NAD: Mesa Boogie Mark VII head. WOW

[Eevil]

ahhh for the sake of conversation I will contribute 2 cents (and not a penny more)

The single channel chan dual mode provides a player the unique ability to tweak tones in a way unlike most modern amps. The cascading signal chain in lead mode with the vol 1 allows fine tuning of the gain that expands the possibilities. You can chug with the Vol 1 cranked but you can get cool cleans and edge of breakup with dialing the gains back and then everything in between. That is the advantage IMHO The granularity with these adjustments poses a compromise as yes.. constant adjustments are the norm and there is that compromise of clean vs lead live.

The modern Marks V may have that one IIC+ tone locked in, but they can't really duplicate the other areas of the IIC+ that you can tweak in.

Ah the source of never ending tweak-a-loo of my long gone Mark III - the reason I finally let it go. Clean, crunch and lead levels/tones always were impossible to get right on live environment. 1,5 -> 1 ¾ master volume bump deafened everyone and all mode volumes were off… as a corrective measure I built a pedal board with Carl Martin analog controller to have certain boost on crunch before amp for gain and in loop to raise the volume back to unity with clean and all the other modulation/delay. That was heavy as hell with other pedals plus amp and a cab.

Thanks for reminding me about this feature. Mark V is really good for me thanks.

Yet.. would be nice to test the VII or JP2C

 

[rarebitusa]

Ah the source of never ending tweak-a-loo of my long gone Mark III - the reason I finally let it go. Clean, crunch and lead levels/tones always were impossible to get right on live environment. 1,5 -> 1 ¾ master volume bump deafened everyone and all mode volumes were off… as a corrective measure I built a pedal board with Carl Martin analog controller to have certain boost on crunch before amp for gain and in loop to raise the volume back to unity with clean and all the other modulation/delay. That was heavy as hell with other pedals plus amp and a cab.

Thanks for reminding me about this feature. Mark V is really good for me thanks.

Yet.. would be nice to test the VII or JP2C

Oh yea totally get that. With the Boss GT-1000 in 4CM it is the same trickery as the analog controller, playing games with the signal levels in the loop. It is a bit better now to use the IIC+ live with the Boss but still requires compromise and sacrifice. But back in the day with discrete pedals it was a pain. Oh I still take it out to rehearsals now cause it's damn fun but live... nah.

I do find the V:90 covers everything well live. Having that dedicated clean and crunch rhythm chan is most excellent and so easy to dial in proper vol levels.

 

[little-b]

I too will probably sometime,pony up and buy a vii.Just cause I simply like all things mesa. However, I currently still use at times my two colis & my og iic+ live in my 80s band. I love rhythm 2 mode on my mkiiis.especially with the vol mod.i can balance everything out perfectly. I also like the way og mks vol 1 and lead drive work together with the push pull knobs. Many many tone and sound options here.
I was hoping before randy was gone,he'd put a mk out thar had ALL modes programmable, and the 5 band programmable- not that silly 3 mini knob approximation thing thats on the v that sounds nothing like the real 5 band...add the + and ++ options switchable,and pentode triode options.Lets leave the 2nd vol boost out..the ultimate mk amp- it'd be expensive but I'd buy...just dreaming I guess.

 

[bandit2013]

Anybody know of the original IIC+ is wooly sounding? Meaning it has more low end in its preamp you cannot get rid of. Not quite like the Dual Rectifier as that is more sub harmonic content. Talking about the more audible frequencies above 50 Hz. I can see why many dial out the bass and midrange. That trick is OK with the JP2C and Mark VII on IIC+ mode. However, it cuts too much bass and the midrange with the JP2C if taken out cuts on the gain more so than pushing up the treble control.

With the Mark VII or the JP2C, I am running the bass around 10am. Midrange at noon or higher. Mark VII I back off on the treble. Tried the Metallica settings with the treble max, bass and mids dialed out on IIC+ Mode, I could tolerate it, a bit on the bright side and too thin for me, but it did get somewhat aggressive, sounded better backing off the treble and dialing in some bass and midrange. The IIC+ reissue, I can see why it was dialed in that way. It is a beefy front end in many ways. The Mark V90 went into full ice pick mode if you moved the treble past 9am so I was unable to run that configuration on the controls like those that do not have the ice pick version of the V. That did work when I swapped in a 12AT7 for V4 but just did not have the same gain characteristic. I feel the ice pick issue with my V90 is mostly apparent with CH3 as I was able to correct the ice with tweed and edge on the other channels with a change in V1 and V3 from Mesa to Svetlana 12AX7 (copy of the tung sol/EH but lower gain).

Mesa took out the flubber in the preamp over the decades (I can only assume this is true as I have not discoverd such with the IVB, V or VII). I do not recall of the Mark III had this characteristic. Sort of wonder about the JP2C as that was Mesa's attempt on a reissue of the IIC+. So did the HRG have ample low end like this recent reissue of the IIC+? I just do not hear that with the JP2C as I would have noticed that immediately. I would not doubt they refined the tone stack and changed one or two cathode bypass caps to make the preamp and tone stack more usable. May also explain why the JP2C midrange control can boost the gain. I cannot get that effect with the Mark VII or the Mark V90. However, since the Mark VII and JP2C do have some similar characteristics to the Mark V90, it may be safe to assume the V1B bypass cap is either omitted (different value), switched or defined by what channel/mode is selected. Actually, I would like to know how the JP2C is so different since the midrange control has that gain effect which sounds great. Just not as reactive with the the Mark VII or even the V90. Will see if the IIC+ reissue has a similar effect as I have not explored its full potential.

 

[Jamme1961]

Just got the VII - I had ordered the IIC+ twice and canceled- I already have the IIB with effects loop mod so couldn’t justify almost 4 grand for a IIC+ - only picked up the 7 because of a great price new. Only had about a half hour last night but love all the modes - all useable- definitely impressed with the clean mode- did not expect it to be so great - love it
IIB mode is going to be killer for me too - I’m classic rock guy- when you pull it out of the box and see the size and quality of it- I have the head - blows me away - the only suck thing is getting the power cord in - WTF - otherwise-
Mesa did a fantastic job on this one IMHO

 

[AtomicBlaze]

Just got the VII - I had ordered the IIC+ twice and canceled- I already have the IIB with effects loop mod so couldn’t justify almost 4 grand for a IIC+ - only picked up the 7 because of a great price new. Only had about a half hour last night but love all the modes - all useable- definitely impressed with the clean mode- did not expect it to be so great - love it
IIB mode is going to be killer for me too - I’m classic rock guy- when you pull it out of the box and see the size and quality of it- I have the head - blows me away - the only suck thing is getting the power cord in - WTF - otherwise-
Mesa did a fantastic job on this one IMHO

I like the Mark VII a lot more in person than what I heard from youtube demos, I think a lot of demos had the treble maxed which is too bright on the Mark VII on channel 3. I also canceled my Mark C+ RI in favor of the Mark VII, I am really happy with my decision. I also have my Axe FX III in the loop for post EQ and effects, which works great since I can also use it with the MIDI for channel switching.

 

[Jamme1961]

I like the Mark VII a lot more in person than what I heard from youtube demos, I think a lot of demos had the treble maxed which is too bright on the Mark VII on channel 3. I also canceled my Mark C+ RI in favor of the Mark VII, I am really happy with my decision. I also have my Axe FX III in the loop for post EQ and effects, which works great since I can also use it with the MIDI for channel switching.

Yea just started getting into it but I too am running treble at 10 o’clock and using mids more - but babysitting today- I’m a grandpa so only like 30 minutes on it

 

[little-b]

Anybody know of the original IIC+ is wooly sounding?

My 84' iic+ is super tight on the bottom.if anything,in retrospect it may be lacking a bit of bottom compared to my colis' or mkiv tho.My og is definitely not wooly,if you mean by that kinda loose or flubby on the bottom?

 

[bandit2013]

My 84' iic+ is super tight on the bottom.if anything,in retrospect it may be lacking a bit of bottom compared to my colis' or mkiv tho.My og is definitely not wooly,if you mean by that kinda loose or flubby on the bottom?

Not necessarily flubby but almost sound like it could get there. Wooly in warm sounding woofy in a dog just giving you a low woof with not much growl or bark. What amp I have that got flubby is the Mark V90 if you had too much bass. Mark VII, JP2C and if not mistaken, the Mark III you had some control on pushing the low end from the tone stack without flubbing out the power section. Sure, the GEQ helps too. Perhaps poor word choice due to my limited vocabulary since wooly, flubby and woofy are not recognized words. (never mind, wooly is not underscored with the wavy red line).

 

[bandit2013]

Finally got around to running the JP2C alongside to the Reissue IIC+. I just learned that my sound memory is not Memorex quality. I admit, I sort of went on a Mesa boycott while waiting for the IIC+ Reissue to be delivered. That was a long wait. Sure, I did play through the MWDR and Roadster briefly, used the Badlander most of the time, and did make use of one Mark VII, and then two of them. Normally, this wall is not as baren as shown. Either three 412 cabs would be out or two and any array of amps. For some time it was two BAD and two Mark VII. Most of the wall was displaced as I am using one of the power strips elsewhere in the home. Need to get a replacement so I can bring back the one I had, it was great for the power warts since the terminals were oriented differently and I could fill up every position on it. The Furman power strip, the power supplies take up more than two plug positions so I am limited what I can run. Also did not feel like putting the Strymon BigSky on the floor. I had the MX version out so I need to make adjustments but the older unit was just fine as it was. Blah, blah, blah. What is the point?

This I did not think was possible. It has been some time since I ran the JP2C. At least 2 months. I do know the IIC+ mode of CH3 on the Mark VII is practically dead on to CH2 of the JP2C. The Mark IV mode is very much on par with CH3 of the JP2C. And when slaving one into the other they sound the same, meaning the Mark VII (IIC+) preamp sound identical to CH2 (JP2C) through its Class AB power section. Going the other way, the JP2C CH2 sound just like the IIC+ mode of CH3 when forcing it into the Simul-Class power section. There is no question of a doubt that the preamps are practically on par with each other and the difference in tone is due to the power tube output design. 100W Class AB is a bit darker, Simul Class full pentode 90W seems to have an added presence to it.

First thoughts from the Reissue, it is different. I could not be so wrong. WTF? It sounds identical to the JP2C. With the amp on CH2 and the gain control pushed in, it is supposed to be in the range of Vol 1 control at 6 based on the description in the manual. I did not run the pulled gain to see if it is similar to the IIC+ with the vol 1 at 7.25. CH3 with the gain pushed in is supposed to be at the same range, more like 7.5 on the vol 1 control. When pulled out it is to be a match for a vol 1 setting of 9. Well, they did not lie in the JP2C manual and I suppose the Reissue IIC+ is as close as it gets. It all seems to be accurate descriptions. Since most pots have a 270° angle of movement on average, I found the #5 on the control dial to be about the same location of the line on the controls used with the JP2C. Not sure they are the same value but for a rotational reference, that is what I used.

The Reissue IIC+ does have one characteristic, the lower mids that seem to be dominant are more forward sounding than they are with the JP2C. I can hear them and they sound about the same. Think of the sound spectrum in a 3D point of view. More forward, is closer to you as if you can touch it, not nested in the background or too rearward. I would not say it is displeasing to hear, it actually sounds cool in a way. Similar to the Royal Atlantic with the stock EL34 tubes, the upper mids are more forward and have more influence on what you hear. Change to the SED =C=EL34 (Mesa STR442) and that sound changes to a more 3D characteristic and what was too forward is now blended in with the rest of the sonic characteristics. Not sure if this forward effrect of the lower mids is a factor of the STR445 power tubes. It could be. What I have loaded in the JP2C are NOS STR415 I bought direct from Mesa two years ago. I got them the same time I was able to get a quad of STR448 (TAD red Base 6L6GC tubes). I gave up on the STR443 tubes (they had limits on them in terms of gain characteristics, made the gain control sound like they are not working). STR440 (grey) were the original tubes that came in the 2016 JP2C. Still like them but that give off a random static sound, assume issue with the cathode spitting off or boiling off too many electrons periodically, same tubes work great in the MWDR.

Anyhow, I am beginning to warm up to the reissue IIC+. Getting used to the amp being near full volume with the master set to 3, it is similar to the Mark VII set at 9am. I well roll out the Mark VII tomorrow. I am sure it will have some similar traits with the IIC+ and IV modes. It will not be able to do the crunch, VII, IIB modes. Just for it being a DAD amp, I pushed in the lead drive to run on clean with the settings I had to compare to CH3 on the JP2C and ran the JP in clean, JP was more pristine clean, what I had dialed in on the RI IIC+ was a light bit of grit but very close. OK, as both are reissue amps of the IIC+, I can assume they are much on par with the original IIC+ of their respective HRG/DRG formats. The reason why I did not get a second JP2C, I favored the wider field of gain structures of the Mark VII. Also the reason why I have two Badlanders. However, now that I have the IIC+ Reissue, it is much the same as the JP2C but without the cab-clone, midi and separated settings into the appearance of three channels, it is much like having another JP2C. Interesting to note I was running both FX loops into one Strymon BigSky reverb. They were both operating at the same level and not competing for dominance. Mark VII was a bit more influential over the JP2C so it did not play well in stereo unless it was another Mark VII (another reason why I have two).

Cool that the Reissue IIC+ is much the same as the JP2C but with more caveman controls vs having independent controls for simplicity. I do not see having one over the other as an advantage. The overall tone of the reissue does have a nice forward dry sounding lower midrange content that can either bother you or please you. Not muddy in any way which is another term for flubby. I am sort of liking this new toy the more I play through it. Now that it was discovered to be on a familiar ground with the JP2C, I am pleased it was not an ice pick like the Mark V90 I have. Still feel the Mark VII had more to it. I would miss the Mark VII and crunch modes. Different but cool in their own way much like a Badlander but different.

 

[AtomicBlaze]

I feel like my Mark VII is a little drier sounding in C+ mode, with slightly more definition in the low end than the JP2C. The JP2C is a little more 3D and richer sounding, with more low mids. I do think the preamps are close to identical in certain settings when comparing the Mark VII to channel 2 of the JP2C especially if the EQ is not engaged on either. I feel like the increased low mids come from the EQ circuit on the JP2C because when the EQ is off they sound so much closer. Maybe because the Mark V and Mark VII are modeled after the non-eq version of the Mark IIC+?

 

[rarebitusa]

However, now that I have the IIC+ Reissue, it is much the same as the JP2C but without the cab-clone, midi and separated settings into the appearance of three channels, it is much like having another JP2C.

I do wonder what differences you hear with the Simulclass of the RI vs the 100/60 of the JP2C. I know my IIC+ is much different when running the preamp into the V:90 90W Simulclass.

I don't have a JP2C but it's clean chan is pretty pristine clean as per JP himself. It is what he wanted in the initial design. I do think the IIC+ OG chan 1 has got that bit of grit always there, even with Vol 1 and Treb down at 5. You can clean it up but the input is very sensitive to PU vol.

 

[Jamme1961]

Reading all this makes me very happy in my decision to cancel IIC+ and buy the VII - thanks

 

[bandit2013]

I feel like my Mark VII is a little drier sounding in C+ mode, with slightly more definition in the low end than the JP2C. The JP2C is a little more 3D and richer sounding, with more low mids. I do think the preamps are close to identical in certain settings when comparing the Mark VII to channel 2 of the JP2C especially if the EQ is not engaged on either. I feel like the increased low mids come from the EQ circuit on the JP2C because when the EQ is off they sound so much closer. Maybe because the Mark V and Mark VII are modeled after the non-eq version of the Mark IIC+?

Sure, why not. The IIC+ circuit has been used since its inception throughout the years. Some mods here and there, how the lead drive circuit is contained in one tube or separated into two tubes (it uses two triodes and each tube has two). Mark III was combined, IIC+, IVB, V, JP2C and VII it is separated. Weather the GEQ is in the circuit or not, makes no difference. GEQ location may make a difference. IIC+, III, IVA, IVB, JP2C, VII and reissue IIC+, the GEQ follows the FX loop. Mark V90, V:25 and V:35, the GEQ is in front of the FX loop, also used to generate the SEND level for the loop. Send is not tube buffered. Return is though.

As for the JP2C having two GEQ circuits, the components are different. More compact. I can get close but seems like there is more change with the Mark VII or Mark V GEQ than with the JP2C. But that may be in relation to the IIC+ circuit. The reissue is not that far off to the JP2C which I thought was rather interesting.

The Mark V adds in two extra triode stages, one to compensate for the GEQ location change in the signal path, and to pad or buffer the next gain stage that defines the IV, IIC and Extreme modes. How the fixed resistance voltage divider used to replace the Volume 1 control also plays an important role. The Mark V runs a fixed set of resistance to simulate the Volume 1 control and does not reconfigure for the three different modes. Not so sure about the Mark VII, I believe it may reconfigure something to get the difference between the IIC and IV modes. It could be with the change in that voltage divider or perhaps it takes out a grid stopper resistor like the V does on the final gain stage for IV mode. Hard to say as do not have the schematic for the VII to see how it is configured.

 

[bandit2013]

I am not regretting anything yet. Sure, the expense of the purchase is about as painful as it gets. This reissue is sort of interesting in many ways I did not expect. It cannot replicate the crunch or VII modes. I have not explored how much grind I can get from the clean channel either. Mark VII can dial up some nice crunch on clean or fat as an alternative grinder if you want that sound. Even the IIB is more of a mellowed out version. More flexible sonic pallet with the Mark VII. Just figuring out how to make use of it is the difficult part. I am a simple minded person when it comes to playing guitar, rarely do I bother to change channels if just a twist on the guitar volume control gives me what I want. Dynamics for me is key to my happiness.

One thing to point out. The master is much like the older design. At a setting of 3, you are basically at max level. I pushed it up to 6, not much changed, perhaps a slight bit more compressed. Did this in 25W power mode. I had to set the Mark VII with a channel master at 11am, JP2C probably at 1pm to be on the same SPL level. Much like the good old Mark III. Even the Mark IV had a max limit for the channel master around the same point, beyond that it did not contribute to becoming louder. The 75W power mode is no slouch either, it is much at the same loudness of the Mark VII on 90W or full power of the JP2C. Yeah, this amp will be king with the EVM12L speaker. Have not pulled it out yet. Sort of suffering hearing loss and fatigue. At least the amp sounds great, a bit warmer toned than the Mark VII. I am happy I did not return it. Did consider doing so but nah, it is slightly different so I will hang on to it and see what else I can discover when I try different speakers and power tubes. Have a few Mesa branded tubes to play with. STR440 (all colors), STR448 (red, yellow grey), STR441 (green) STR443 (grey) STR415 (green, they are all green). May even try the 1990's Mesa 7025/12AX7 Bejing Square Foil getter tubes/ aka Chinse Military grade 6N4-J tubes). Right now it has whatever Mesa is using these days. I assume they are JJ ECC83s tubes.

Mark VII, JP2C and even the reissue IIC+ are very closely related. I just got done blowing my eardrums out with the Mark VII and the IIC+ comparison.
IIC+ mode of the Mark VII is much on par with the JP2C as it is with the IIC+ reissue. The only difference is the lower mids that seem to stick out with the reissue is also there with the other two amps but more blended into the full sound and not out front in your face. I tried to have the GEQ circuits set the same (similar pattern at best). I have turned off the GEQ of the reissue, did not make much of a difference. The Mark VII and JP2C, you notice when it is turned off.
Also struggled to get the IIC+ Reissue to match the Mark IV mode. It is similar to the CH3 of the JP2C and the gain pulled out. So it was a stretch to reach the same level of gain and compression with the Reissue. The closer I got lead to instant feedback. Some may say the JP2C has more gain than the VII, I beg to differ as the IV mode has more saturation of grind. Give or take a shredder's tear or two. They are about the same and after my hearing in the left ear began to fail it seemed that all three Marks seem to be on par with each other. This did not seem that it was possible after hearing the IIC+ for the first time, and since I was sick for a week or so I have not had much exposure to playing anything let alone a guitar. I was so enthusiastic when the Reissue arrived, I wanted to return it without opening the box. I sort of lost interest after spending the money and waiting so long for it to arrive. Anyhow, Pushed the VII mode against the IIC+ after trying to match the IV mode, yeah, about the same deal with the JP2C. Sure, crunch was out of phase and weaker as expected. I bought a second Mark VII so when switching channels I do not have to reach down on the Mesa Switch track to filp the phase. Also a good pairing with the Badlander as I said before.

I did not run 25W mode though. Compared the 75W to the 90W. It did not seem to change much, both amps seemed to be about the same level of stupid loud. The Mark VII does have a dual pot for the master volume control for each channel. One I assume is a volume control before the FX loop and the other is after. JP2C is a single pot so the send level is basically a fixed level to what ever it is set too, the channel master is after the FX loop but in front of the GEQ since it resides on the recovery stage of the FX loop return. Reissue has one extra master, the lead master. I assume that is more or less on the send side and the master is after the FX loop. Wonder what sets the send level when the amp is not running in the lead mode. I guess that falls onto Volume 1. I do not feel much like poking around in the new amp. Interest or curiosity is just not there.

The Money is spent now. Was it worth it? Probably not. I am cheep. However, if the product has the quality of parts and workmanship I prefer to get from a builder, sure, the cost was worth it considering what is out there in a similar market if we think of this as a boutique amp. Mesa has yet to let me down in workmanship, overall quality. Sure, I may have had an issue with only one amp to date. All of the others I bought over the past since 1989 have been keepers, but I did sell off the Mark III due to lack of interest in playing the guitar and was getting out of it completely until a life changing event occurred just after I sold it. No point in bringing that up. Anyhow, the reissue took me by surprise. Was not quite sure where it fit tone-wise as it seemed different than the other Mark amps. I had stopped playing guitar for a while, too cold to play and got sick, still suffering from what ever made me ill, now loosing hearing again. Oh joy. Hearing loss not due to loud music.

Getting the other amps out to see how this reissue stacks up. A decent match for the other IIC+ Reissue that came out in 2016, JP2C signature amp. I no longer have a need to buy a second one to run in stereo. This reissue was a perfect match. Meaning the send levels from the FX are on par with that of the JP2C so I can make use of a single stereo FX unit that has left and right channels (with some sharing of digital reflections) and it sound great. Even when switching from one amp to the other or running both (Mesa Switch track) I get that great sound from both amps.

Mark VII was not a perfect match for stereo with the Reissue or even the JP2C. That is why I got the second Mark VII. Sure, I can run a full stereo and a dry center channel with the JP2C and all will be fine If I stick with clean, fat, VII, IIC and IV and all will remain in phase. Not sure which amp had a stronger output level since the Strymon BigSky auto adjusts to the first signal it gets, not sure if it is left/right channel specific. The Reissue had dominance on the loop levels. However, ignoring the stereo fx limitations, the Mark VII and Reissue were also on the same level of sound quality and workmanship as found with the JP2C when comparing like channels or modes. I have no regrets buying the Reissue. It is overkill in one way as I feel I already have this covered with the JP2C in some ways but yet it is slightly different in the lower midrange being as forward as it is. I am taking it in as a plus. Much better than getting stuck with an ice pick and trying to figure out how to fix it (Reference to the 2012 Mark V90 I have regrets on buying).

 

[bandit2013]

I do wonder what differences you hear with the Simulclass of the RI vs the 100/60 of the JP2C. I know my IIC+ is much different when running the preamp into the V:90 90W Simulclass.

I don't have a JP2C but it's clean chan is pretty pristine clean as per JP himself. It is what he wanted in the initial design. I do think the IIC+ OG chan 1 has got that bit of grit always there, even with Vol 1 and Treb down at 5. You can clean it up but the input is very sensitive to PU vol.

The two amps sound very close when running full power.
JP2C seems to lose some tone when running at 60W. Not just in volume but seems to have a tone shift. Mesa recommends using the 4 ohm jack for 8 ohm loads when using the 60W mode as this corrects for the issue. Did not notice much of a difference between 75W and 25W. Almost thought nothing was changing at all with the switch. Yeah, it does drop down a bit but hard to tell the difference. Same thing with the Mark VII. There was more of a change with the JP2C going from 100W to 60W than there was with the Reissue or Mark VII power modes. I know you know the 100W/60W are still running in Class AB. Simul-class is just dropping out the class AB tube pair and using the extended Class A push-pull pair to keep things going. Funny that I do not get the same effect with the RA100, MWDR, Roadster, BAD when dropping from 100W to 50W. Just a slight shift in volume but the tone remains much the same or becomes more aggressive. JP2C it sounds dull in 60W mode compared to 100W. Never tried moving the speaker cable to the 4 ohm position as the manual recommends.