Mark V comparisons

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mindbenderzzz

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So I was considering a Mark V but wanna go smaller and other than less power what wou;d I need giving up as I noticed the smaller ones have 2 Chanels are all the other options in the third Chanel made up for elsewhere or are there some things lost in the shuffle so to speak.

I really don’t need the 90 watts and like the smaller size of say the 35 but what am I loosing if I go smaller.
 
So I was considering a Mark V but wanna go smaller and other than less power what wou;d I need giving up as I noticed the smaller ones have 2 Chanels are all the other options in the third Chanel made up for elsewhere or are there some things lost in the shuffle so to speak.

I really don’t need the 90 watts and like the smaller size of say the 35 but what am I loosing if I go smaller.
You can comb thru the past posts on this forum and get more info. For example this post

V:25 vs V:90

But here's a quick list of features you'll lose with a V:25 or V:35

* 2 chans vs 3 (as you noted)
* No Tweed, Edge or Mark 1 voicings
* No Global Master vol
* No 6L6/el34 power tube
* No per chan Preset EQ
* No Tube Rect
* No Slave out

The V:35 however does have the Cabclone.
 
Full disclosure, I have a V:90 but not a VII. There's players who do and I trust their opinion which has been extremely positive. It has been 14 years since the V:90 and there's been many improvements since. Just one players opinion here... if $ is no object the VII is the ultimate Mark. It's a more focused "Mark" amp then the V, less compressed tonally with many updated features.
 
You had to ask? I have both. I am trying to keep this short but comparing the differences of the Mark V90 VS the Mark VII is not going to be a short three sentences. Trying my best to condense this. You could always download the user manuals and read over them. There are plenty of videos on the two amps to review. It is a tough choice to make. After all that, the only recommendation I can provide you is to try them out in person as that will reveal far more to you than what you may get from a video or sound clip. If you do so, Print out the suggested settings pages to get you something for reference when you try them out.

Power section differences: the Mark V90 has a few features that the other Mark series amps do not have. First one to have a 5U4GB tube rectifier which was required to sustain the 10W single ended Class A power mode. It can also be used in the 45W power modes for CH1 and CH2 if you desired a little bit of sag. In 90W mode, that tube rectifier feature is disabled. CH3 does have a feature used in the Mark IV. Pentode/Triode switch for the center pair of tubes. In other words, it is 45W pentode, 22W-25W triode. In 90W mode it will be 90W pentode or 75W triode. Since Mesa included the single ended Class A 10W power mode, they finally used the correct terminology for the Simul-Class modes as the Class A is as described in the patent, an extended Class A push-pull which is a Class AB with the Class A operation extended to prevent running into Class B mode when saturated and clipping. In most cases many will call it Class A for simplicity.

the Mark VII is a bit different in its power section. It only has three power modes: 4 tubes in 90W Pentode Simul-Class, 45W pentode extended class A push-pull or 25W triode extended class A push-pull. It does not have a single ended Class A power mode as the Mark V90 was the only Mark amp to make use of such. There is no tube rectifier with this amp as it was not required. You cannot select triode or pentode modes as that is set by the multi-watt toggle switch. The 25W power mode is quite robust and sounds really good. I would not consider it to be weak in any way. 45W pentode is also quite strong, a bit more robust than the Mark V90 at 45W pentode. There are some similarities though as the V90-45W in triode was similar to the 25W power mode of the Mark VII.

In short, you do have some tailoring of the V90 that does not get noticed all that much as they usually use the amp in its highest power modes as the need for more gain is always a factor.

As far as voicing is concerned, The Mark V90 preamp has 9 different modes. Three on each channel. CH1 clean, fat, tweed. CH2 edge, crunch, Mark I, CH3 IIC+, IV, Extreme. I would not let the number of preamp tubes fool you into thinking it has more gain stages as some may believe. It does not. CH3 may have an extra triode gain stage but it is used as a buffer in front of the last gain stage that is used to define the IIC+, IC, and extreme modes. The Mark V90 also has a different tuned circuit, similar to the Mark IVB when compared to the IIC+, III, JP2C and the Mark VII. All of the Mark V models have the GEQ circuit in front of the FX loop as it is used to derive the send level for the loop. The recovery stage of the loop also includes the global master volume and solo boost. This can be fully bypassed and any losses associated with the FX loop circuitry are gone, the channel masters will be used for final drive output volume. It is quite interesting how that changes the character of the V90. Not sure if the V:25 or V:35 have the full bypass feature.

The Mark VII has only 7 different modes. CH1 clean, fat, crunch, CH2 fat, crunch, VII, CH3 IIB, IIC+ and IV. Two modes are copies, fat and crunch. If you like running all cleans or variations you can run CH1 clean, CH2 fat and CH3 IIB. If you like to grind all day, CH1 crunch, CH2 VII and CH3 IIC+ or IV modes.

Clean and fat can be driven quite well with just the gain control. So if you like to have a clean but dirty sound it is achievable. Crunch is also different as it is not a feature of the Mark I mode on the Mark V90. It is more of a hybrid circuit as part of the lead drive circuitry but transplanted in a different position that places the tone stack after the overdrive circuit. That is similar to the crunch on the V but not exactly the same. VII mode is much like crunch but uses the full lead drive circuit stages, also in front of the tone stack. I feel the crunch and VII modes are more like the Badlander crunch and crush modes. Much of the same circuit but the BAD uses a different tone stack driver circuit so they are different when compared. the IIC+ mode is far more aggressive in the Mark VII than what I have experienced with the Mark V. It is on par with the JP2C but without the gain pulls or presence pulls. Mark IV mode is impressive as well. Probably the most aggressive of them all, including the Mark IVB I used to have. The Mark V extreme is comparable to the VII mode in some ways but not. Extreme mode alters the negative feedback circuit and reconnects its feed from the 8-phm tap to the 4-ohm tap. Mark I mode does the same thing but only with Mark I mode. Hard to say if there is any shifting of the negative feedback circuit with the Mark VII.

If you are considering the Mark V90 and the Mark VII amps, I would try them out first if at all possible. While you are at it, give the JP2C a try. Would not let the 100W keep you from that amp as it is quite tame and bedroom compliant in many ways at full power. the Mark V90 at full power does have one advantage when using the FX loop, the global master volume allows you to manage output volume with ease. JP2C channel master is after the FX loop as well and its control is more gradual than the Mark V90. Mesa did a decent job with the JP2C. Unlike the Mark III DRG and Mark IVB I had in the past, they were mostly at full power once you adjusted the volume so you can hear it. Not what I would call a bedroom amp. Sure I could have run the other power modes but felt they were insufficient for my enjoyment. The Mark VII is a beast too. Surprisingly it does not dramatically change in character using the 25W power mode. There are limits to how low you can adjust the output level similar to the Mark III and Mark IV amps I had long ago. However, it can run in silent mode for use with headphones since it has the cab clone IR and integrated speaker load when there is nothing plugged into the speaker jacks.

Added bonuses: The mark VII is full midi for channel changes and feature activation (FX loop, Reverb, EQ). I run two Mark VII in stereo so I only need one footswitch to control both. I daisy chained the two amps with a midi cable. JP2C and the Triple Crowns can do that as well.

Now for the other amps that have come up, the IIC+ Reissue. I am curious how it stacks up? Then there are the three Badlanders, 100W, 50W and 25W models. I would not say it is a true Rectifier as it is more of a hybrid. It sits rather close to the Mark VII in some respects but yet slightly different. Mesa has been making some decent amps over the years and the new one's are very impressive. It all depends on what you want, need or desire. I could not choose between one or the other considering what I already have now.
 
the Mark VII is a bit different in its power section. It only has three power modes: 4 tubes in 90W Pentode Simul-Class, 45W pentode extended class A push-pull or 25W triode extended class A push-pull. It does not have a single ended Class A power mode as the Mark V90 was the only Mark amp to make use of such. There is no tube rectifier with this amp as it was not required. You cannot select triode or pentode modes as that is set by the multi-watt toggle switch. The 25W power mode is quite robust and sounds really good. I would not consider it to be weak in any way. 45W pentode is also quite strong, a bit more robust than the Mark V90 at 45W pentode. There are some similarities though as the V90-45W in triode was similar to the 25W power mode of the Mark VII.
Ahhh interesting... was not aware the VII 90W SimulClass was Pentode only. Personally I find the V:90 Triode/Pentode choice for Ch 3 90W Simulclass a very valuable option. It's just my preference of Triode for lead work cause of the inherent smoothness and richness. Pentode is great for rhythm.

BTW, Excellent detailed feature comparison between the V:90 / VII @bandit2013
 
You had to ask? I have both. I am trying to keep this short but comparing the differences of the Mark V90 VS the Mark VII is not going to be a short three sentences. Trying my best to condense this. You could always download the user manuals and read over them. There are plenty of videos on the two amps to review. It is a tough choice to make. After all that, the only recommendation I can provide you is to try them out in person as that will reveal far more to you than what you may get from a video or sound clip. If you do so, Print out the suggested settings pages to get you something for reference when you try them out.

Power section differences: the Mark V90 has a few features that the other Mark series amps do not have. First one to have a 5U4GB tube rectifier which was required to sustain the 10W single ended Class A power mode. It can also be used in the 45W power modes for CH1 and CH2 if you desired a little bit of sag. In 90W mode, that tube rectifier feature is disabled. CH3 does have a feature used in the Mark IV. Pentode/Triode switch for the center pair of tubes. In other words, it is 45W pentode, 22W-25W triode. In 90W mode it will be 90W pentode or 75W triode. Since Mesa included the single ended Class A 10W power mode, they finally used the correct terminology for the Simul-Class modes as the Class A is as described in the patent, an extended Class A push-pull which is a Class AB with the Class A operation extended to prevent running into Class B mode when saturated and clipping. In most cases many will call it Class A for simplicity.

the Mark VII is a bit different in its power section. It only has three power modes: 4 tubes in 90W Pentode Simul-Class, 45W pentode extended class A push-pull or 25W triode extended class A push-pull. It does not have a single ended Class A power mode as the Mark V90 was the only Mark amp to make use of such. There is no tube rectifier with this amp as it was not required. You cannot select triode or pentode modes as that is set by the multi-watt toggle switch. The 25W power mode is quite robust and sounds really good. I would not consider it to be weak in any way. 45W pentode is also quite strong, a bit more robust than the Mark V90 at 45W pentode. There are some similarities though as the V90-45W in triode was similar to the 25W power mode of the Mark VII.

In short, you do have some tailoring of the V90 that does not get noticed all that much as they usually use the amp in its highest power modes as the need for more gain is always a factor.

As far as voicing is concerned, The Mark V90 preamp has 9 different modes. Three on each channel. CH1 clean, fat, tweed. CH2 edge, crunch, Mark I, CH3 IIC+, IV, Extreme. I would not let the number of preamp tubes fool you into thinking it has more gain stages as some may believe. It does not. CH3 may have an extra triode gain stage but it is used as a buffer in front of the last gain stage that is used to define the IIC+, IC, and extreme modes. The Mark V90 also has a different tuned circuit, similar to the Mark IVB when compared to the IIC+, III, JP2C and the Mark VII. All of the Mark V models have the GEQ circuit in front of the FX loop as it is used to derive the send level for the loop. The recovery stage of the loop also includes the global master volume and solo boost. This can be fully bypassed and any losses associated with the FX loop circuitry are gone, the channel masters will be used for final drive output volume. It is quite interesting how that changes the character of the V90. Not sure if the V:25 or V:35 have the full bypass feature.

The Mark VII has only 7 different modes. CH1 clean, fat, crunch, CH2 fat, crunch, VII, CH3 IIB, IIC+ and IV. Two modes are copies, fat and crunch. If you like running all cleans or variations you can run CH1 clean, CH2 fat and CH3 IIB. If you like to grind all day, CH1 crunch, CH2 VII and CH3 IIC+ or IV modes.

Clean and fat can be driven quite well with just the gain control. So if you like to have a clean but dirty sound it is achievable. Crunch is also different as it is not a feature of the Mark I mode on the Mark V90. It is more of a hybrid circuit as part of the lead drive circuitry but transplanted in a different position that places the tone stack after the overdrive circuit. That is similar to the crunch on the V but not exactly the same. VII mode is much like crunch but uses the full lead drive circuit stages, also in front of the tone stack. I feel the crunch and VII modes are more like the Badlander crunch and crush modes. Much of the same circuit but the BAD uses a different tone stack driver circuit so they are different when compared. the IIC+ mode is far more aggressive in the Mark VII than what I have experienced with the Mark V. It is on par with the JP2C but without the gain pulls or presence pulls. Mark IV mode is impressive as well. Probably the most aggressive of them all, including the Mark IVB I used to have. The Mark V extreme is comparable to the VII mode in some ways but not. Extreme mode alters the negative feedback circuit and reconnects its feed from the 8-phm tap to the 4-ohm tap. Mark I mode does the same thing but only with Mark I mode. Hard to say if there is any shifting of the negative feedback circuit with the Mark VII.

If you are considering the Mark V90 and the Mark VII amps, I would try them out first if at all possible. While you are at it, give the JP2C a try. Would not let the 100W keep you from that amp as it is quite tame and bedroom compliant in many ways at full power. the Mark V90 at full power does have one advantage when using the FX loop, the global master volume allows you to manage output volume with ease. JP2C channel master is after the FX loop as well and its control is more gradual than the Mark V90. Mesa did a decent job with the JP2C. Unlike the Mark III DRG and Mark IVB I had in the past, they were mostly at full power once you adjusted the volume so you can hear it. Not what I would call a bedroom amp. Sure I could have run the other power modes but felt they were insufficient for my enjoyment. The Mark VII is a beast too. Surprisingly it does not dramatically change in character using the 25W power mode. There are limits to how low you can adjust the output level similar to the Mark III and Mark IV amps I had long ago. However, it can run in silent mode for use with headphones since it has the cab clone IR and integrated speaker load when there is nothing plugged into the speaker jacks.

Added bonuses: The mark VII is full midi for channel changes and feature activation (FX loop, Reverb, EQ). I run two Mark VII in stereo so I only need one footswitch to control both. I daisy chained the two amps with a midi cable. JP2C and the Triple Crowns can do that as well.

Now for the other amps that have come up, the IIC+ Reissue. I am curious how it stacks up? Then there are the three Badlanders, 100W, 50W and 25W models. I would not say it is a true Rectifier as it is more of a hybrid. It sits rather close to the Mark VII in some respects but yet slightly different. Mesa has been making some decent amps over the years and the new one's are very impressive. It all depends on what you want, need or desire. I could not choose between one or the other considering what I already have now.
Wow amazing detail I mostly wanna lean toward the VII but there a few things I the V that make me still want that as well but this is not an easy choice thanks for your info it is very valuable
 
You basically lose channel 2 from the 90W version.
The Mark VII is quite a bit smaller than the V, with 90/45/25W switches (instead of the 90/45/10W switches that the 90 has).
 
I find the VII to be noticeably brighter than the V. The presence needs to be dialed back a lot more on the VII, at least for me. I like the built in cab clone IR of the VII and smaller form factor. The SOLO boost of the V is not available on the VII so I now use a volume clean boost in the loop on the VII for solos and that seems to work pretty well. I do miss the overall OUTPUT knob of the V, but not as much as I thought I would.
 
There are pros and cons when it comes to comparing amps of each generation. Sometimes some may not bond with the next best thing and favor what was made in the past more than the current offering. At least their first attempt on a IIC+ reissue was not a total flop. JP2C is decent for what it is and what it is not. First Mesa I got my hands on that had midi control. The second was the TC50, why I bought the TC100 was thinking it would rival the RA100 but it did not. Once you figure out what tubes to use in the RA it is hard to beat. Still, the TC series are cool amps. Mark VII being the second gen to get Midi was the reason for me to end up with two of them. I can control both with one footswitch along with a midi cable connecting the two amps. (I swapped the faceplate I ordered for the JP2C to match the V212 cab so that explains why there is a JP2C badge in the lower right corner of the amp on the right).

20240310_215123.jpg


The Mark V90 becomes a bit more difficult to manage that without extra gear (two midi-matrix units and a midi controller). It is not impossible but not straight forward.

I would not personally choose an amp based on my opinion or video content. Best to actually use it in person and listen for yourself. That may sound easier than it is since not many places are stocking the Mark V90 since the Mark VII rolled out. You may be able to find a used one. The Mark V90 is still in production based on the Mesa website. I was curious to see how long it will remain in production now that the next gen has been out for at least a year. If you are looking to buy new, sit down with the JP2C for a while. If they have one in the showroom sometime next year the IIC+ Reissue may be available to test drive. It all depends on what you are after in terms of features and options. the Badlander 100W is a beast in its own way and from what I hear about the 50W that too can deliver.

I purposely left out the pros and cons of each as there was no point in doing that. What matters most to the buyer is the sound quality and features and options that make it easy to use. The Mark V90 is different than the Mark VII. Chose which you like best. Not sure what changes if any Mesa did to the Mark V90 over the years after I got mine. I do know the transformers have changed over to Schumacker since the supplier that made the transformers decided to close for good during or after the pandemic.

They are tube amps after all. Power tube replacements is rather a simple task. No disassembly required except for removal of the tube cage. When it comes to the preamp tubes, that is where things can be challenging. The Mark V 90 did have some challenges to gaining access to the preamp tubes, more so a pain in the head format. Mesa may have amended their design of the V head for ease of preamp tube access. You can get to them after you take out the power tubes though but it is tight. The tube shields are one thing and trying to get them back on is frustrating. Then trying to seat the preamp tubes by feel is another task. Here are the fun pictures of to look at.

I still have my 2012 Mark V90, it was a head when I got it but thought I could just convert it to a combo with the idea of using an EVM12L Black Label speaker. I recently retired it. Just never bonded with the amp. The amp on the right is the Mark VII when I first got it before I transferred the JP2C faceplate.

20230730_190657.jpg


The Mark VII is much like the JP2C and the Triple Crown, it is not necessary to use the footswitch if you do not mind switching the mini toggles on the front panel. The Mark V90 on the other hand is not so user friendly. Instead, there are rotary controls on the back to select channels and such. The Mark V90 is a medium width amp often referred to as the "wide body" which was the term used when the Mark IVB came out since they made the chassis a bit longer to fit all of the controls and such.

Back panel of the Mark V90. The Mark V combo never came with an EV speaker, they use the MC90 black shadow speaker which is quite different. I believe the last time Mesa used EVM12L was with the Mark IVA combo before they changed over to the wide body format. That seems to be standard issue with the combo amps like the Mark V, Mark VII and JP2C combos. I just had a preference for the EVM12L speaker. I did have to add a brace to the rear panel as it vibrated like hell from the EV speaker. The power transformer is not very large and I think it is the same one used on the Dual Rectifier Roadster. The small silver transformer is the power choke, the power transformer is just behind it. It is a decent size. Still a decent amp though. Perhaps not so compatible with the EV speaker as I hoped it would be.

20180630_152140.jpg


The size of the power transformer is easier to see in this image. It is on the left. I had the chassis out to swap preamp tubes and to replace the speaker in the cabinet.

20230702_142614.jpg


I had other reasons why I converted the head to a combo. Getting access to the preamp tubes was a pain. Always had to remove the power tubes and try to reach around the output transformer to get to the V1 tube. The head did have a removable face plate but that did not make access of the preamp tubes any easier, the panel it was mounted too was solid, no cutout to gain access. That is what I found with mine anyways. Not sure if that changed after 2012. I found it much easier to just pull the chassis out. I took off the tube shields as I was tube rolling the amp. I would not use the amp without the shields as it keeps the preamp tubes secure and may help to limit vibration.
If you want to see the Mark V90 Guts, here is what it looks like.

20190630_111641.jpg


So, when it comes to the other two power houses in the same price range for a new amp, there are some major changes from the Mark V90 when comparing to the Mark VII and the JP2C. They may be smaller in size but more to the traditional size before Mesa made the widebody format. The Mark IVB was not the first as there were some long chassis formats of the IIC+ and III more fitting of the Coliseum format KRG or 180W if you like. That goes back to the IIB+ up to the Mark III platforms.

Here is the Mark VII next to the JP2C. The Mark VII is the one on the left. The power transformers may look to be different size but they measure about the same. There is a difference in tone between a 90W Simul-Class and a 100W Class AB amp. the Class AB will have a darker voice to it and the Simul-Class will be a bit brighter but not by much. Despite the 90W vs 100W, they are both respectable power house amps that are essentially equivalent in output power peaking around 145W. Same for the Mark V90. Note that you will not experience the full potential of these amps in combo form unless you add in some external cabs. Sure you can do that. They work just fine if you unplug the combo speaker and drive a 412 cab if you so desire. The disadvantage of the combo vs the head is the extra weight. If your intention is to make use of other cabs, you may want to reconsider which format works best for you.


20230729_165316.jpg


Gaining access to the preamp tubes is quite simple but may be a tight fit unless you place the amp on its side for ease of access. Remove the front panel and there they are. I did try preamp tube access from the back of the amp with the power tubes removed, not possible with adult sized hands. The cutout on the inner board is much larger than that of the JP2C but both provide access to the preamp tubes.

20230803_233501.jpg


This may be for the standard production version of the JP2C. The limited edition signature model did not have a removable front plate. Chassis extraction method was probably the only practice to gain access to the preamp tubes. Trying to get your hands around the fan and the small transformers was not practical. The Chassis can be removed after you get the power tubes out. JP2C and Mark VII. With the Mark V90 and many other Mesa amps, I can get it out without the need to remove the power tubes. Getting the JP2C or Mark VII chassis back in is a pain, more so getting the reverb and the power cable back in place. and needs to be done before you get the chassis into its final position. I have gut shots of both as well. Chassis is a bit tighter to fit it all in, so there are several layers of boards, and the power tube board is not visible.

Gut shot of the Mark VII:

20230820_103549.jpg


And here is the JP2C just for kicks:

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Owning one or the other or both, eventually you will have to address the preamp tube replacement. Just thought I would add this which is more than most will be aware of before buying. If you do decide on one, just keep your hands out of the internals when handling the chassis. The caps can hold a charge for a long time after power was removed. There are internal bleed resistors to dissipate stored energy but if they fail, there is no way to tell by looking at the internals. Play it safe. It is not necessary to pull the chassis in most cases. Unless you had the JP2C limited edition. Not sure what to expect with the newly released Mark IIC+ Reissue. will be interesting to find out.
 
The 90W Mark V sounds extremely well at bedroom levels when you take advantage of the master output volume control.
I believe this is a crucial point in its favor if you’re willing to buy an amp to play mostly or a considerable amount of time at home.

Giulio
 
So I ended up ordering a mark VII head which will take a while cause I got a custom color with the wicker grill bit very happy to get one
 

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