Mark V owner review of JP-2C (multi page post)

[bandit2013]

I did a tube roll on the Mark V, sounded better but does not have the same impression on me as the JP-2C. Had I not had the experience to play though the JP-2C ( I had to spend $2500 to do this) I would have thought the Mark V was the best thing on the planet, (assuming I did not have the Roadster or RA100). Odd that I came home with the Mark V when I was originally after the Roadster back in 2012.... I did not understand how to dial in the amp and there was nobody experienced with the product to help me out, Mark V seemed easy to find what I liked - should have taken the amp I played though and not the clean one in the back corner. :x Oh well so much for that... Even though my first trial of the Roadster was less than satisfactory I bought one anyway within 2 years after the Mark V. Reason: I was getting irritated with the V. Having problems, ice pick, thin, lack of substance, sterile. Sure has some features but some are worse than others, what on earth is edge used for anyway, that and tweed is the most awful sounds I get from the Mark V. I love every feature on the Roadster, every voice on all the channels (Tweed is my favorite on CH1), like the rectifier power character. The Roadster is superior to the Mark V and I believe it can do so much more. Even the RA100 is amazing and is worth owning. The JP-2C is just the icing on the cake and it excels were all of the other amps do not. Lead. Roadster is not bad for lead playing and is quite easy to muster depending on what channel you decide to use.

Actually, the JP-2C is more than a lead or soloist piece of gear. Overall I am impressed. I have not lost interest in using the Roadster or RA100 ether but have taken a dive on the Mark V as the more I play though the JP-2C or my other amps, the Mark V is getting moved closer to the closet.

 

[bandit2013]

Interesting observation: Vertical 212 vs OS Recto 412
I am actually hearing more sag in the power supply with the vertical 212 than I did with the Recto 412. I will have to bring the 412 cab back into the family room to compare again. Not sure if it is related to master volume of the channel I am using. Most of the time I set the masters to about 11oclock or a bit lower. When the volume goes up it seems to tighten up. I also noticed at lower volumes there is more bass present in the mix. Sure, your volume dictates how it will drive the power tubes which also may relate to the notable sag with power chords. Bump up the volume and it seems to tighten up considerably as the amplitude of the mids and upper frequencies become more pronounced. Quite similar to the Roadster in some respects but I get sag at higher settings with that amp than the JP. What I really love about the JP is the palm muted characteristic, nice, dry, precise, and well defined. I struggled way too long with my other amps to get that characteristic. Of course the signing leads is the best part but I do more than just lead playing (really cannot play lead but I can pretend I do). The more I play through the JP, the more I love it.

I have tried to get that classic rock chime with low gain settings. Still no luck there. Thinking about getting a Flux Drive pedal or Throttle box so I can get the clean channel into clip. Still I have the Roadster or RA100 to use for that style. Notice I did not mention the Mark V.... I want that one out of the picture as it seems a bit week or sterile for my tastes. After playing with the JP for a while, even CH2 on the Mark V seems lame. CH3 does not even compare. Okay, sure you can get more gain from the Mark V CH3 if you boost the gain control as far as it can go, along with that is muddy notes even with bass dialed back. Sterile is all I can say to describe the V. I barely get compression just fizz. Mark IV if you dare to set the master past 4 would begin to compress the signal but never got stale or sterile. Come to think of it, if the Mark III did not use common controls for all three channels and Mark IV having the same issue with RHY1 and RHY2 I probably would have kept them. Perhaps the reason why the Mark V was a hit from the start was all three channels were separated. the RA100 is an exception as the Hi/Lo character is great such that I do not what to adjust the settings to achieve different character (not yet anyway). Roadster has 4 independent channels that satisfies me in all respects. It the Mark V had the same temperament as the JP I would be raving about it. If they were all vegetables, I would rate the V as a Potato. The RA100 as an Onion, the Roadster as a Jalapeno, and the JP as a Habanero. Probably a poor analogy. I had to remove the Mark V from the location of the JP as I was spending more time trying to make the V sound better. I had to realize it is what it is what it is. Go figure, I would prefer Class A/B over the Simul-Class as that has won me over with the RA and Roadster. Just a note, I believe what I think is sterile in the V may have more to do with the preamp than the power section. I do recall running the Mark V send out into the Roadster return (slave) to see if there was much of a difference. It sounded very much the same thought he Class A/B power section of the Roadster as it does with the Simul-Class of the Mark V. The differences really do not become apparent until you can spend time with each all in the same room with what ever guitar you have. I have 10 electric guitars to choose from, and they are not all of the same type of tone woods. I have yet to cycle though all of them but will soon enough. So far my favorite is a guitar of mahogany construction (set neck) with a quilted maple top wood, ebony fret board, all tied together with a locking Floyd Rose bridge system. My second choice is an all maple bolt on neck coupled to a black limba body topped with flamed maple cap, single coil sized humbuckers, and Floyd Rose. I have a few neck though guitars of various woods, walnut with maple neck, Alder with maple neck, Koa with maple neck, and the list goes on. Two other set neck guitars both primarily made of mahogany one is like my favorite but without Floyd and the other is similar to a Les Paul. I definitely can tell the difference between the guitars though the JP. Much more noticeable than say the Roadster or RA100.

If I have not started to repeat myself, you are in luck.... If I am repeating myself, I am sorry as this record is broken or only has one side to play.

The JP is as easy to dial in as the RA100 (if you have not had the pleasure to play through one of those, I can honestly say I know what you are missing 8) ) but there are subtle clues there is more to it than just a simple setting so it can be as intuitive as the Roadster (what effects your tone and how to get more out of your settings). That is meant to be a pun as the Roadster can be difficult to understand but once you do it is amazing. You do not need to use a decoder ring to figure out how to get clean, crunch and bite like you would with the Mark III, Mark IV. It does not have any useless voices like edge or tweed that is found on the Mark V. (I love tweed on the Roadster but not on the V). [perhaps I lost my way with the V and will have to dig up the manual to try the sample settings once again, yep, may need the decoder ring with this one too.....Roadster also needs a decoder ring but cannot use the same concepts as what you would find with the Mark amps... When dialing in the Roadster or Rectifier amp, you need to forget what you learned from using a Mark amp as it is not as it appears.]

 

[bandit2013]

One more thing to mention about the JP-2C, if you have a favorite set of 6CA7 you want to use, forget it... This amp does not support EL-34 type tubes. Actually the only amp I own that can do both but prefer EL-34s over the other would be the RA100.

However, one thing to note about the Mesa STR440 (or shall I say Ruby 6L6GCMSTR) is that they seem to sound similar to the EL-34 but with more abundant bass response. So far, the Roadster and the JP-2C sound great with the Mesa STR440 6L6GC tube. Perhaps some will beg to differ and would prefer the STR415 if you can afford them or find them. Before I ever tried SED =C= tubes in my Mark V, the tubes I borrowed from the Mark IV combo sounded the best (original STR 420). Too bad the Mark V was killing tubes as those lasted less than an hour. I did not put that many hours on the original tubes that were in the Mark IV combo. Perhaps some day I will try alternatives to the Mesa STR440 in the JP-2C but no time soon. I love how this amp sounds with stock tubes. There are some amps the STR440 do not sound all that great in, RA100 (bad idea, =C= is a better choice but those are difficult to find in grade A quality as most are seconds or rejects being sold at NOS prices). Mark V (better choice is the =C=, TAD 6L6GCstr, and probably others like the Tung Sol 7581A [opt for the "A" version as the standard may not last very long but can take the higher bias setting but will end up with a major tone shift after a few months of light to moderate use]) That gives me an idea, use the Mark V amp as a tube tester :shock: perhaps not... I have enough problems to deal with and besides, tubes that sound great with the V do not mean they will sound the same in other amps.

Another thing comes to mind, now after owning the JP-2C for a little while, what amp would I feel worth the expense of a hard wood enclosure, since you are reading this here, I would say the JP-2C. I would even go to the extend to getting a matching Vertical 2x12 to go with it. Actually vinyl covering is fine with me as that extra cash could be used for a new guitar.

 

[bandit2013]

:evil: One thing I really hate about the JP-2C, it sounds so good and it is hard to believe...... The more I play it, the less I want to play thought my other amps. I am spoiled for good.... 8) Now I am spending time tube rolling or whatever with my other amps. At least the Roadster is a perfect complement and would mix well with the JP especially with heavy stuff. I would be kidding myself if I said I do not like heavy metal, I do. Now I am in a debate which amp does Led Zep better, but would depend on the song I would suppose as for the songs I know, all of the amps do a fine job with the Led Z. The RA100 nails it quite well but I prefer the JP. Thinking about getting the Mesa Flux Drive for the low gain crunch tone (listened to many demo and clips available from Mesa and others, as it seems the Flux Drive would be the better choice over the Throttle box).

I am generally not an OD or Distortion pedal guy. I have one, Wampler Plexi Deluxe, it sounds just like the RA100 Lo or Hi gain channel and seemed pointless to use it with the clean channel. I may explore using this with the JP just to see if it will suit my needs but seems a bit over the top for what I want. It works great for getting fuzz on Bass which is the reason why I kept it. As far as the other effects, the JP does quite well, in fact it will expose any weakness of the software used for the DSP. The Line 6 DL4 never sounded better. Can't say much for the TC flashback but have lost my way in how to use it as it took the back seat a while ago since I got the Boss Tera Echo and then the Strymon DIG. I may get a few more pedals too but still in debate what exactly I would want. Perhaps a Strymon Brigadier delay as I like what you can do with the decay rate of the repeats. Again, I am getting more stuff as a result of my enjoyment with the JP. Soon enough I will have another guitar on the way. When will it stop? It does not matter as it is all good.

I joined this site in 2012 for one reason, to find out what is wrong with my Mark V and to see if there was a cure of fix to correct my issues or to see what others have done to get past this or that. Change of mindset as with the Roadster, RA100, and now the JP I just want to share praise of the product and how it makes me feel. My experience thus far with the JP is rewarding and far more memorable than migrating from Marshall to Mark III back in the late 80's. That Mark III combo was awesome but difficult to manage the three channels. I would assume others want to re-tube their JP, but I am amazed of the out of box experience that I do not want to change what I find to be more than exceptional in all aspects of what this amp can do. Would I buy another one of these amps? Yes I would and would pair it with a Vertical 212 cab like I have now.. For the moment I can live with just one.

 

[sheehanje]

:evil: I joined this site in 2012 for one reason, to find out what is wrong with my Mark V and to see if there was a cure of fix to correct my issues or to see what others have done to get past this or that. Change of mindset as with the Roadster, RA100, and now the JP I just want to share praise of the product and how it makes me feel. My experience thus far with the JP is rewarding and far more memorable than migrating from Marshall to Mark III back in the late 80's. That Mark III combo was awesome but difficult to manage the three channels. I would assume others want to re-tube their JP, but I am amazed of the out of box experience that I do not want to change what I find to be more than exceptional in all aspects of what this amp can do. Would I buy another one of these amps? Yes I would and would pair it with a Vertical 212 cab like I have now.. For the moment I can live with just one.

I joined this site trying to figure out my Mark V too. Great versatile amp, but one that left me constantly trying to push more out of it.

The JP-2C has literally ended my amp/tone search. I've only gigged with it twice now, but after each gig I'm left looking at the think saying "I love my amp".

My helix, with all it's great amp models is now just a glorified effects pedal board. A good one at that, but I rarely want to delve in it's endless tones because I can't bare to not play the JP-2C. My biggest fear, and hope, is Mesa Boogie improves on the JP-2C and releases updated versions of it.
My dismay right now is I'm actually considering forking over another $2500 for a second one to have as a backup.... Yikes...

 

[bandit2013]

If Mesa plans on updating the JP-2C , not sure what that would be. There already has been an update; correction for the FX loop as there were some issues early on. I was unaware of the issue but had a notice or addendum that was placed in with the manual describing the fix. I have no issues with mine as is. If Mesa plans on making changes I better get another before that happens. IMHO, this has to be the best Mark series amp to date. If there were plans on improving the product, I say go ahead, revamp the Mark V and use what was learned with the JP and implement that in a Mark VI.

Simul-Class, never really liked the half power function. I preferred the full power or 90W of the Mark III, Mark IV and Mark V. I have owned the a Mark III for 24 years and found the half power mode was lacking something, same for the Mark IV. However, the Mark V gained what the others lacked at 45W but that is when I was getting repeated tube failures. Amp would get so hot you could not touch the chassis, never thought that was normal. Nickname for the Mark V should be REDPLATE as that is what it did often with new tubes, especially with the Mesa branded ones, as well as anything provided by New Sensor with the exception of the 7581 power tube. Only long term survivors were the =C=, and both sets are still working. Since they are out of production, I needed to make a change since the two quad sets I have will not last forever. Typical power tube failure was within an hour to 2 weeks. Tried EL-34 and those also survived the abuse of full power, actually never had a tube failure at full power. A sure kill was using variac with 45W mode, CH3 or CH2. Very easy to form a love/hate relationship with the V. Never had a happy medium, either it was weak or too shrill sounding. With full power, that is the ice pick option. I actually preferred the 45W mode with variac power but early tube death was always a concern. Sure I had my share of tube failures with the Mark III, 3 months was typical life span when I was in a band. Mark IV, never experienced a tube failure the entire 12 years I owned it before getting the Mark V. Believe it or not, it still had all of the original tubes in it. Time I used it dwindled and playing became sparse at best, so never really put in the full time on the power tubes, also used it in tweed mode most of the time.

I have been able to run the JP-2C at reduced volumes at 100W. Still sounds great. Even at 60W no reason to complain. 8ohm or 4ohm. Sounds great though the Vertical 212 cab. The 412 Recto also sounds great too. The JP is definitely one amp to spend some time with. May be easy to dial in a great tone, but there is more than what meets the eye with subtle tweaks on the main controls, as well as the 5Band EQ. Definitely has the Mark trait as it always sounds better with the EQ than without. Only blessing is that without the EQ in use, there is not a dramatic shift or change in character like there was with the predecessors. I have been spending some time without the EQs. I can get used to that. But a different world awaits with them active.
I would agree with others that the Clean channel does not require use of the 5BEQ. I will have to explore that some more with the EQ.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

I'm lost on why you'd have issues with power tubes in 45 watt/variac settings. I played my V with all 3 channels on 45 watt mode and variac, for weeks of playing every night when I first got it. Stock 6L6s, but they state the obvious in the manaul, and again in a thread just recently... the power tubes are cruising easy and will last a long time in variac mode. Strange.

 

[bandit2013]

I was puzzled too. I red plated every mesa branded tube that was installed when using the Variac and 45W mode. Go figure. At 90W mode full power, I had observed plate seams would glow red hot almost spreading across the plate when playing. My Mark IV did the same thing but not as severe using full power and pushing it. Even the =C= tubes would cook at the 45W setting. This was long before the screen resistors failed. I had tried JJ 6CA7 and those lasted 2 weeks. After returning back to 6L6 bias is when the screen resistors failed on me. I had repaired the amp with non carbon comp resistors and that worked out well. Also had to adjust the 82k shunt resistor in the bias circuit to raise the bias voltage a small amount. Now I can run Mesa tubes without failure. I still believe there is an issue with the bias circuit, will have to check the diode to confirm it is not the culprit. There still is something out of whack with the Mark V. I do know for a fact that if the bias is too hot the amp will sound extremely brittle, also the chassis was getting so hot I would not dare touch it. I did a full inspection of the circuit boards to inspect for poor solder joints and for joints that may have been compromised due to overheated components. Heat was actually from the PT and the power tubes. The issues I have had with the Mark V was the reason behind getting the Roadster head and for converting the Mark V head to a combo as the speaker will also aid in air movement around the tubes and under chassis. The Mark V has been nothing but a disappointment since I got it. Primarily due to constant tube failure problems or lack of enjoyment of ice pick tones. CH1 tweed, CH2 edge, CH3 (mk IV and Extreme) were all intolerable even with the treble and presence control dialed out. Turning off the EQ was like cutting power in half. Also did not matter what guitar I played though it unless I cut the tone control down. Most of the issues I had took 2 months of use to fester which is the time I blew out the original power tubes. I should have returned the amp immediately as all of my Mesa tube stock (had a few good replacement tubes) were destroyed including the power tubes borrowed from the Mark IV. I also should get a probe kit so I can measure plate current and plate voltage. If you looked back on my posts in the Mark V (need to go back to December 2012 or early 2013 when I first became a member as I was looking for answers or if others had the same issues I was having with my Mark V).


I have nothing but praise about the JP-2C, Roadster, and both RA100 amps. A hiccup here or there with one of the RA100 but that was something that could be fixed with compressed air (metal flakes around the preamp tube sockets caused by the Metal shields being removed and installed a few times, Even the Roadster can have this problem as the tubes face upward like the RA100 head). Shields are really not needed, okay, one had claimed they work like Faraday shields, yes, they will prevent you from picking up the local radio station most of the time, you guitar acts as a better antenna for radio frequencies.

If my Mark V performed as well as everyone else's Mark V that seem to praise the amp, I would have stopped there and would not have the JP, Roadster or RA100. I have had a difficult time to bond with the Mark V, now that I have the JP, the Mark V sounds more sterile and weak, or too ice pick to enjoy any further (been able to reduce some ice since I modified the bias circuit, change of 82k to 91k. Will have to return back to original resistance value and see how that behaves. So far since the change I am able to use 45W mode without failure of Mesa tubes. I believe the =C= tubes can handle a bit more plate current than the Chinese 6L6 tube. First thought it was issues with the old recto cab (may have been as the impedance may have changed if there was any degradation of the voice coils (cracks or conductive corrosion as the cab had sit for 12 years without use). I had tried to reuse the original V30's but those sound terrible so part of problem. Resistance measurement much lower than expected 6.8 ohms on one, 6.2 on another, 7.6 and 7.4. I can check them with a 4 wire resistance meter for better accuracy. If the impedance of the set runs lower than expected that would result in tube failure if the load is less than expected. It is possible I damaged two of the speakers when I was using the cabinet in stereo mode (mark IV on one side, and Mark III on the other).

Issues with the amp did improve considerably when I swapped the old V30 with new EV speakers. Still had the power tube issue on occasion. I believe when the screen resistors failed, I was using the EV speakers and Mesa tubes (wanted to try them again, worked great at 90W full power. Amp died when I switched to variac power at 45W if I recall correctly, that was long ago, will have to review my old posts for better accuracy of my statement.) Mark V has been a bummer for me. :roll:

 

[bandit2013]

I received the Flux Drive pedal along with the Strymon Brigadier delay pedal and a quad of backup power tubes. I requested for Gray or GRY but got GRN (Green) instead. I am okay with that. I popped those into my Roadster to verify they are good and working (never know what will happen in shipping). The difference in the Roadster of the Green to the Yellow color coded tubes was not that much.

The Brigadier Delay pedal has some features that are different from the typical digital delays I have. The DIG is great but the decay on the repeats is the same as the original signal, not sure if there is an amplitude reduction. I will have to compare the two. The Brigadier was created to emulate the older technology and it sounds great. I love the decay of the repeats as that allows for the guitar signal to remain on top and not get lost in the mix. Also you can make it so that the repeats degrade and get noisy. Both are great pedals to have at your disposal. Will have to see how they work with my other effects.

Flux Drive: was not quite sure I was going to like it. I am one that does not seem to adapt well to solid state distortion or overdrive type effects pedals. I had tried a few over years but not many as the did not seem required. The only one I kept was the Wampler Plexi Deluxe as it works great with my bass gear. To be honest, I have used it with the RA100 on the clean channel and it sounds identical to the Hi or Lo channel it seemed pointless to use it. If it creates additional noise, I tend to avoid it. I also have the Ego compressor, that is way too noisy for me to use, again will work with the Bass gear too. What was the best so far is the Strymon OB.1 compressor, just a slight bit of added noise but not more than the amp would generate without it. The Flux drive, seems to have a noise floor too. It is not dramatic though so it would be useful. I read somewhere that it did not work well with the Mark V on CH3 so I had concerns how it would work with the JP. I was not going to focus on the gain channels at first as I was more interested how it would work with the Clean channel. Not exactly what I was hoping for but it is not bad either. I will have to spend more time with it as it does have some good character on the clean channel. What worth would this be without expressing opinion on the CH2 and CH3 right. Before I go there, I experimented with the RA100, Roadster and the Mark V. Again, the RA100 clean channel sounded more like the Hi gain channel. Not bad but not great either... Seemed to affect the tone. Note I left both bass and treble at noon so I am sure I would get something different had I adjusted them. Roadster seemed similar to the RA100. I will not say bad things about it as I need to really dig in with the Flux Drive a bit more. Where it had the most influence was with the Mark V. CH2 and CH3 sounded way better than it ever did. Yeah, I had set the gain control to about 9 o'clock and had to reduce the level a bit. Now on to the JP. :x

:roll: I got stuck, do I like the JP with or without the Flux Drive. :shock: Definitely more exploration is required with this pedal and JP CH2 and CH3. Best response with the JP as it has a bit more headroom than say the Mark V. I kept the level and gain the same and well it was great actually. It did seem to reduce the tight bottom end a bit but it actually sounded really good. It seems to be one of those pedals you would think would not work out, but once you turn it on and play for a while, turn it off and then actually prefer it with it on more than off. 8) It is definitely a hit with the JP. Where it really takes off is with low volume settings on the masters as it enhances the mids and treble and tightens up the bass and sounds like you are driving the amp at a higher volume (where the JP really takes off with Master above noon) now I can run the amp at 100W with a master setting at 9 is or a bit less and still have that tight heavy character with identical tone at low volume that I would get with a moderately loud setting. 8)

In another thread, Samuel recommended using the Shred switch which will do the same thing. I will have to try that and compare it to the Flux Drive. On that note, the Flux drive will definitely broaden my gain structure and beyond what the JP will provide. A little compression and pushing out some of the headroom is not a bad thing. Actually sounded somewhat wicked. Almost like mixing a pair of SED =C= 6L6GC and a pair of TAD 6L6GC-STR in a Mark IV. That was an experience to treasure. Tried that with the Mark V and did not have the same effect. Now I can practically get there with the Flux drive. First time I was not disappointed with an OD type pedal as they usually swamp some amps too much. Wonder what the throttle box will do? I was considering that as well. Perhaps next month I will think about it. Flux Drive was worth it though.

 

[bandit2013]

More of the Bla bla bla... Makes me wonder if Alex Lifeson had only that written on paper for his inaugural speaker for the music hall of fame.

I thought I was not going to do this but.....
Almost hard to put my finger on it but I can hear the difference with my ears. Now I am comparing the Mark V and JP-2C with some more depth than I expected too. How are they similar and how do they differ. Most of you know how CH2 and Ch3 sound, and if you do not, they both are essentially identical with a subtle change in gain characteristics but if set up the same using only one 5BEQ it is really hard to tell the two channels apart. Sure the Mark V has a few toggle switches that change some operating characteristics of the preamp circuit to provide several iconic Mesa tones (Mark I, MarkII, and Mark IV). A carryover from the Mark IV (pentode, triode switch for CH3), and now growing popularity crunch and Extreme (I am assuming you like Extreme as much as I do, but if you do not like it, you will not like the JP as that is almost a dead ringer for the JP characteristic of CH2 and CH3. A day or so ago I was able to dial in the Mark I mode on both CH2 and CH3 of the JP. It was quite easy, just dial out the mids completely on the GENEQ. You can leave the 5BEQ in a V pattern or do what you like with it. One note to consider, you need some bass on the JP. Once you start adding in midrange or pull on the gain pot or presence pot it is much different. I can also get Mark IV characteristics but there is a definitive difference. The JP does not loose its articulation so note definition will be exceptional when pushing the gain envelope. If I listen hard enough the general tone of the Mark V can be heard but there is something amiss in the Mark V circuitry that is preventing this amp from being awesome. I would assume it is due to filtering on perhaps one or one of many preamp tubes, some using FETS to enable and some using relays or toggle switches. I had tried to run the Mark V out though the FXloop to slave into the Roaster and it sounded very much the same. That may rule out the Simul-Class circuit contributing to the tone difference. I can definitely vouch that my Mark V never sounded better but is lacking something that I think I remember being there. Midrange. It sounds a bit filtered and flat. I cannot regain it with the sliders and it really thins out with the preset. I have A/B'd each amp though the different speakers, so I can compare them how they sound through the V30s or EV. ( Pair of EVs and a Vertical 212 with V30.) The EV sound better with the Mark V and the V30 with the JP. V30 with the Mark V things tent to get bright but yet is okay but too long I feel fatigued with it. JP though the two EV (combo and open back extension cab) can get muddy or dark depending on volume level (louder it got the muddier it got, same settings though the V30 cab and it is tight and articulate). I can hear the V in the JP but the JP just sounds better. I could have lost touch with the Mark V regarding the basic setup since it has been collecting dust as the RA100 and or Roadster has kept me occupied. Now the Roadster and RA100 should be covered up as I am spending more time with the JP.

Tip (if not read about yet in other thread) shred mode works great for low volume playing. I stated using the shred mode more now that someone mentioned it (thanks Samuel for the tip). Compared that to the Flux drive, it sounds almost identical. However it gets different when the volume level rises. Still sounds great, and so does the Flux drive pedal. Now I need to get the Grid Slammer for a lower gain punch. Heck if it works great with at least two of my amps that is good. So far I am really liking the push with the Flux Drive, also adds more grit to the clean. Speaking about clean channel (Need to jump back to the other topic, Mark V vs JP: Mark V has a bit more chime to it (depending on what type of guitar in use) there is definitely more flexibility of the clean channel on the V relative to the JP. The JP is a bit warmer in tone, sort of mellow bluesy sound, creamy if that would describe a clean channel. Almost has that Fender Blues Deluxe tone, but not. Actually it sounds quite similar to the Roadster clean "FAT" voice. I doubt that I would miss the Mark V if I sold it. Still a great amp, just not for me.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Thing that bothers me is, 3 posts up, just reading the first paragraph description of your V tells me clearly that something is WRONG with it. Not just the bias, but the sound. The things you're describing sure don't jibe with what I hear when I play mine. Heck, I've had mine long enough to go on record saying that for most settings, I prefer 45 watt mode as the best sounding. It's warmer and less "mid-thick" than 90 watt mode.

I'm thinking your well documented tonal issues stem from something other than a properly functional V. The 45 watt settings/variac mode issues, I think, are caused by something inside that is wrong and is ruining your tones as well as your tubes!

 

[bandit2013]

I would agree with that Dreamtheater. I have also mentioned or at least I thought that I did if I go negative on the Mark V that I am not speaking of the product as a whole, I know my amp has something going on that is not kosher. After writing my last post, I was wondering what is reason behind the differences, I re-tubed the V with all stock Mesa tubes but with a slight differences, V1 and V3 are Mesa SPAX7. Tends to cut some of the ice pick issues. Since I retired the Celestion Cream 90W alnico for the moment so I could run two EV speakers with the Mark V to compare to the Vertical 212 and the JP they now sound closer to each other. V is sounding better than it did. Then it hit me, I started adjusting the 5BEQ and noticed that a drop in the 2K slider did the trick. I had it centered but for some reason it was just killing the tone and enjoyable character. Now that really made a difference and tone of the V is getting much closer to the JP. I tried again thought the V30 cab and still could not stand it, EV made a difference as it has a flat response curve but seems to loosen up the bottom end.

I now have both amps running such that I would consider the V as a good complement to the JP. I would have to say it has been a while since I enjoyed playing the Mark V. In the past the only reference amp I had was the Mark IV. Also I jumped camp and moved on to a Roadster since that was not killing my ears with ice pick tones I was happy and still am.

For once I was able to get the V to sound identical (subjective) to the JP in the moderate gain channels. Still I prefer the JP overall, but I was getting some killer tone out of the Mark V last night that I found it hard to stop playing. Perhaps I need to relearn how to use that amp, and if it is off kilter for some reason I can adjust and compensate for it. I just never cared for the Mesa power tubes in the V, may be due to its character, I am using REDS in the amp and those are the coldest in the Mesa range. What does make a huge difference are the SED =C=, or the TAD (str). I have both of those waiting to be used but wanted to try apples to apples even though one is a lemon.

As for tight bottom end response, and using one cabinet as a reference (Mesa Vertical 212) JP is much tighter and more urgent with a palm muted punch than the Mark V. The Same would apply to the Roadster. JP is just tops in that department. Could it be the Gray color coded power tubes? I will not swap them into the V as it has been a tube killer in the past. I could swap them into the Roadster but rather leave what is good alone.

As for recording, I have done more with my boss GT100 as it was much easier than messing with the mics. However, after I got the Rock Crusher that has changed. I did one recording with the Mark V (rhythm and lead (if you call it that)) were all done with the Mark V and recorded from mic'ing the Celestion Cream Alnico 90W speaker. Turned out great. I may have to replace the speaker though, I may have singed the coil with the JP as of late it started running hot and the tone had shifted and output seems weaker (reason for the EV swap). If I keep the Mark V, I will have to get a replacement Crème and use the other one in the extension cab. Or just get a wide body with C90. I still think there is a future for the Mark V for me, I may say I want to sell it but why have I not done so? If I did, I would get another JP-2C, or wait to see what is coming up next in the Mark Series. If they upgraded the V I may consider that. Mark VI if that is on the books I will wait.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

Interesting, as another thing I've told several members here lately was that after fighting the ice pick for months, I thought through it and instead of doing what everyone else does (that extreme V curve) I turned down 80 to flat... BOOM gone, MUCH better, then I thought "2200 is just below the ice pick spike in the V30s so having 2200 even flat, the speakers are still boosted there. I cut 2200 a few dB and EVERY channel option in C2 and C3 sounds better than it ever has. Boom and Sizzle, GONE!

I've been guilty of not listening to my ears, and listening to what I read, and how others are using it. The extreme V in the 5-band NEVER worked for me, but I was still using the V. Lately I've spent all my attention on forgetting what even recorded tones that I liked used, and just dialing it to sound the best. My conclusions, 80hz flat, 2200 just below flat. Then I can dial presence and 6600 to taste without the ice pick and without the booming.

Back to your amp. (And I know a little, but know you're way more advanced on working on one). Tell me if I"m wrong here... if bias is set to spec (in most amps!) turning it up a bit should warm the sound up (warmer harmonics, etc.), turning it down a bit should cool the sound. Turning it up too much would result in (best way I could think of to describe it) "warm fizz" where turning it down too much would be "cold fizz." I know I'm making up terms, but trying to describe things I heard when changing bias on a couple amps I built and or modded. So, if your's in 45 watt mode is fizzy and burning tubes when in variac mode which should be "cruise" mode for power tubes, it sounds like something is off that is making that bias be WAY hotter than it should be? Does this guess make sense?

I'm finding that if I don't need the brutz of 90 watt and full power, I prefer the warmer 45 watt mode and variac, even for C3 high gain tones. Extreme sounds KILLER with my current 5 band settings, 45 watt/variac. And still would easily blow you out of the room. Let me know if you try my V settings. 80-flat, 240 ^3-4dB, 750 down between bottom line and first line up (NOT ALL THE WAY DOWN :shock: ) 2200 down a couple dB, 6600 to taste with presence. I also find my modern PRS guitars which have phenomenal pickups and are more open and transparent on top, need less on the 6600 or presence or both, than say my JP12.

 

[bandit2013]

The circuitry in the Mark V does many things as well as other amps may do. For instance, there is a plate voltage scheme on some preamp tubes based on toggle switch settings (tweed for one) and channel selection settings. This affects the preamp only. A particular tube may respond well in one mode but sound dramatically different due to shift in its plate voltage. Some of this may add ice to the mix on the higher gain channels and for the tweed voice of the clean channel.

As for the 45W/90W bias voltage, (disconnected in 10W mode as that uses cathode bias) : the more negative the voltage (nominal is -52Vdc based on the schematic but I found it to be -52Vdc when operating in variac mode only, it rises to -59Vdc on full power but on stand-by) the lower the plate current. The more positive grid bias the more plate current. Since the inner pair are operating as a Class A push pull, the plate current will be much higher that it would be for a Class A/B circuit, but not as much as a single ended Class A. I have not seen any recommended settings for this, it is either Class A/B or Class A. All I did was increase the shunt resistor by a few k ohms. Best way to ensure the tubes are not operating out of the safe area is to use a bias probe to measure plate voltage and current. One would think that the bias may be the cause for the tube failures I had in the past. Hard to tell, most of the time I had red plating issue was using Variac mode and 45W setting, channel 3 Mark IV setting with Pentode active. I would not rule out that being an odd thing but if the plate voltage drops in variac power settings, the bias voltage will also be reduced, if it reduces too much the bias voltage will drift closer to ground resulting in overdriving the two tubes. For all I know, I may have had intermittent issues with a screen resistor as they are subject to micro fractures since they are carbon composition, tendency to self degrade due to thermal cycles more than likely has been the root cause. It would be like pulling one of the tubes out and expect the other one to last very long. I have not had a tube failure since replacing all of the screen resistors after the one resistor split open with plenty of smoke. Before or after the needed repair, Ice pick tones were still the dominating issue. I was suspecting the bias may be out of whack causing the tubes to run too hot, that will sound brittle for lack of a better word. It bias were to drift more negative the top end would drop out and the amp would sound muddy. I will have to get a bias probe just for measurement sake so I have benchmark measurements in case something fails and the amp does not sound like it did after replacement of tubes or repair. I have had plenty of tubes fail on me before with my Mark III but based on the use it was normal. Perhaps I was putting the Mark V though the same amount of use when I got it so the tube failure issues may not be issues. At idle, the tubes appear normal, in use the plate seems would turn cherry red but would cool down immediately once you stopped playing. I also observed this with my Mark IV combo. Never noticed that with the Mark III when I owned it. Roadster, RA100, and even the JP do not seem to overheat the plates like the Simul-Class amps do. Assumptions are all I have at the moment, no empirical data to support my claims until I get a bias probe set I will have more answers. So far with selected tubes specifically for the Mark V I have never lost one of those tubes. SED =C=. TAD, gold lion KT77.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

I left out something important. My settings above were with the bright switch on on C3. Now, before you say "well hey moron, you're fighting the ice pick, just turn off the bright switch," I did turn it off and have noted before that I got the "blanket over the speakers" effect. More accurately described as not just a loss of top end frequency levels, but of transparency. Meaning I can turn the bright switch off, and then I CAN turn the 2200 up 3-4dB and can even do the same with 6600. It adds back the treble frequencies, but is less transparent. Less "clear." If you are going for a smoother tone, bright switch off is the simple and maybe first step. I've been trying to keep an open, transparent top end with my high gain settings and it seems more transparent with the bright switch on and toned down elsewhere with the EQ.

With Bright on, and 2200 and 6600 boosted> Mesa V30s = icepick. With those exact settings into 2 1x12 avatars 1 with Emi Governor (V30-ish, the other with Emi Private Jack (greenback-ish), those ice pick settings sounded GREAT! Heck it needed more top end to make it really aggressive. With non-Mesa V30s, even my new settings have some ice pick. The Mesa version V30s and Emi Governor (which also shaves 3-4dB off that ice pick spike compared to regular v30s) sound much closer to each other than a Mesa V30 to a regular Celestion one.

Edit 10/27 - I have been using mostly Mark IV mode previously, and Extreme mode for the last month. Last night I flipped to IIC+ and in that mode, I can indeed boost the 80hz slider 4dB or so, and also the 2200 and 6600. IV is fatter and has more bass, so that's where my "80hz on flat" first started to be an improvement, but Extreme is much more open (with the NFB removed) and it can really boom and sizzle without those things toned down. So, I can see how IIC+ mode, OR JP2C would work with the V shaped EQ. Still, with "loud home" volume, can't use the extreme V on any channel.

 

[bandit2013]

I have used the Mark V CH3 with and without bright switch. I have spent more time on the V in attempts to combat the shrilling voice. Change in preamp tubes seemed to be the cure. Even the SPAX7 helps if the rest of the preamp tubes remain Mesa branded versions.

What works great for Mark IV tone is a dramatic change in preamp tubes.
V1 Mullard LP
V2 Mesa (only effects CH2)
V3 Mullard LP
V4, V5 Mesa or JJ ECC803S (long plate vs short of the Mesa or JJ ECC83s)
V6 Mullard LP
V7 Mesa or Sovtek LPS (the PI tube will influence tone to a mild extent, Mesa 12ax7 enhances bottom and mids were the LPS seems to sharpen the upper frequencies).

Channel and voice that seems to be unusable even with change in controls to compensate: CH1 Tweed, CH2 edge generate the most ice pick tones that really hurt my ears. At low volume (bedroom level) they are okay. Roadster CH1 Tweed is exceptional. CH3, it varies, all channels sound great if using the 5BEQ sliders. The preset EQ adds more ice pick. I did prefer the preset over the 5BEQ with CH2, now it does not sound all that great and prefer the silders over the preset.

Amp chassis and transformers used to run extremely hot, with different power tubes in use (SED =C=) it ran much cooler but still quite warm but more normal for a tube amp. Back of the chassis was measured to be in the range of 185F to 197F (hotter towards the power transformer). I had borrowed an optical thermometer from work. With the SED =C= it was very warm but I could touch it and leave my hands there for a while. Now it operates much cooler (after replacement of screen resistors as one had failed). That may have been part of my issues right there. I did try the Mesa tubes again at 45W in variac mode CH3 the way I liked it, Yep, still had potential to red plate but was not much different than the Mark IV as I could get the seams to glow red with that amp when pushed a bit. I did take a gamble on my accord to mod the bias as this will effect 6L6 use in 45W and 90W, change of 82k to 91k has allowed me to use Mesa tubes again in all power modes. I may get some other resistors perhaps 84.5k or 86.6k 1% half Watt to get closer to stock value of 82k. Bottom end seems to be a bit looser with the 91k, amp sounded much colder with a 100k resistor and I did not like that at all. I would prefer the fixed bias and see no value in making it adjustable since the push pull Class A pair will always be running hot vs the outter Class A/B. Too bad I did not have a bias probe kit to measure Plate voltage and current of the original amp configuration. Before the screen resistors failed and before I made change to bias circuit.

One fix for the V30 in my old Recto cab was EVM12L Black label. Now I have the Celestion Cream back H75 loaded in the 412 cab. The original V30 seemed to be getting brighter as I have installed them in the 412 several times. My new 412 Cab just sounds too good to be true and the Mark V sounds better though it but depends on what preamp tubes I am using. With the Mullards on board, they cut some of the top end and I can actually set higher values on the treble and presence on CH3. The only side effect is character on CH2. I have also used some old Mesa Chinese tubes which really sound great, low noise on all channels but more compression in CH3. They also can add to the brightness level of the amp. Try not to read between the lines on comments I may make on the Mark V. It has been a love/hate relationship since I got it. I had used it extensively with the Variac mode and 45W power but that began to lead into power tube failure as I described before. At first I assumed it may be the original V30 in the 412 cab. That was contributing to the higher than normal top end. The EV speaker helped in several ways, cured the flub and allowed for higher volume. Odd that the new Recto cab is very difficult to get to flub out, old cab was easy, just increase volume. There are some differences between the new and old cab but may be too subtle to make a difference. The Cream backs work great in the old cab and sound very nice with the Roadster. Vertical 212 on the other hand is just a bit more brighter than the new 412 cab but sounds so good with the JP.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

You just made my day! Thanks!!!! I've avoided it for quite a while now. Time to change out some tubes.

 

[kreatorkills]

To make a long story short, I've come to the conclusion that you can try everything in the world but what it really comes down to is you have to have the volume high enough to really push the tubes, and turn down the volume on your guitar to between 5 and 8. This is were the sweetness and harmonics really shine and any ice pick is eliminated. If you can't do this because of situation then yes, you will have to play much more with everything to get a tone you can live with.

 

[Dreamtheaterrules]

My problem with that is simple. I've tried it before with other amps. Live or at home, I can't have a balancing act where if I bump a volume control I'm suddenly knocking things off the walls, scaring the crap of the the dogs and angering the wife. I had a friend suggest the "crank the amp and turn your guitar way down" thing several years ago. It doesn't work for me. And I mainly play PRS guitars which have the best volume pots I've ever heard or tried, for retaining tone and cleaning up nicely when rolled down. But the whole philosophy of that doesn't work for me. You always lose treble eventually (again, the PRS's are better at this than any other guitar I've tried, but still, they do eventually) and taking the ice pick out that way, just means you really didn't deal with it at the source. All this is IMHO, do what works for you, consult your physician for... well you know the rest.

My issue is what others have said. When you have what you feel is "enough" top end, it can be brittle. If preamp tubes allow to smooth that out, and not just attenuate the level of the top end, then THAT will be the answer for me, and what finally makes the V the "dream" amp I thought it would be. It's close now. I've read too many guys face the same issues, and say that pre-amp tubes transformed it into what they thought it would be. Smoother AND more open. Everything else is already there!

(And yes, I realize all this should probably be said in the V section of the forum).

 

[bandit2013]

I have an attenuator if I really need to reduce the volume level and still have the sweet spot.

I play loud, may start off at a lower volume but it eventually gets pushed up for desired effect and feel. I like how the amp sounds at various volume levels. The JP has more variations in tightness and more organic feel across the master volume control. You do need to push it past noon to get the honey from the pot. Mark V, yep, need to be past 11 is where it punches (this is with using the FX loop as I have more control on the preamp section volume level as that can influence the character).

I believe my tube setup I listed above was primarily for SED =C= power tubes. I have changed my Mark V around and my change the speaker in it from time to time. Power tube choice and speaker choice may require a change in preamp selection. Now I went back to the beginning (Mesa) but used SPAX7 in V1 and V3. I was missing some midrange so I changed preamp tubes. What I really need is a tube tester, some of these have long hours of use and some do not. Perhaps some need to be tossed or at least separated form the good ones. Since I have had issues bonding with the Mark V, it is getting better though. I find it easy to make changes to the combo once in a while. The JP-2C has inspired me to take another look at my other amps. I am eager to get started on another recording but trying to figure out what other amp shall accompany the JP.