Metallica speakers
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Silverwulf
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"No answer here" means some of us have better things to do with our time than to entertain internet trolls. Choose to believe it or not, it's your choice, and quite frankly no one cares if you do. This was straight from a chat session with Flemming, who I talked with before the infamous notes from those sessions were made public. When the notes came out, it further backed Flemming's recollection in his own notes.
If you have a better source, post away, though at this stage of the game 30 years later, I think word from the horses mouth and personal notes backing that recollection is about as accurate of info as anyone will ever get.
In the meantime, I'll go back to my troll free existence and pop in on occasion. Carry on... 8)
If you have a better source, post away, though at this stage of the game 30 years later, I think word from the horses mouth and personal notes backing that recollection is about as accurate of info as anyone will ever get.
In the meantime, I'll go back to my troll free existence and pop in on occasion. Carry on... 8)
ryjan
Well-known member
Don't feed the trolls. Just add them to your ignore list. 8)
Here is my source, Rasmussen himself :
"Flemming Rasmussen: Well we first discussed it together about what they wanted to sound like in and how to go about achieving it, but I have to say there were a lot of guitar amp issues at first. On the first album we did together, Ride The Lightning we had a problem with James' amp. It was stolen a week before they entered the studio to start tracking. They were on tour when it happened. Now somebody in San Francisco had modified the amp but nobody knew what he had done. So what we did was we got all of the people we knew that played metal music and had good Marshall amps and cabs, we got them to come to the studio with their amps and cabs and we simply tried them until we found one that we thought sounded good. Once we found it, we started looking at mics."
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/int..._the_albums_to_sound_as_loud_as_possible.html
I would add also this from Michael Doyle Marshall books :
https://books.google.fr/books?id=E9...I9rWDw-vJyAIVi1YaCh2yvgE2#v=onepage&q&f=false
you could see that, between 82 and 85 you can get for a 4x12 1960A/B cabs only two speakers :
79-83 : G65M (Almost 40 variations of these was produced, it was a major step for Celestion in term of power handling, climbing from 25 watts to 65 watts !)
83-86 : G70M (next version of the G65, same magnet and rare)
It's only until 86 The GT75 was pushed in Marshall cab.
So who's the troll now ? Carry on...
"Flemming Rasmussen: Well we first discussed it together about what they wanted to sound like in and how to go about achieving it, but I have to say there were a lot of guitar amp issues at first. On the first album we did together, Ride The Lightning we had a problem with James' amp. It was stolen a week before they entered the studio to start tracking. They were on tour when it happened. Now somebody in San Francisco had modified the amp but nobody knew what he had done. So what we did was we got all of the people we knew that played metal music and had good Marshall amps and cabs, we got them to come to the studio with their amps and cabs and we simply tried them until we found one that we thought sounded good. Once we found it, we started looking at mics."
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/int..._the_albums_to_sound_as_loud_as_possible.html
I would add also this from Michael Doyle Marshall books :
https://books.google.fr/books?id=E9...I9rWDw-vJyAIVi1YaCh2yvgE2#v=onepage&q&f=false
you could see that, between 82 and 85 you can get for a 4x12 1960A/B cabs only two speakers :
79-83 : G65M (Almost 40 variations of these was produced, it was a major step for Celestion in term of power handling, climbing from 25 watts to 65 watts !)
83-86 : G70M (next version of the G65, same magnet and rare)
It's only until 86 The GT75 was pushed in Marshall cab.
So who's the troll now ? Carry on...
Since this thread has been going on, I didn't want dafxtone's misinformation above to be the last word in this thread.
The G12T-75 was first used in the 1960 cab in 1984.
Look at Serial # 5660 in either of these links:
http://www.marstran.com/cabdata/cabdata.html
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sriUbork-2Aiuxpjk2j0lA4LOaI3TgngbhFlaEmBddY/pub
The G12T-75 was first used in the 1960 cab in 1984.
Look at Serial # 5660 in either of these links:
http://www.marstran.com/cabdata/cabdata.html
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sriUbork-2Aiuxpjk2j0lA4LOaI3TgngbhFlaEmBddY/pub
Silverwulf
Well-known member
I don't check here often, hard to believe this discussion is still going on... :lol:
Flemming's notes themselves point to 300W Marshall cabs on MoP, and he's listed the serial numbers of those cabs. G12T-75 cabs with serial numbers below and above those cabs can be spotted frequently, which all points to - yes - G12T-75's being used on MoP.
And yes, G12T cabs started appearing on late '83 and '84. I used to have an '83 dated G12T-75 cab, which were 15 ohm vented speakers.
Folks can choose to believe what they wish. You can either spend your free time digging up obscure quotes trying to find something you'll never prove, or you can make an educated assumption based on the only facts we have available. I'll tend to defer to the man who produced the album and buy into his accurate notes that were taken at the time of the recording more so than someone thinking back and trying to speculate 30+ years later. Carry on... 8)
Flemming's notes themselves point to 300W Marshall cabs on MoP, and he's listed the serial numbers of those cabs. G12T-75 cabs with serial numbers below and above those cabs can be spotted frequently, which all points to - yes - G12T-75's being used on MoP.
And yes, G12T cabs started appearing on late '83 and '84. I used to have an '83 dated G12T-75 cab, which were 15 ohm vented speakers.
Folks can choose to believe what they wish. You can either spend your free time digging up obscure quotes trying to find something you'll never prove, or you can make an educated assumption based on the only facts we have available. I'll tend to defer to the man who produced the album and buy into his accurate notes that were taken at the time of the recording more so than someone thinking back and trying to speculate 30+ years later. Carry on... 8)
TRENCHLORD
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IMO they certainly "sound" like t75 cabs on the old albums.
If I were wanting to copy their 80's tones that's exactly what I'd use.
If I were wanting to copy their 80's tones that's exactly what I'd use.
"I'll tend to defer to the man who produced the album and buy into his accurate notes that were taken at the time of the recording more so than someone thinking back and trying to speculate 30+ years later"
From Flemming himself :
Carry on... :mrgreen:
From Flemming himself :
Carry on... :mrgreen:
Do you think Marshall order Celestion speaker one by one ? They make huge batch command to Celestion, so these GT75 could have be made in the end of 84 send to marshall, assembled in a 1960 cabinet and sold on the market in 1985. Check the Marshall History book (a serious source, not a one hundred handmade list on the internet...) and check the catalogue release date for the first GT75 : 1985 !
Silverwulf
Well-known member
I'll just add again that I had an '83 Marshall G12T-75 cab with original speakers. So yes, they were certainly out well before '85. Funny enough, I preferred my '81 Marshall G12-65 cab (which I still have to this day), and sold off the '83 cab many moons ago.
boogieordie
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I don't put much stock in Monty Jay. It's just not a reliable source of info. Even Flemming has trouble recalling and wasn't fully aware of what they used at the time. Flemming has said they used EQF-1's on the album when clearly the studio picture was an EQF-2. The EQF-1 is also inconsistent with his notes since it doesn't have the same peaking/ shelving options that are listed on his notes that only the EQF-2 has.
After a quick check I didn't even see the EQF on the Monty Jay site (only a Furman PEQ) and being that I own 2 EQF-2's myself these units are absolutely critical to the MoP tone receipe!
Also pictured at sweet silence with "crunch berries" and therefore easily deduced was taken during the MoP session - separate Google search & NOT pictured on Flemming's site - are two compressor/ expanders along side the 2 EQF-2's which I also own and from experience I can tell are used to tighten up the crunch at those gain levels along with adding some punch. Settings are difficult to see but you can see that one is being used in compressor mode while the second is expanding. It makes no sense that these were used in series since one unit can perform both functions simultaneously. This technique would be consistent with two separate heads with one cab each, both being fed by what appears to be an ABY box(again explaining why there's 2 of everything) that his guitar is going into with 2 cables coming out, and not one head with two cabs being miced as some people speculate based on Flemming's notes. Oh, "maybe he used stereo for cleans and mono for distortion?".. you say? Nope, the picture squashes that theory since the lead channel knob is pulled. Flemming is doing one of three things, either he completely neglected to even notice a stereo rig right in front of his face(unlikely), or he lost, forgot to, or didn't take notes on the second amp settings, etc., or he is intentionally withholding the final ingredients to the "holy grail."
After a quick check I didn't even see the EQF on the Monty Jay site (only a Furman PEQ) and being that I own 2 EQF-2's myself these units are absolutely critical to the MoP tone receipe!
Also pictured at sweet silence with "crunch berries" and therefore easily deduced was taken during the MoP session - separate Google search & NOT pictured on Flemming's site - are two compressor/ expanders along side the 2 EQF-2's which I also own and from experience I can tell are used to tighten up the crunch at those gain levels along with adding some punch. Settings are difficult to see but you can see that one is being used in compressor mode while the second is expanding. It makes no sense that these were used in series since one unit can perform both functions simultaneously. This technique would be consistent with two separate heads with one cab each, both being fed by what appears to be an ABY box(again explaining why there's 2 of everything) that his guitar is going into with 2 cables coming out, and not one head with two cabs being miced as some people speculate based on Flemming's notes. Oh, "maybe he used stereo for cleans and mono for distortion?".. you say? Nope, the picture squashes that theory since the lead channel knob is pulled. Flemming is doing one of three things, either he completely neglected to even notice a stereo rig right in front of his face(unlikely), or he lost, forgot to, or didn't take notes on the second amp settings, etc., or he is intentionally withholding the final ingredients to the "holy grail."
Silverwulf
Well-known member
^That's not accurate. As I stated, I had a cab from late '83 with '83 date code G12T-75s in it. I recently had one with March '84 date codes as well. Marshall had no consistency in those days. The recent one had a 260W label on it too. Just like my '90s V30 cab still using leftover 300W labels. Marshall didn't get more consistent in their data or labeling until around the mid-'90s.
If you had a cab from the early '80s, there's quite a handful of speakers it may have had stock, regardless of what the label said.
If you had a cab from the early '80s, there's quite a handful of speakers it may have had stock, regardless of what the label said.
Hi Silverwulf,
could you please post pics and the serial code of your G12T-75, it's interesting ? I had a 1984 G12-T75 speaker and it is by far the older one i've seen on the market. I wasn't aware of a 1983 G12T-75 speaker. How do you know it was the stock speaker ?
I can hear that Marshall was inconsistent at that time. But for the old stock spares, not for new speakers. So what about a freshly new speakers, custom made by Celestion for Marshall especially to replace the G12T-75 ?
At these time, Marshall was the number one seller, with massive sells each years. And Celestion don't delivers speaker unit by unit, they deliver a massiv batch of units. So to be realistic, it have to be built and produced massively to Marshall in 1984 then sold into the world.
Also take in consideration that the brand to try news thing of sold old stock was Park, not Marshall.
Anyway, ok, let's suppose it happen. Do you think the cab at sweet silence was freshly new cab ? And between the time Marshall produce the new 1960A/G12T75 speakers and send them to the brokers : you have a gap. Denmark isn't a big place for music, i don't think the news 1960A arrived before the end of 1986. I suppose sweet silence were probably more used old cab with the stocks speakers of these time : G12-65 or, older, Greenbacks.
Just my 2 cents.
could you please post pics and the serial code of your G12T-75, it's interesting ? I had a 1984 G12-T75 speaker and it is by far the older one i've seen on the market. I wasn't aware of a 1983 G12T-75 speaker. How do you know it was the stock speaker ?
I can hear that Marshall was inconsistent at that time. But for the old stock spares, not for new speakers. So what about a freshly new speakers, custom made by Celestion for Marshall especially to replace the G12T-75 ?
At these time, Marshall was the number one seller, with massive sells each years. And Celestion don't delivers speaker unit by unit, they deliver a massiv batch of units. So to be realistic, it have to be built and produced massively to Marshall in 1984 then sold into the world.
Also take in consideration that the brand to try news thing of sold old stock was Park, not Marshall.
Anyway, ok, let's suppose it happen. Do you think the cab at sweet silence was freshly new cab ? And between the time Marshall produce the new 1960A/G12T75 speakers and send them to the brokers : you have a gap. Denmark isn't a big place for music, i don't think the news 1960A arrived before the end of 1986. I suppose sweet silence were probably more used old cab with the stocks speakers of these time : G12-65 or, older, Greenbacks.
Just my 2 cents.
boogieordie
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Silverwulf said:
+1. The 75 is the only one that would match up with Flemming's "300 watt kabinets" notes. Which do people believe, evidence that matches old notes OR taking old forgetful dudes words as gospel who can't remember 5 mins ago?
@boogieordie : there are no 300 watts produced in Marshall catalog at these time, it's cleadly stated in the books of reliable people. And the speaker next on the Marshall production list was the G12-70M, not the G12-75T.
Last, the notes you are talking about are for Kirk amp, and this song was played before they made master, for reharsall. So you are wrong again ^^. Master sound is all about james sound, kirk only did solos...
Just my two cents.
Last, the notes you are talking about are for Kirk amp, and this song was played before they made master, for reharsall. So you are wrong again ^^. Master sound is all about james sound, kirk only did solos...
Just my two cents.
Silverwulf
Well-known member
The last one, I was told it was stock from the original owner. He sold the stack, which he bought new, late '83 cab and early '84 2204 head. He'd never opened it up before. I have no reason to believe he was making up the story. They were both in exceptionally nice condition.
I'll look to see if I have any pics of the old cabs/speakers, no promises on that though. I don't have any 75 cabs at the moment (sold them all).
Sweet Silence had a mix of new and used cabs. They allegedly had up to a dozen cabs there at any given time and used whatever sounded best at that particular time.
Here's something for you. MoP started recording in Sept '85. The cabs used were serial numbers in the 11k range. I've seen cabs in the 9k serial range dated to mid-'84 and 10k serial range with speakers dated to '85. That means the cabs used on MoP were pretty much brand new.
With 75s dated to '83 and '84 and RTL being recorded in early '84, it's possible they were used on RTL. It's also possible a host of other speakers were in there. We'll never know with 100% certainty. But here's something to add intrigue to your story. The old 75s allegedly were made differently than the later '90s models. I've seen a frequency plot of G12-65s compared to early 75s, and they were nearly identical, as opposed to later 75s. So whether it was either of those speakers, there's a chance the tonal difference was minimal, rendering an either/or discussion almost moot... :lol: Assuming it wasn't another speaker entirely.
There's also the caveat that the 65s went through 40+ versions while they were used, so...good luck narrowing that down... :mrgreen:
I'll look to see if I have any pics of the old cabs/speakers, no promises on that though. I don't have any 75 cabs at the moment (sold them all).
Sweet Silence had a mix of new and used cabs. They allegedly had up to a dozen cabs there at any given time and used whatever sounded best at that particular time.
Here's something for you. MoP started recording in Sept '85. The cabs used were serial numbers in the 11k range. I've seen cabs in the 9k serial range dated to mid-'84 and 10k serial range with speakers dated to '85. That means the cabs used on MoP were pretty much brand new.
With 75s dated to '83 and '84 and RTL being recorded in early '84, it's possible they were used on RTL. It's also possible a host of other speakers were in there. We'll never know with 100% certainty. But here's something to add intrigue to your story. The old 75s allegedly were made differently than the later '90s models. I've seen a frequency plot of G12-65s compared to early 75s, and they were nearly identical, as opposed to later 75s. So whether it was either of those speakers, there's a chance the tonal difference was minimal, rendering an either/or discussion almost moot... :lol: Assuming it wasn't another speaker entirely.
There's also the caveat that the 65s went through 40+ versions while they were used, so...good luck narrowing that down... :mrgreen:
boogieordie
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dafxtone said:
So you choose to believe forgetful old people. Check roge. Nor do those notes exclusively say 300 watt cabs were only used for solos. It may have also been for quick reference if he had forgot what all guitars ran through. Serial numbers date back further than these old forgetful "reliable" sources claim. The math is easy on what to believe. It's a no brainer.
@Silverwulf : Very interesting.
After revising the flemming notes, it's correct, 300w cabinets were used for battery song at least (evidence below). I don't know if it's james or Kirk set but it means that it's not G12-65.
I will dig for the original date of the G12-75 and the cab serial numbers. But i sound strange : Marshall would have sold only 2000 cabs between 1984 and 1985 ?
After revising the flemming notes, it's correct, 300w cabinets were used for battery song at least (evidence below). I don't know if it's james or Kirk set but it means that it's not G12-65.
I will dig for the original date of the G12-75 and the cab serial numbers. But i sound strange : Marshall would have sold only 2000 cabs between 1984 and 1985 ?
