Markageddon
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Oh my god.
Crunch mode.
That is all.
Crunch mode.
That is all.
Mesa MarkV / Saturation 'mod'
- Thread starter APEMAN
- Start date
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Well, I just stuck a Jan gray plate from Dougs in V4 of my MKV. Sounds great at home. The real test will be this weekend, at volume for two shows. My question: What is the longevity of this tube being in V4 where an AX7 should be? I definitely would hate for it to go during the set. I`ve read that it should be good in this thread. Just wondering how long people have been running them and pushing the crap out of em.
Markageddon
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Nice one. Its a whole new world for you now.
I've been caining one in my big amp for 2 weeks, on and off. Sounds consistent and strong still.
Also I've been on the V:25 with one in the equivalent stage for a week too and its brutal with no signs of slacking.
(And you can see in the vids that the V:25 was run with near max pres mid and 12-1oclock bass dialled in...!! )
Since its a pre-tube thing, I cant see the output power you play at factoring much. I'd feel confident of gigging this weekend with your amp, if I were in your place. And i'm sure some of these fellas have been testing theirs for months.
I've been caining one in my big amp for 2 weeks, on and off. Sounds consistent and strong still.
Also I've been on the V:25 with one in the equivalent stage for a week too and its brutal with no signs of slacking.
(And you can see in the vids that the V:25 was run with near max pres mid and 12-1oclock bass dialled in...!! )
Since its a pre-tube thing, I cant see the output power you play at factoring much. I'd feel confident of gigging this weekend with your amp, if I were in your place. And i'm sure some of these fellas have been testing theirs for months.
robertray said:
I haven't run the numbers yet to figure out exactly what this changes electrically, but the quick answer is that they're both rated for 300V plate voltage, and the 12AU7 is actually rated for a higher current. So in most cases this is a pretty safe substitution.
Markageddon said:
Thanks for the reply. I`ve been running Dougs tube cocktail for 5 years or so now. Also, vintage mesa branded sylvania 6ca7s, so it has always sounded REALLY good to me. Still on the fence with the 12at7. I try to a/b at volume at home, but that doesnt last long before ears are shot. I will, though, keep it in for this weekend.
I just got my new (to me) Mark IIC+ back from Mike B., and it sounds fantastic. I paid more and was lucky enough to get a switchable version of the ++ mod as well.
I have not done any serious A/Bing yet, but so far, it and my Mark V/AT7 feel interchangeable. ++ mod is brutal but so is the new Extreme mode.
I sold my JP-2C a while back but I am keeping both of these amps, for sure.
I have not done any serious A/Bing yet, but so far, it and my Mark V/AT7 feel interchangeable. ++ mod is brutal but so is the new Extreme mode.
I sold my JP-2C a while back but I am keeping both of these amps, for sure.
:shock: wow!! That is awesome.. I wish I could hear them in person.. It doesn't matter much though coz this amp just smokes now !! But I hope you can do some comparison clips someday for those of us folks who don't have the privilege of owning a iic+/++
Bankim said:
I defintely intend to record some clips. Trying to capture the hugeness and feel of these two amps is going to be tricky, through, I think.
Markageddon
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Totally. Cant wait to hear some of that...!
This vid gets some of it across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyPR6MeIP4c
This vid gets some of it across: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyPR6MeIP4c
jnoel64
Well-known member
I've been following this thread for a while now and I just couldn't take it any more. I found a 2009 Mark V for a great price on Reverb (hard to believe) and pulled the trigger. It arrived last Friday and I've been learning the amp while making the AT7 swap at the same time. I found out the amp still had its original tubes, so I am in the process of replacing them all at the same time. So far, having an AT7 in both V4 and V6 hasn't thrilled me as I expected it would. But, until all the tubes are replaced, I can't say much of anything for sure yet. The V is an incredible amp, that is for sure, I just haven't found that sweet spot yet. I was very surprised that my WGS Reaper HP sounds better than any other speaker in my collection. Once all my tubes arrive and I have a rolling session or five, I will have more to contribute.
jnoel64 said:
So, here are the settings I'm using:
FX loop level is at noon.
Channel 3 is set to Pentode.
90 Watts
Channel 3 settings
- Channel 3 bright switch is off for IIC+ mode, on for extreme mode
- Gain: 2 o'clock
- Master: 9:30
- Presence: 10:30
- Treble: 4 o'clock
- Mids: 11 o'clock
- Bass: 7 o'clock (really low, but not turned all the way off)
- EQ: on, sliders, Metallica V
I hope that helps.
-Dan
jnoel64 said:
Interestingly, that might be one of the original schematic Mark Vs with a higher internal VOLUME setting (7.5 instead of 7), and increased high end. They iterated the Mark V early in it's life to reduce the high end and the internal gain to make it less harsh seemingly. That could be playing into slightly differing results too, but having old tubes could not be helping too.
jnoel64
Well-known member
I appreciate the advice.
One thing I have noticed so far is that the bright switch doesn't really seem to have any effect - or at least none that seem drastically different. With AT7s in both V4 and V6, I have to dime the gain, and that didn't seem right to me. But, with all the other tubes in question, nothing can be completely determined.
I did start with a new quad of TADs, but the center plastic piece snapped off on one of the tubes, and I nearly cried. So, now I have a set of EH 6CA7s in the power section and I am really digging those! I just got the new rectifier tube yesterday and am waiting for the remaining pre-amp tubes to arrive.
Someone here was running EL34s and 6L6s together and I've wondered how that is possible. I've heard of that in the IIs, but not the Vs. Either that or I have had some great hallucinations while reading through the forum.
Even with the reduced gain I am currently experiencing, the tone is very nice, just not "hot" enough. The new pre's should take care of that. The seller said MB told him the tubes would last forever. Talk about a hallucination....
And, of course, now there is a MK V:35 up for 1350. I am strongly fighting the urge to buy that one, too.
One thing I have noticed so far is that the bright switch doesn't really seem to have any effect - or at least none that seem drastically different. With AT7s in both V4 and V6, I have to dime the gain, and that didn't seem right to me. But, with all the other tubes in question, nothing can be completely determined.
I did start with a new quad of TADs, but the center plastic piece snapped off on one of the tubes, and I nearly cried. So, now I have a set of EH 6CA7s in the power section and I am really digging those! I just got the new rectifier tube yesterday and am waiting for the remaining pre-amp tubes to arrive.
Someone here was running EL34s and 6L6s together and I've wondered how that is possible. I've heard of that in the IIs, but not the Vs. Either that or I have had some great hallucinations while reading through the forum.
Even with the reduced gain I am currently experiencing, the tone is very nice, just not "hot" enough. The new pre's should take care of that. The seller said MB told him the tubes would last forever. Talk about a hallucination....
And, of course, now there is a MK V:35 up for 1350. I am strongly fighting the urge to buy that one, too.
Running an integrated quad of power tubes may be possible (EL34 inner and 6L6 outer) considering how hot the inner pair run. I would not advise to do this as the 10W power mode would result in failure I would assume. (the mix of EL34 and 6L6 was actually in the first run of the manuals but was removed in a very short time as it was an oops in print, carry over from the Mark IV I would assume).
Mark III and Mark IVb were capable or running integrated quads. When I bought the Mark III new, it had a pair each of 6CA7 and 6L6GC. I tried the same arrangement in the Mark IV and sounded great. That was also in the manual. I never did try the 6V6 using tweed power, too bad you could only run a pair of those). I guess the Mark V is one of the only simul-Class amps that cannot be used with the integrated quad format.
The bright switch will do something and should be noticeable. It actually drives the gain harder and sort of bumps up the treble response a bit. Since the 12AT7 frequency response is not matched completely to the circuit of V4, the capacitance tying the grid to the cathode may not provide the same amount of positive feedback on the upper frequency range. The bright switch connects a cathode resistor bypass capacitor into the circuit. What this does is increases the gain of the circuit. It does that but the characteristic is more like a grid slammer effect (sounds the same as the Mesa Grid slammer on the front end of the amp). It also does increase the brightness and seems to make the presence control more influential.
If you do not notice it, could be your power tubes.
With 6CA7 on board, you could return to the 12AX7 in V4 as I had a blast with those for a short while (long before the V4 Mod discovery). Would like to hear your opinion with the 12AT7 in V4 using the 6CA7.
Trick with the TAD tubes, this includes the preferred series version and the Ruby version (however had no issues breaking off the plastic with the blue Preferred series bass, also what I am using in the Mark V now as the other 6L6 tubes were rattling too much). Use a silver metallic Sharpie pen to mark on the large plastic base where the key is located. You can use the tube without the center post as it only serves to cover the glass tip where it gets sealed. My first set of TADs did the same thing. I did manage to glue it in place but that only held up for a little while. (jeweler's cement worked).
Mark III and Mark IVb were capable or running integrated quads. When I bought the Mark III new, it had a pair each of 6CA7 and 6L6GC. I tried the same arrangement in the Mark IV and sounded great. That was also in the manual. I never did try the 6V6 using tweed power, too bad you could only run a pair of those). I guess the Mark V is one of the only simul-Class amps that cannot be used with the integrated quad format.
The bright switch will do something and should be noticeable. It actually drives the gain harder and sort of bumps up the treble response a bit. Since the 12AT7 frequency response is not matched completely to the circuit of V4, the capacitance tying the grid to the cathode may not provide the same amount of positive feedback on the upper frequency range. The bright switch connects a cathode resistor bypass capacitor into the circuit. What this does is increases the gain of the circuit. It does that but the characteristic is more like a grid slammer effect (sounds the same as the Mesa Grid slammer on the front end of the amp). It also does increase the brightness and seems to make the presence control more influential.
If you do not notice it, could be your power tubes.
With 6CA7 on board, you could return to the 12AX7 in V4 as I had a blast with those for a short while (long before the V4 Mod discovery). Would like to hear your opinion with the 12AT7 in V4 using the 6CA7.
Trick with the TAD tubes, this includes the preferred series version and the Ruby version (however had no issues breaking off the plastic with the blue Preferred series bass, also what I am using in the Mark V now as the other 6L6 tubes were rattling too much). Use a silver metallic Sharpie pen to mark on the large plastic base where the key is located. You can use the tube without the center post as it only serves to cover the glass tip where it gets sealed. My first set of TADs did the same thing. I did manage to glue it in place but that only held up for a little while. (jeweler's cement worked).
As mentioned above, it's 10w mode that makes mixed 6L6/EL34 officially not advised. Different people on this forum have had success doing it anyway, but with the caveat that it's not officially endorsed, it's CERTAINLY not warrantied, and if you accidentally flip to 10w mode while doing so you will likely have a costly repair on your hands.
As for the preamp tubes lasting forever... not quite forever, but certainly they can last 10+ years easily, and many last far longer. Preamp tubes do not wear out nearly the same way that power tubes do so unless you have an amp that is particularly torturous.
Also, I definitely don't find myself needing to dime the gain with the AT7 in both slots, are you using particularly low output pickups? Also, have you considering making the Graphic EQ shape more scooped? I find the V shape EQ curve goes a long way to helping the channel sound saturated because the tone is so clear and precise normally that it doesn't feel like there's as much gain as there actually is.
As for the preamp tubes lasting forever... not quite forever, but certainly they can last 10+ years easily, and many last far longer. Preamp tubes do not wear out nearly the same way that power tubes do so unless you have an amp that is particularly torturous.
Also, I definitely don't find myself needing to dime the gain with the AT7 in both slots, are you using particularly low output pickups? Also, have you considering making the Graphic EQ shape more scooped? I find the V shape EQ curve goes a long way to helping the channel sound saturated because the tone is so clear and precise normally that it doesn't feel like there's as much gain as there actually is.
jnoel64
Well-known member
There is nothing in the manual I received with the amp (nor the one I have already downloaded) that mentioned using EL34 and 6L6 combined. I love the idea, but kinda clueless as to what position to set for the bias switch. At any rate, the 6CA7s are sort of a hybrid anyway and are a brand new matched quad. Sure, new tubes can still be bad, I know. Yet I have never had any issue with the EH 6CA7s that I've used over the last 10 years. But, for all things, there is a first time, I know.
I could see how using EL34s in the inner slots would be fine when in 45 watt mode, since those are the tubes used then. I would have to further assume that the bias switch would be on EL34, which makes sense. But, when switching to 90 watt mode....?
I do get a noticeable change in tone between the wattage modes. The fact that I can have different wattage settings on each channel reminds me a lot of how my RK1 works with its progressive linkage. That, in itself, is an awesome feature. It would be even better if the full power/variac power could also be as flexible. Perhaps a considered feature for the VI, whenever that arrives.
I have used 2 different guitars with my initial tests. My Strat is loaded with Duncan Hot Rails. I have them set to be tap-able with a pull-push volume knob. That guitar drives my TC-50 into a fire-breathing frenzy. The other guitar tested was my HM Tele with Duncan HB-103s. That guitar has a similar effect with the TC as well. I switched to a known good cable, too. I definitely used the scoop on the GEQ. Lots of tonal power with that!
At this point, I am still waiting for the remainder of 12AX7s to arrive, and I suspect the original tubes. Yes, I know the basics of preamp tube life. That was a hard lesson in 2000 when I got a Carvin Legacy I combo. It had defective preamp tubes from the factory. Initially, I just thought the amp sucked, lol! That amp was an overall crash course in tubes for me and it sings now.
Of course, there is always the possibility something went bad in shipping and am hoping that is not the case. It was shipped in its original MB box with all the padding in place. The amp is dead quiet, no hums or buzzing. No weird volume jumps, nothing out of the ordinary at all.
As I stated earlier, once I have ALL new tubes in the preamp section (and may try some others in the power section, too), I think I will get some of the results I am hoping for.
If I can still find that broken piece from the TAD, I may have to try the jewelers glue. Thanks for the tip on that, Bandit!
I am also considering spraying the bright switch with Deoxit. Buying used gear can often be a crap shoot. I was lucky with my Dyne, but it wasn't as old as the V when I got it. No worries yet on my end.
Once all my new tubes arrive, I think I will try "stock" first and go from there. It would be the smarter thing to do to start with a frame of reference since this is my first Mark.
I could see how using EL34s in the inner slots would be fine when in 45 watt mode, since those are the tubes used then. I would have to further assume that the bias switch would be on EL34, which makes sense. But, when switching to 90 watt mode....?
I do get a noticeable change in tone between the wattage modes. The fact that I can have different wattage settings on each channel reminds me a lot of how my RK1 works with its progressive linkage. That, in itself, is an awesome feature. It would be even better if the full power/variac power could also be as flexible. Perhaps a considered feature for the VI, whenever that arrives.
I have used 2 different guitars with my initial tests. My Strat is loaded with Duncan Hot Rails. I have them set to be tap-able with a pull-push volume knob. That guitar drives my TC-50 into a fire-breathing frenzy. The other guitar tested was my HM Tele with Duncan HB-103s. That guitar has a similar effect with the TC as well. I switched to a known good cable, too. I definitely used the scoop on the GEQ. Lots of tonal power with that!
At this point, I am still waiting for the remainder of 12AX7s to arrive, and I suspect the original tubes. Yes, I know the basics of preamp tube life. That was a hard lesson in 2000 when I got a Carvin Legacy I combo. It had defective preamp tubes from the factory. Initially, I just thought the amp sucked, lol! That amp was an overall crash course in tubes for me and it sings now.
Of course, there is always the possibility something went bad in shipping and am hoping that is not the case. It was shipped in its original MB box with all the padding in place. The amp is dead quiet, no hums or buzzing. No weird volume jumps, nothing out of the ordinary at all.
As I stated earlier, once I have ALL new tubes in the preamp section (and may try some others in the power section, too), I think I will get some of the results I am hoping for.
If I can still find that broken piece from the TAD, I may have to try the jewelers glue. Thanks for the tip on that, Bandit!
I am also considering spraying the bright switch with Deoxit. Buying used gear can often be a crap shoot. I was lucky with my Dyne, but it wasn't as old as the V when I got it. No worries yet on my end.
Once all my new tubes arrive, I think I will try "stock" first and go from there. It would be the smarter thing to do to start with a frame of reference since this is my first Mark.
Markageddon
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dcphillip said:
This interconnected universe eh?
Thats a baptism of fire right there for the new axe.
Markageddon said:
