all. Treble at near noon or just above. Much more than that is harsh on the high end. I've hated V30's in the past on other amps because they are too spiky in the high end. But they work well with the MKV?

 

[MesaGod666]

I generally keep my presence at zero because I don't like what it sounds like with it on at all. Treble at near noon or just above. Much more than that is harsh on the high end. I've hated V30's in the past on other amps because they are too spiky in the high end. But they work well with the MKV?

I use a 4x12 Rectifier Standard Straight cab loaded with V30's and I love it. The V30 is a perfect fit for the MKV.

Just study the user manual and afford yourself time as you discover how the amp works.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Unfortunately, death metal's not really my style of music at all. I'm using this amp for praise & worship music, as well as classic rock. Not sure the V30 would be for me.

As far as the gain discrepancy goes, I just assumed using the same settings as Doug West did in that video that I should get somewhere near the gain and saturation he's getting, and I'm not even close. Less than half that. It's like playing an OD pedal. I've studied the manual in depth, used the same settings, etc.

Not that I use a lot of gain for what I'm playing. Just seems like I should have more on tap than what I do.

 

[MesaGod666]

Unfortunately, death metal's not really my style of music at all. I'm using this amp for praise & worship music, as well as classic rock. Not sure the V30 would be for me.

As far as the gain discrepancy goes, I just assumed using the same settings as Doug West did in that video that I should get somewhere near the gain and saturation he's getting, and I'm not even close. Less than half that. It's like playing an OD pedal. I've studied the manual in depth, used the same settings, etc.

Not that I use a lot of gain for what I'm playing. Just seems like I should have more on tap than what I do.

Right on. For what it's worth, here are my settings (TRIODE, MKIV mode)

Check out some of the tones found at ToneFinder. There are a variety of MKV tones there and it will give you an idea of the versatility the Mark V offers you.

For classic rock, the CH2 Crunch mode is pretty sick. Kind of Marshally sounding.

Honestly, I think those Duncan's may be the culprit, but I'm pretty sure if you take the time with the amp you'll find what you're looking for.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Tried your settings. It sounds...awful. Like a really bad OD pedal, not even close to a gainy sound. Am I doing something wrong here?

 

[MesaGod666]

Tried your settings. It sounds...awful. Like a really bad OD pedal, not even close to a gainy sound. Am I doing something wrong here?

WOW.

Ha. Then it's clearly time for a retube. My power tubes were garbage when I first purchased the MKV, but it sounds like what you are having is preamp tube issue. So, start there. I really like the stock mesa ruby's, but the Tung-Sol's (from what I hear) are amazing as well.

 

[MesaGod666]

This is assuming of course your amp is the issue and not anything in your signal chain (i.e. pups, instrument cables, etc).

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Ha. Then it's clearly time for a retube.

I think I'll just take it back. I've had the amp for a week. Lord knows how long it was on the showroom floor. Will have them order me a new one.

My signal chain is okay. I tried different cables, even a different guitar with a Duncan Distortion, and one guitar with Duncan Blackouts. Both are higher output than the Custom Custom.

 

[MesaGod666]

Ha. Then it's clearly time for a retube.

I think I'll just take it back. I've had the amp for a week. Lord knows how long it was on the showroom floor. Will have them order me a new one.

My signal chain is okay. I tried different cables, even a different guitar with a Duncan Distortion, and one guitar with Duncan Blackouts. Both are higher output than the Custom Custom.

Good idea. My rule of thumb is to never buy an amp unless it's still sealed inside the box. I don't have the time to pay top dollar for expensive gear that other people have used.

 

[MBJunkie]

Wow....something must be going on there Karl......most likely a faulty tube(s)?

I have owned my MkV combo for over 2 years and love the sounds that I am able to achieve from it in several modes of all 3 channels. FWIW, my amp has the standard C90 speaker and I am still using the original MB preamp tubes without issues...they are not noisy and sound great in my amp. I have experimented with using EL34's in lieu of 6L6's, but have always used MB power amp tubes in all cases. BTW....I am not saying that other tube choices or speaker choices are bad, I am just saying that I have had great tonic results using MB brand tubes, and the stock C90 speaker through my MkV combo.

I play in a cover band.....playing several styles including just about everything except metal. I am not into Metal, but feel that my V combo could cover that sound nicely if I chose to do so.

I wish you the best of luck in resolving your issue.....and I definitely do agree with MesaGod666 in studying the manual carefully to help you dial in the V to your liking.

You might also check out Haggerty's 8 part Mark V demo on this forum if you haven't already!

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

You might also check out Haggerty's 8 part Mark V demo on this forum if you haven't already!

That's one of the vids I quoted in the original post. I studied those vids extensively. Spent literally about 30 hours in the last week tweaking the thing.

Also, that Doug West Mark V vid is awesome, and trying the settings from both vids...my Mark V is obviously not working correctly. Where they get some really nice saturation, I get barely overdrive. The amp is going back in trade for a brand spanking new one. I suspect this one sat on the floor for a couple of years as a demo.

 

[MBJunkie]

Karl,

Clearly I didn't listen to the video links in your original thread. However, I did read your thread and immediately realized that something is probably wrong with the amp based on your input.

By all means, replace it with get a new one. I would do the same if I were in your shoes!!

I love my MkV combo.....and hope that you like your new one as well!

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

Update.

Took the amp back to the store and the in-house tech looked it over. He couldn't find anything wrong with it, nor could he duplicate the problem. That lead me to set up an appointment with him and attempt to duplicate the problem for him.

Drove an hour and a half to the store, plugged into the amp, and fired up the MKIIc+ mode in triode. Sounded fine. Had him switch to pentode while I was playing...and it also sounded fine. WTF??? Went through the gain range on all of the modes on channels 2 and 3. Much better. Again...WTF???

We have two theories:

1. Loose tube? Perhaps got shaken loose in transport home and again maybe shaken back into place during transport to store.
2. Defective power tube with a loose weld somewhere inside. Again, perhaps aggravated by transport, but maybe it "welded" itself back into place. Going to watch for this one. It agrees with why pentode was quieter and lacked balls. If the problem recurs, they're going to swap all the tubes out.

Tech reseated all the tubes and cleaned the pins and sockets before the amp left the store. So we'll see.

The speaker: Apparently, you really have to watch the bass frequencies on this amp, particularly with the combo. I was able to reproduce that with more bass frequencies on the clean channel. He says speaker fart. Maybe. If I plug this thing into my cab with the same speakers, I get nothing. Still not 100% convinced, but I'm going to test more.

Bottom line: watch for loose or defective tubes. There are a hell of a lot of them in there.

 

[MBJunkie]

karl,

Glad that it sounded fine after meeting with the tech!
Upon reading your latest reply....I seriously doubt either of the two theories presented.
In fact, my "guess" is that your amp has always been working as designed, but was not dialed in to achieve the great tones it can achieve.

Yes, you do need to watch the bass tone control on the V, in general, but especially when dialing in high gain sounds offered in Ch2 (MkI mode) and Ch3 (all modes). If your bass is set too high it can easily fart out and make the speaker sound torn or damaged (tone fart out is the proper term used here....LOL). Where that happens is very dependent upon what channel/mode is selected and how high the gain is turned up. As a general rule of thumb.....as the gain goes up.....the bass needs to come down. Set your bass tone knob moderately, and if you desire more bass use the GEQ sliders to bump up the low frequencies.

BTW......did you play your guitar when checking out the amp with your tech? I don't know anything about the pu's you mentioned on your guitar, but the pu's of any guitar are a huge part of how any amp sounds regardless of setting.

One final point, Don Haggerty is playing through a MkV Head with either 212 or 412 Mesa cab loaded with V30 speakers during most of his MkV demos. He is also always playing with the effects loop bypassed which also disables the overall master volume and solo boost knobs. Basically, the channel volume knobs act as the master volume for each channel the way he is demoing the amp. Some people prefer the sound of the MkV set this way.

I hope this helps and best of luck with your V!

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I seriously doubt either of the two theories presented.
In fact, my "guess" is that your amp has always been working as designed, but was not dialed in to achieve the great tones it can achieve.

I will respectfully disagree. There was a total difference in the MKIIc+ mode between taking it to the shop and getting it back. That difference between pentode and triode is correct now. My settings haven't changed one bit. Amp has more gain now too. It is FAR better than it was before across all three channels.

Yep, I did take one of my guitars with for to the tech for reference.

I did make a discovery about the speaker problem. It's not the speaker. It's the chassis rattling around. Going to see if tightening up that chassis screw behind the power tubes helps with that at all.

 

[MBJunkie]

Great! :mrgreen:

It was just my "guess" as mentioned.

Do watch the bass tone settings for high gain work because it is easy to flub out the sound if the bass is set too high.....probably more true with the combo than the head version.

Best of luck in your tone quest!