Metallica tone (sorry..)

[Paw]

Hey! I just got my (new ) Mark IV yesterday and it sound amazing (especially the cleans). The problem is that I really can't get enough gain out of the lead channel for good old Metallica tones.. I know this question has been up on the board a thousand times, and for that I'm sorry .. I feel I've done my homework here. I've read about how the gain stages work and stuff, and I can get a kind of semi-metal tone, but not Metallica hi-gain. I live wall to wall with my neighbours so I have to keep the volume low. Do I need to crank it to get the crushing distortion?

Thanks m8s

 

[Paw]

Another thing that I find weird is that I can only see 4 preamp tubes in there. Where's the 5th?

 

[mrd]

I think the 5th one is sorta hidden away, it's the phase inverter I do believe.

What are your settings? Try these for low volume jammin:

Lead gain: 8-9 pulled
Treble: 7.5. More if you want more gain but careful, it will get hairy quickly.
Mids: At low volume you could crank them to 10, or leave them high, around 7.
Bass: 0-2. I usually leave it at 1.
Lead Drive: 8. Pull it if you want but you will have to back off the gain too if you do this otherwise you will probably feedback.
Volume: 1
Output Volume: 3-5
Presence: At low volumes, I would pull it and leave it around 4.5-6.

This is on full power, pentode, class A. If you go to triode you can probably push the volume a bit more.

As for the EQ, at this low of a volume, you can crank the 80hz slider to max and get a nice meaty low end. The next slider is broad, be careful. There is a very, very fine line between **** and good. I find that when the 80hz slider is cranked, the 200hz slider is very touchy. I usually have it about 1cm above the center line, but play with it. Even like 0.5mm of change will alter your tone drastically. The 750hz slider I put about half way to the bottom. Again, this one is touchy, and this is the knob that will make or break the definition of your guitar. For Metallica tones, scoop it enough to bring the appearance of hugeness, but not so much that your guitar loses clarity. Again, play with it. The next slider I usually put about 0.5cm above the middle line or so, and the 6600hz slider I will put anywhere from just above the middle line to about half way up. Careful with this one too, it can make your tone sound very brittle if you aren't careful.

Also, keep it mind your guitars, pups, etc. Metallica uses EMGs which are super-hot pickups. A lot of the tightness and compression comes from that aspect.

Hope it helps.

But seriously, if you want Metallica, know what you gotta do? Lead volume & Master Volume = 10 on full power, pentode and simul-class. Then play.

 

[zakkinc]

Try a some more EQ, I know most people knock the use of EQ (or excessive use of...) but for low volumes it's a necessity.

I use a 10 Band MXR & a 7 Band Boss in my FX loop with my C+ (now check this post: http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?p=197844#197844

BUT, I had a Mark IV (which I loved) and I also used a similar set up. I'm telling you it's all about the EQ it'll bring tones out that normally would come out unless you crank the amp.

I forget the pull options on the Mark IV (I think I had everything pulled) but try these:

Treble 8
Bass 2
Mid 2
Presence 5
Drive 7
Adjust Volume according to the level you want.
I went Class A/Triode/Tweed Power
Set your EQ like: http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/3701/markiiceqao7.jpg

Try these and with some more EQ in the FX Loop that'll allow you to achiev e a killer Hetfield tone at lower volumes. But if you want the real deal you gotta crank it up thru a 4X12 closed back.

If you have the option, rent a couple EQ's or borrow from a friend and see what I mean, if it works out they're relatively inexpensive.

BUT I use 2 but each with different frequencies...so I have a 7 band and a 10 band it's basically like using one 17 band EQ, make sure you don't frequencies that over lap (ex. 125MHZ on each pedal rather have a 100MHZ and 125MHZ) check my EQ's in the above link I gave you.

Then shape your EQ pedals around the 5 Band EQ settings I show above...

Hope this helps! Lemme know if there's any confusion, I've been chasin that tone for ever and I think I'm pretty close with what I got (and was very close with my Mark IV too!).

 

[Esromeron]

I've been seeing a lot of "not enough gain" posts lately and would like to put my thought behind this. Realistically your probably using too much gain when playing by yourself, and you would probably be surprised about how little gain that Metallica used (still a lot though \../, ). Try playing with a band or recording over some backing tracks and you'll hear what I mean. You'll end up using less gain. I think in a bedroom and by yourself setting with out all the other instruments you try to fill that missing sound with more gain. Keep in mind though that this is fully my perspective from personal experience and that it is totally subjective to my hearing.

 

[Paw]

Thanks for the reply guys! I have tried your settings and it really brought out some better tones (and more usable gain). I'm using passive pickups in my guitars so I wont get the boost of an active pu. Petrucci uses passive pickups with the mark iv and he gets a very heavy good tone though anyone got his settings btw?

I also have a Marshall JVM, which have TONS of gain (more than I'll ever use), so maybe it has made me a bit used to unlimited amounts..

Btw, how's the IIC+ compared to the IV? Was initially trying to get a one, but it was a bit of a hassle so I ended up with the IV

 

[zakkinc]

I've been seeing a lot of "not enough gain" posts lately and would like to put my thought behind this. Realistically your probably using too much gain when playing by yourself, and you would probably be surprised about how little gain that Metallica used (still a lot though \../, ). Try playing with a band or recording over some backing tracks and you'll hear what I mean. You'll end up using less gain. I think in a bedroom and by yourself setting with out all the other instruments you try to fill that missing sound with more gain. Keep in mind though that this is fully my perspective from personal experience and that it is totally subjective to my hearing.

This is very true, I would have to agree. Trying to obtain a "Studio tone" tor a "Live Tone" at bedroom levels is all very apples and oranges in the sense that they are two completely different elements, especially to Esromeron's point when playing alone versus in a band...but again I do agree, but also feel that more gain at lower volumes does help achieve that sound that one is after...my opinion also.

 

[zakkinc]

The C+ in my opinion has a bid more gain, but is mainly more focused and smoother. I have a 60/100 Watt C+ and a III Simul Class Blue Stripe currently...I have also owned a Mark IV Widebody combo. The C+ nails the tone I'm after (Hetfield type crunch) but the Mark IV is also very close and by far the most versatile if seeking a wide range of tones, however, the C+ is also versatile. I'd count the III out, I would trade it for a Mark IV any day...

Couple other tips if your going for that Metallica tone: EMG's are a MUST. Also, playing thru a 4X12 CLOSED BACK cab is also a MUST (I would suggest V30's as used in the Recto's cabs)...a Mahogany body wouldn't hurt either, can always get a Les Paul fairly easily even an Epiphone if you wanna keep costs down...but then again, you have a Mark IV so why not go all out and get an ESP or Gibson.

 

[zakkinc]

Also to Esromeron's point on gain...check this out: http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?t=15304&highlight=metallica

You'll see how low James' has his Treble & Drive (basically his main gain feeds) settings...but if you try those at low volumes it sounds like crap, barely heavy enough to play Zeppelin (joke) even, but crank the volume and you got some Hetfield crunch!

Just thought I'd share...

 

[Paw]

Yeah, I have several guitars. I have an Ibanez Universe, a jem and a Petrucci P1. I also own 2 jacksons; a sl2h mahogany body, and an alder DK2 which is heavily modified with OFR and Duncan pu's. So the next guitar on my list is definitely an EMG-equipped one (I like to keep my precious guitars stock)..

 

[nathan28]

You are going to have to boost it, you need to slam the front end of that amp to get the gain/tightness you want. I have three guitars, one of them equipped with emg's. You can tell by my icon i love metallica, i use to be a emg fanboy, but you dont at all need emg's to get the metallica crunch or tightness. All you need is a good boost.

 

[zakkinc]

Yeah, but I think the palm muted notes with EMG's are night and day versus passive...that's where the difference is, like for example the Versus riff in Puppets may sound great with or without EMG's but when you get into the intro to Blackened or Dyers Eve EMG's are key....my opinion.

But, what do you mean slam the front end of the amp? I've heard of that but haven't tried getting into that...any suggestions in terms of gear/setup?

 

[boola]

I can't think that anyone could need more gain than the markIV can deliver.

Try lead gain and drive pulled @ 10. Then work back from there

The MarkIV overdrive is smooth and warm compared to a marshall. It might be that you are wanting more treble, not gain. If you record the sound, I expect you'll find it sounds amazing.

Another thing you can do is mess around with different preamp valves, you can change the type and amount of gain + tone that way.

 

[Esromeron]

But, what do you mean slam the front end of the amp? I've heard of that but haven't tried getting into that...any suggestions in terms of gear/setup?

What he means is with a clean boost pedal (Overdrive). I myself used to LOVE EMG's for that old MetallicA tone, but EMGs are so one dimensional. When you can achieve the same sound plus some with a compression pedal and a overdrive pedal, why limit yourself with the EMGs? But with an Overdrive pedal you can add that tightness and hair to distortion thats just killer. I suggest a Maxon OD808 or Fulltone OCD, both are amazing at boosting while keeping original tone (unlike an un-modded Boss DS-1 etc.).

 

[jdurso]

I've been seeing a lot of "not enough gain" posts lately and would like to put my thought behind this. Realistically your probably using too much gain when playing by yourself, and you would probably be surprised about how little gain that Metallica used (still a lot though \../, ). Try playing with a band or recording over some backing tracks and you'll hear what I mean. You'll end up using less gain. I think in a bedroom and by yourself setting with out all the other instruments you try to fill that missing sound with more gain. Keep in mind though that this is fully my perspective from personal experience and that it is totally subjective to my hearing.

+1

relisten to MOP, Ride or Justice and what you'll be suprised about is how little gain there really is. MOP has a very dry/crisp tone thats not overly diluted with gain but instead has the right eq to get a massive bass and the right top end to add the crunch. i like to think of the mark iv as one of the ultimate eq'ing amps out there. it doesnt rely on massive amount og gain to get the massive crunch you see in the rectos... the mark is the master of massive sounds via exploiting the right frequencies. dont get me wrong the amp is chock full of gain but to get the tones your after is getting the eqs down and getting the frequency recipe just right

 

[nathan28]

What he means is with a clean boost pedal (Overdrive). I myself used to LOVE EMG's for that old MetallicA tone, but EMGs are so one dimensional. When you can achieve the same sound plus some with a compression pedal and a overdrive pedal, why limit yourself with the EMGs? But with an Overdrive pedal you can add that tightness and hair to distortion thats just killer. I suggest a Maxon OD808 or Fulltone OCD, both are amazing at boosting while keeping original tone (unlike an un-modded Boss DS-1 etc.).

Couldn't have said it better. I've tried a bunch of different boosts and I currently use the Fulltone OCD. It's a fantastic pedal. No matter how much gain my amp has, i back the gain down and add a front end boost. That always tightens it up and kicks the dynamics into gear.

 

[Silverwulf]

Petrucci uses passive pickups with the mark iv and he gets a very heavy good tone though anyone got his settings btw?

From the Systematic Chaos tour:

http://johnpetrucci.com/images/gear/TopMK4Settings.jpg

http://johnpetrucci.com/images/gear/BottomMK4Settings.jpg


And you don't need a boost pedal for Metallica. Metallica hasn't used boost pedals for rhythms since "Ride the Lightning." You can easily nail the Metallica tone going straight into your Mark IV, and like mentioned earlier, it's not as high gain as you might think.

 

[Paw]

Omg! this many replies in such a short time.. I feel that my Mark IV is welcome here 8) I got some really good metal tones out of it yesterday (because of your help), and today I´m gonna experiment some more with it. Too bad I can´t crank it.

And thanks for the Petrucci settings man!

 

[zakkinc]

Check this link out, try these settings, there's a sound clip somewhere in this link too!

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?p=47471#47471

 

[Kaz]

I've been seeing a lot of "not enough gain" posts lately and would like to put my thought behind this. Realistically your probably using too much gain when playing by yourself, and you would probably be surprised about how little gain that Metallica used (still a lot though \../, ). Try playing with a band or recording over some backing tracks and you'll hear what I mean. You'll end up using less gain. I think in a bedroom and by yourself setting with out all the other instruments you try to fill that missing sound with more gain. Keep in mind though that this is fully my perspective from personal experience and that it is totally subjective to my hearing.

+1

relisten to MOP, Ride or Justice and what you'll be suprised about is how little gain there really is. MOP has a very dry/crisp tone thats not overly diluted with gain but instead has the right eq to get a massive bass and the right top end to add the crunch. i like to think of the mark iv as one of the ultimate eq'ing amps out there. it doesnt rely on massive amount og gain to get the massive crunch you see in the rectos... the mark is the master of massive sounds via exploiting the right frequencies. dont get me wrong the amp is chock full of gain but to get the tones your after is getting the eqs down and getting the frequency recipe just right

+1,000,000!!!!

Keep the gain low, use a nice, transparent boost, and EQ and you've got the recipe for ultimate WIN. I think people abuse GAIN way too much, because they confuse GAIN with TONE.

It's the same with bass...a lot of people think that metally crunch-click bass sound (I dunno how to describe it) comes from bass OD. Maybe a little of it. The rest of it is very notched EQing (via use of parametric EQs).