Mark V, Celestion Cream Alnico 90W

[bandit2013]

Bump............

I have the Celestion Crème 90W Alnico back in the Mark V combo. I had to know for sure if it was dead or not... If it was toast I was going to get another as this speaker just makes CH3 come alive much better than what ever else I have used with this amp. I am not so sure of the characteristics of breakin in an Alnico speaker, a hot bell may not indicate a damages voice coil but a change in magnetic stress on the puck is more than likely. I have also noticed the same thing will occur with the Neodymium driver as I had a Tonker light that got very hot too (end result was a scratchy voice coil so it is no longer in my possession, I should have gutted it and add the magnet to my collection). Same thing happed with the WGS Black Hawk HP100 but the result was a dramatic tone change that was undesired. I am in debate what to do with it.

The Celestion Crème 90W Alnico is back in use. I did not notice any peculiar tone or sounds indicative of voice coil damage and it no longer smells like burnt phenolic resin when in use. That may have been the voice coil cooking or something else like the adhesive used to prevent vibration and displacement of the puck. Hard to say really. At least I have my happy face back on as this speaker just sounds so good it is hard to believe. It is even better with the V4 saturation mod (which is the primary reason the MC90 came out as I had further interest in keeping the Mark V, not that the MC90 is bad, it just has a tone I am not fond of for this amp, and besides money already spent and may as well use the Crème until it is no longer usable if it is really impaired.

Another reason why the Crème 90W Alnico is back in the Mark V, I wanted to take the opportunity to hear it combined with the Celestion RedBack 150W ceramic magnet speaker with the 2 inch voice coil. The Redback was in the Mark V combo for a short period but found it to retard the upper frequency range too aggressively for my liking. I believe the Redback may need more break in period so it is now in a deep 1x12 extension cabinet. When combined with the Crème on the Clean channel I get a mix of vintage vibe with an acoustic chime that sounds complete. The Redback is perfect for the clean channel especially when using a piezo pickup. The Crème tends to be more vintage sounding and does not remain neutral on the clean channel. Still it sounds great on its own but much better when combined in parallel with the Redback.

CH2 sounds even better than before. I had always thought a pair of EV speakers to rule the Crunch tone on CH2, I could not be so wrong. the Crème and Redback work extremely well together even though the Cream has the top end in abundance but will not get into brittle territory like the other speakers (V30, MC90, and the EV). Character just remains fluidic especially with the midrange. The redback in a deep 1x12 cabinet adds depth to the vocal ring of the power chord and it does not compete with the Crème in any way. Both seem to have a forward presence on the pick attack. It almost seems that the response time of both speakers is a dead match. Compare that to the MC90 or V30 when paired with the EV speaker there is a slight delay on the EV relative to the V30 or MC90 which does sound a bit interesting (seems to add a bit of ambience). With the Crème blended with the Red (call it pink?) I am hearing more of a 3D tone that is just earie to the senses which makes it sound awesome.

CH3 just roars as it should. I thought the Crème sounded great by itself and with all stock tubes. The Saturation mod brings out the bottom and lower mids and shores up the top end to provide a more tight tone. The Crème 90W is still on top with its tonal character. Running parallel to the Redback in pink mode (LOL) just adds more depth and authority to the Mark II, Mark IV and Extreme voice. To me it sounds perfect, exactly what the tone doctor ordered and the prescription is working (perhaps it is just an audible hallucination) I am definitely hooked on this now as it is so addictive. Dust has settled on the JP-2C cover as the amp remains cold under its logo'd blanket. The same applies to the TC-50, Roaster and RA100s. As it seems I spend more time playing the amp that is in the family room than what is in the studio. Move everything to the family room???? no. I guess I will have to force myself to cycle the amps as well as my guitars. :shock: I will find it hard not to play though the Mark V on a daily basis. Going from a love/hate relationship to just love, the marriage of the Crème and Redback has changed my relationship with the Mark V but only because of the Saturation mod. (change in V4, easiest thing to do actually and worth the tryout if your amp is on the brittle side of the fence on CH3).

 

[gag halfrunt]

Wow, thanks for bumping your thread with a new post. This entire thread is so full of useful, detailed testing info. Thanks so much for posting it. It's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I've got a Mark V combo that came with an Eminence Governor speaker. It's only a 60w speaker, so there's that to worry about, but I have to say, so far, it's not a bad tonal option. But I'm sure there are better ones.

I've never been a big fan of the MC90, so I was really glad to read about your experiences with the Jenson, the Cream Alnico, and the EVM12L. Ill have to check out the Cream Alnico.

 

[bandit2013]

I had an early recording of the crème 90W alnico that I probably removed when cleaning up my sound cloud account.
This was a project by accident and was centered around a reverb pedal effect. The all of the guitar parts were recorded from the Mark V with the Celestion Crème 90W speaker. I did use an attenuator between the speaker and the amp. Note the amp had a cocktail of long plate preamp tubes and a few stock Mesa 12AX7. Did not have the V4 mod as the recording predates the thread. The Celestion Crème 90W speaker was a decision maker to keep the Mark V. How it sounds with the V4 mod is also incredible. This is effect heavy and in some areas the second bass track almost sounds like a guitar but I was using a 4 string long scale bass with a guitar pick. Many layers in this one, also the only Mark V recording I have at the moment.

https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/tempted01wav

The saturation mod brings the amp to a different level. From what I recall the Eminence Governor is supposed to be voiced like the V30. Still by far the best V30 speaker combination in a cabinet has got to be the Vertical 212. However when dealing with the combo things get a bit tricky to match the speaker to the amp as well as have enough headroom in the power rating of the voice coil to prevent a short life. I tried the Celestion Crème because I was fed up with everything else. Had no clue how the speaker would sound. It the Celestion site even had a clip it would be the same recording they use with the rest. Sorry that is not a good way to reveal the character and tone of any speaker. Perhaps I am not a fan of re-amping as you loose the coupling between the speaker and the guitar.

MC90 actually sounded really good with the V4 saturation mod. However I wanted to get as much out of the amp as I could. EV was the option as I had one in there before (must be front mounted and the grill will not fit over the rim of the aluminum basket without modifications due to the lack of space available for preamp tube changes if the speaker is rear mounted). I tried that with my Mark IV and finally did the same to the Mark V when I got the combo shell.

Special note on the Crème 90W Alnico speaker. It will take time to break in.... Use clean channel mostly but you can move to CH2 and CH3 at a reduced volume for a while. Once the spider has softened up a bit the speaker just sounds killer. May not be as loud as the EV but it sounds very similar on the bottom end, has a bit more midrange and the top end is rolled off a bit so the harsh or brittle tone of the Mark V will not be killing your ears if you dial it in too bright. Speaker is well balanced and more forward in response than most speakers I have tried. Of course this is all subjective and the $300 cost is difficult to justify on one speaker. The EV black Label speaker is very close to that price tag too. Also this Celestion Crème does have a mild vintage tone to it and is more noticeable with the clean channel. Not a honky tone speaker like the MC90. It is not harsh like a V30 as it lacks the fizzy tone at low volume but had the full punch and amazing character the V30. Also I do not get tired listening to the Mark V though the Crème 90W like I do with the V30 loaded 412 cabs. I am sure I may have damaged the speaker when I ran the JP though it but it still sounds great.

Do not go for the tempting Redback 150W speaker (it may sound incredible with the clean channel but seems to lack the top end with distorted channels. I have not fully broken in the speaker so it is hard to tell how it would sound once the top end blossoms. For a primary combo speaker it will sound like you placed a blanket over the cabinet so it is too early to tell if this would work well in a combo by itself. However if you love the clean channel and do not really sue the higher gain channels I would go for it as the redback sounded the best over all others I have tried with the clean channel settings). If you like to play at top loudness the EV may be a better choice for you but will take some getting used too. Lower volumes it is good as well. Excellent for the clean channel but can get boomy. Ch2 Crunch with the gain dimed is where the EV shines. V4 saturation mod (12AT7) also sounds great with the EV as well. Note if you do go the EV route, the 4 stud screws may not be long enough if rear mounting the speaker. There may be a few other brands that have EV clones. Some are more suited for closed back and some for open back. I may eventually try an Eminence speaker someday. At the moment I am enjoying the Crème along with the Redback in an extension cab.

 

[bandit2013]

Bump again.....thinking of getting a pair of the Celestion Crème 90W ALNICO to throw into the RA100 combo. I actually prefer the combo with the horizontal cab vs the celestion cream back G12H75. Probably because I set it on top of the horizontal cab. I think the Anlico crème may sound great with the RA combo. Had to look back at this thread and see if I had tried the RA with the 90W crème. Since it has more bottom end than the cream backs in an open cab format and a bit more high frequency roll off, all I need to do is roll up the treble. Duh. I do not think I did that when I tried the cream alnico 90W. The Celestion copper head looks interesting even though it is a neo driver. May end up with that instead once they become available. $299 per speaker on the Alnico is a bit steep especially if it turns out I do not like them. Food for thought. As for the Mark V, I finally have it dialed in with the Organic Timber Rhapsody G12F speaker. The OTR likes to be driven by a very bright amp, which is what the Mark V is with all 12AX7 tubes in the preamp (AT7 not needed).

 

[bandit2013]

Not thinking about it any more as I have ordered them already. Hope it works out in the RA 100 combo. If not they should do well in one of the Vertical 212 cabs (not that I am eager to open them up at the moment).

 

[bandit2013]

Oh yeah, the alnico 90W creams sound great in the RA100 combo. I was surprised that the clean channel was not burdened with too much bass. Actually it was bold and crisp. Lo and Hi gain sounds great too. raw and meaty in the midrange but not too much, tight bottom end and enough brightness that has a chime to it without sounding harsh. Lo channel gains the most as it no longer thins out. For what I like to use the RA100 combo for, the crème alnico speakers are perfect. I just wish they were more affordable as I had to borrow from my guitar build fund which is now empty..... At least they were worth it.

http://www.forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=74105

 

[dmcnevin70]

Hi, just happened upon your thread on the Mark V with the Celestion Alnico Cream. Are you still happy with that combination? I just picked up a Used Mark V with an Eminence Governor and I need to swap it out for something, and I usually swap my combo amp speakers for Celestion Gold Alnico. Is the investment in the Cream worth it in this amp?

 

[bandit2013]

Hi, just happened upon your thread on the Mark V with the Celestion Alnico Cream. Are you still happy with that combination? I just picked up a Used Mark V with an Eminence Governor and I need to swap it out for something, and I usually swap my combo amp speakers for Celestion Gold Alnico. Is the investment in the Cream worth it in this amp?

It all depends on tubes or mods done to the Mark V. In stock form, the Mark V can be extremely bright or brittle sounding on CH3. The Eminence Governor does not have high enough power rating (75W). I can understand the need to change it. Unfortunately I am no longer using the Alnico Crème 90W speaker in the Mark V combo due to burned out voice coil. Speaker still works but tends to pull in more midrange than desired after the coil overheated when I ran the JP-2C into it. I have since then gone back to an EVM12L black label speaker as that is as close to the old Mesa EV black shadow speaker. I have also made some mods to the preamp to reduce the ice pick tone from CH3 and as a result it also eliminated the flub and farts I was getting prior. The EV speaker is a better performer but before I made the mods it had a sterile tone to it. After mods, it is perfect. Celestion Alnico Crème is very expensive and probably not worth the investment. The Redback is very similar in tone and can handle the abuse due to design differences in the voice coil (larger diameter). Alnico magnets will get very hot when you are driving them hard, and the heat will reduce the magnetic field temporarily. However, the voice coil can be damaged if the thermal expansion causes interference with the voice coil. Ceramic magnets to not get hot and they retain the magnetic field under heavy use. If you are into that vintage tone (typically with more roll off on the upper frequency range), the Redback is a better bargain than the Alnico version. Also the Redback sounds incredible with the clean channel, similar to the EV character but not the same. I am still waiting on the reviews of the Celestion Copper back speaker. https://celestion.com/product/199/neo_250_copperback/ For now I will stick with the EV speaker in my Mark V combo. Since I made some mods, it is almost required. I doubt the MC90 or Crème 90W Alnico would last very long. I was thinking of trying out the Redback again as that speaker definitely had that AC/DC tone on CH2, when recorded it was almost dead on. Too bad I do not favor the vintage tone all that much. If I did I would have stayed with the Organic Timber Rhapsody speaker (re-engineered EV with midrange boost) or the RedBack Celestion. Note that the V30 is not a true vintage tone in my opinion. The Redback is a drop in replacement for the MC90 as is the Celestion Crème Alnico. EV or OTR is not as both would require front baffle mounting vs rear baffle mounting due to basket size and tube clearance.

 

[dmcnevin70]

Thanks for the response. I know you were pretty happy with the Cream tone when you first installed it, so I guess I'm wondering if it will sound good at more moderate volumes. I rarely if ever done my amps. I'm not very impressed with the Eminence. I've had two of them now and neither we're all that great. That said, the Celestion Alnico Gold seemed to smooth the sound in a Marshall, Bad Cat, and retained the clarity and chime, and even added depth and that 3 dimensional quality to a Fender. All are combo amps (I guess that's just my thing) , so I'm hoping to get that same chiminess, full body and tight bass from the higher power handling Alnico Cream. But I don't know what to expect by going down that road. i.e. if the Cream has that ability to quell the "icepick" sound but retain a certain sparkle or chime and remain tight in the bottom end. I don't suppose you have any sound samples by chance?

 

[bandit2013]

Thanks for the response. I know you were pretty happy with the Cream tone when you first installed it, so I guess I'm wondering if it will sound good at more moderate volumes. I rarely if ever done my amps. I'm not very impressed with the Eminence. I've had two of them now and neither we're all that great. That said, the Celestion Alnico Gold seemed to smooth the sound in a Marshall, Bad Cat, and retained the clarity and chime, and even added depth and that 3 dimensional quality to a Fender. All are combo amps (I guess that's just my thing) , so I'm hoping to get that same chiminess, full body and tight bass from the higher power handling Alnico Cream. But I don't know what to expect by going down that road. i.e. if the Cream has that ability to quell the "icepick" sound but retain a certain sparkle or chime and remain tight in the bottom end. I don't suppose you have any sound samples by chance?

I only recorded the Mark V once, and it was with the Alnico Crème speaker. This was prior to any preamp mods, except for the bias correction (needed to have it adjusted to prevent red plating power tubes ) I do not have any recordings of the amp without drums or bass. There are several tracks of the guitar, the main melody was recorded on at least 5 tracks. The main effects , Strymon big sky, was actually run in the FX loop of the recorder and I used a stymon DIG in parallel. I also had a Boss Terra echo in the Mark V loop as that thing is a dynamic delay. I got the sound effects this way since having all of them in the Mark V loop tend to get a bit sloppy. The accent track of the dark grind is also from the Mark V. The main body was using the Extreme voice and the accent parts were Mark IV (if I remember correctly but that was over a year ago). Sorry for the bad drumming as I am still a beginner at that. I had used a Roland TDK-15 edrums but have moved on to an acoustic drum set (just more complicated to record with due to needing 12 mics to record, have those too but have not gotten back into recording for some time).

https://soundcloud.com/user-353100000/tempted01wav

I think I should recheck my peak levels on the Mark V after I did all of the mods to it. If they are below the 110Wrms Peak I may entertain installing the Crème 90W alnico again. I did install a pair of those in a RA100 combo. Not exactly what I expected but sounds ok. May run the Mark V though that and see if I get the same smile on my face as I did with the single speaker. For the gain channels, I thought the Crème outperformed the others I have tried. I killed the WGS Blackhawk HP100 in a Mark IV combo, not a good match. the Jensen Jet Blackbird probably had the best clean channel sound I ever heard, but it did not do well with the higher gain channels. That one in particular took a long time to break in. As for the Crème, it still works but I think it has seen better days (over powered it with the JP-2C, then finished it off with the Mark V when I blue-printed the bias circuit, with original bias circuit the amp was pegging the peak power meter on the Rivera Rock Crusher and the max is at 150W, I also destroyed the MC90 before I realized the power was that high, it is back to where it should be now. I did love the Celestion Creme with the Mark V combo but probably for different reasons (high freq roll off). That would give me reason to go back to a 12AX7 in V4. Still though, the only channel that seems to be at stake was the clean channel. That sounded a bit honky or midrange burdened. It is not a sterile sounding speaker by any means, very forward in pick attack, unlike the EV speaker which seems to lag on response but I have corrected for that with the IIC+ mod I did on the GEQ circuit.

 

[bandit2013]

Here is an update on the Celesiton Crème 90W ALNICO. If you find your Mark V on the brittle side on CH3, the Crème 90W Alnico may work for you, however, if your amp is not brittle in tone (mine was until I modified a few circuits) it will sound like a blanket over the amp. The Crème does have a strong bottom end to it and may tend to sound muddy. I did like the tone before I made the mods and was also running 12AX7 tubes in the preamp. In my opinion, it is not a good fit for the Mark V, I am not sure I even like them in the RA100 combo either. This would also mean the Red Back will have that blanket effect in tone but the bottom end may be a bit better in response. I would also not consider the OTR speaker as that also has a strong relief on the top end with more midrange, bottom end is about the same as an EV classic. EV black label is a bit more full spectrum.

The MC90 is not bad but tends to have a short life pushing it hard. To date I have killed three of them (one in the Mark IV and two in the Mark V, for some reason the dust caps seem to separate from the speaker cone, never had any luck with those).

The 90W Mark V is difficult to match up with a speaker as I had found the peak RMS power is much higher than 90Wrms.

 

[dmcnevin70]

Hey thanks for all the insight and the sound-clip Bandit.
I thought the guitar tone on your tune was smooth enough for me to give it a shot and throw the Alnico Cream in my Mark V as well. I'm curious about the amplifiers versatility as that is what almost everyone eludes to!
New stock Mesa tubes, new speaker, And a few different guitars to run through it:

Gibson Les Paul Studio T
Fender Am. Std. Strat
Fender Am. Tele.
Schecter Damien Elite (EM81/85)

I'm curious as to which will sound best through it, or if all will sound good (or can be made to sound good with some tweaking)

Should be interesting.
I hope to put it through it's paces tomorrow and I also have a Mesa Openback Ext. Cab arriving this week so I can play the mix and match game. But I'm honestly hoping the Cream and the C90 play nice together and I can just leave it as-is.
Then again, who knows, maybe I'll fall hard enough for the Cream to buy another one :mrgreen:

 

[bandit2013]

I did like the Crème before I modified the Mark V. I would suggest against the 12AT7 in V4 trick as that thickens the tone and corrects the high frequency gain issue (not all models are affected with this problem). I also removed a brightness cap on the CH3 tone stack that helped me mod with this amp especially with an EV black label speaker (this speaker can be extremely bright). The Mark V is still very bright but not brittle as it was before the mods. If your amp is stock I hope the Celestion Crème 90W Alnico works for you. It does have some character of the EV speaker on the bottom end but not on the top end. It does have more of a vintage blanket on the tone and since my Mark V was running in the ice pick range when I installed it, the 90W Alnico crème was a rewarding experience. Since the mods, the Crème 90W tends to be more dark in tone. That particular speaker works best in a bright amp. Now I feel it is not a good match with the corrections to the preamp.

Note: you will need about 1 month or longer to break in the speaker, it may fart every now and then and make odd noises but that is the nature of the beast. Also limit your playing time at first and work on using it more gradually. If you could run a break in process on the speaker it probably would help you out in the short run. If the bell gets warm let it cool down as the suspension of the speaker will be a little stiff at first. The Crème sounded the best out of box of the three Alnico speakers I have tried out. The Jenson blackbird took nearly 3 to 4 months of break in time before the higher gain channel sounded half decent. Keep the break in process in mind as the tone will shift a few times during the break in process. Top end will grow more gradually.