Mark IV, Specific questions...Mark IV veterans -Please help!

[visualrocker69]

Mark IV

Hi, as I've been devouring the Mark IV owner's manual in anticipation of its arrival, some questions have arisen.

1) Firstly, I understand from what I've read that tube amps generally require a high master volume setting to attain the optimal sound. How high does this have to be on the Mark IV to achieve that desirable level of tube saturation?

2) I see that the Mark IV has masters for each channel, and also an output level control. Doesn’t this mean that I can simply turn up the masters to get that tube saturation, and then play at a low output level anyway? I’m just a bit confused why everyone’s talking about attenuators and such, complaining about the required volume to get an optimal sound, if this is indeed a viable option.

3) Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuubes. I know nothing about them. Literally. Can anyone point me to somewhere I can read up on them?

But first of all and most importantly…
Should I at first stick to Mesa’s 6L6’s and get to know my Mark IV, or should I immediately start researching and questing for my own preferential tubes?

Just on principle, however, should I run four 6L6 tubes or two 6L6’s and two EL34’s? From what I heard EL34 are more…British-esque. Is this accurate? I know plenty of you use them in your Mark IV’s and IIC+’s!

And a few more questions on tubes… (I realize that for something like “What tubes do you use in your Mark IV” all I have to do is search backwards in these boards, but that won’t answer MY questions…)

So 6L6’s and EL34’s are different kinds of power tubes, right? The smaller ones are preamp tubes, then? But are 6L6 and EL34 like *specific* kinds of tubes or are they just a general tube type that different manufacturers make? Again, I really don’t know anything.

Another thing I don’t understand is the full name of Mesa’s tubes… for example EL34 STR-447 … What does the latter part “STR-447” indicate. And why are they called “Sovtek”? Same for 6L6 STR-440 “Chinese”, 5881 STR-425 “Russian”, 6V6 STR-417 “Chinese”, and Siemens NOS EL34 STR-450… :? :? :? what do all of these labels mean?

And preamp tubes… oh god, I’m even more uncomfortable… are there different kinds of preamp tubes too? Do the differences affect the sound as much as power tubes? I think 12AX7 are the default preamp tubes for Mark IV’s… Am I right?

Thanks for your help everyone… Truly grateful

 

[jerseydrew]

I feel it's great that you're going through the manual in anticipation of your new MkIV. You have tons of questions about tubes and Master Volumes, as well as other things.

Slooooooooooow down. Don't be so quick to do something. The best thing to do is right under your nose. Go to the Mesa amp settings database

http://www.grailtone.com/tone-settings/mesa-boogie/mesa-boogie-amp-settings.html

Go to the MKIV section and try out some different settings. Pick your favorite setting for each channel. Write down these settings. Now you have something to work with. Now you can tweak these if you want.

You may find you don't need to change the tubes or anything else. My MkIV is just fine right out of the box!

 

[devilrob1979]

Mesa sells re-branded tubes made by tube manufacturers. Sovtek is one of these manufacturers. Chinese tubes are generally made by a company called Shuguang or some such thing. Most Russian tubes (Winged C, Svetlana, Sovtek, Electro Harmonix, etc.) are all licensed names by a company called New Sensor. JJ tubes are Czech. All tubes have different characteristics. Check out Dougstbues.com if you're curious or thetubestore.com. EL-34 are the classic british tube you see in Marshalls while 6L6's are often found in Fenders and Boogies. They are completely different.

 

[ToneAddictJon]

I would second looking at the amp settings database, there are great starts in there.

As far as tubes go, don't get to overwhelmed. I go through eurotubes.com for my tubes, and I know some people don't like them, but tubes are going to make subtle differences in your tone, not completely alter your amp into something else. That being said I have stock mesa tubes in it right now except for the EL34's in the outside which are JJ's. 6L6's and EL34's aren't going to sound too different until you crank the amp, I just put EL34's in the outer sockets in my Mark IV and love it, it just adds a little something to my ears, other people can't stand EL34's.

I believe the individual channel volumes control how much you push the preamp tubes and the master controls the power tubes.

Once you get your amp you might not want to mess with it, you might love the tubes it comes with and get YOUR tone out of it. Don't rush to change the tubes before you hear the stock ones, and you can always go to any mesa dealer and tell them what you're retubing and they should be able to get you the right tubes (unless it's GC then they'll be calling Mesa from the back office to figure out what tubes to give you).

I would mess around with all the controls before worrying about tubes, because between all the settings (simul, class-a, triode, pentode, harmonics, mid gain, tweed, full, tone controls!!!) you should be busy for a while.

You are going to have fun with this amp, I know I am.

 

[Platypus]

1) Firstly, I understand from what I've read that tube amps generally require a high master volume setting to attain the optimal sound. How high does this have to be on the Mark IV to achieve that desirable level of tube saturation?

The MarkIV sounds great at cranked channel levels and lower output volume settings.. I typically set my channel masters to around 4 or 5 and run my output at around 2.. experiment around, it sounds good at any volume to be honest. Utilize the Class A mode and the Tweed Power setting to further take advantage of this.

2) I see that the Mark IV has masters for each channel, and also an output level control. Doesn’t this mean that I can simply turn up the masters to get that tube saturation, and then play at a low output level anyway? I’m just a bit confused why everyone’s talking about attenuators and such, complaining about the required volume to get an optimal sound, if this is indeed a viable option.

You are correct, see the response to your first question

3) Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuubes. I know nothing about them. Literally. Can anyone point me to somewhere I can read up on them?

Unless your MarkIV comes with something nonstandard, there's no reason to change tubes right away. Find the tones you like with your stock setup and figure out what things you can't 'dial out' and start changing tubes then.. there are so many options on the Mark IV that I'm still finding new ones and I've had mine a few months already. There are people here who've owned them for years and still are finding new stuff to play with. I've had exceptional tone with the GT 6L6GE 6L6s personally.

But first of all and most importantly…
Should I at first stick to Mesa’s 6L6’s and get to know my Mark IV, or should I immediately start researching and questing for my own preferential tubes?

Yes.

Just on principle, however, should I run four 6L6 tubes or two 6L6’s and two EL34’s? From what I heard EL34 are more…British-esque. Is this accurate? I know plenty of you use them in your Mark IV’s and IIC+’s!

The amp was designed around two EL34's and two 6L6s. That being said, I like running mine with 4 6L6's because I already have other amps with EL34 output tubes and I wanted a purely 6L6 amp. This is all about your personal preference here... I'd stick with the stock again until you find everything there is to be found.

And a few more questions on tubes… (I realize that for something like “What tubes do you use in your Mark IV” all I have to do is search backwards in these boards, but that won’t answer MY questions…)

So 6L6’s and EL34’s are different kinds of power tubes, right? The smaller ones are preamp tubes, then? But are 6L6 and EL34 like *specific* kinds of tubes or are they just a general tube type that different manufacturers make? Again, I really don’t know anything.

Do some research on the web about the differences in tube types. The 6L6 and EL34 are two very distinctly different tubes that cover different sonic territories.. as a very general rule and this is a gross oversimplification but.. think of 6L6's as california/American sounds and EL34's as British sounds. Ie Fender = 6L6 and Marshall = EL34.. that should give you a basic understanding but certainly this is way too simplified to be accurate. There is a wealth of information out there waiting to be had.

Another thing I don’t understand is the full name of Mesa’s tubes… for example EL34 STR-447 … What does the latter part “STR-447” indicate. And why are they called “Sovtek”? Same for 6L6 STR-440 “Chinese”, 5881 STR-425 “Russian”, 6V6 STR-417 “Chinese”, and Siemens NOS EL34 STR-450… :? :? :? what do all of these labels mean?

And preamp tubes… oh god, I’m even more uncomfortable… are there different kinds of preamp tubes too? Do the differences affect the sound as much as power tubes? I think 12AX7 are the default preamp tubes for Mark IV’s… Am I right?

Again, stick with the stock setup for awhile before you start messing around, ESPECIALLY with the preamp as that's a majority of your tone. The preamp tubes are much more important in tone shaping than your output tubes are. If you have an 'A' revision Mark IV, you will have 4 12ax7's and one 12at7.. if you have a 'B' version you will have 5 12ax7s.

Thanks for your help everyone… Truly grateful

 

[MKIII]

Mine was 2nd hand (pre-boogied?) and came with GT's. From my posts, you'll see that I've got questions about them myself! I've had Boogie's for a while and can pick the difference in tubes, but that's just from fiddling about with them over the years.

My honest opinion is that you live with it for a while in it's "as received" state and learn how to get good sounds out of it. You'll note from other posts that it can be a tricky amp to dial in, so don't overcomplicate life straight away!

I liken it to the first rule of setting up a race car - change only one thing at a time, test it and then change it some more.

You'll love it out of the box.

 

[Tuna141]

I prefer running my Mark amps with all 6L6 tubes.

To get nice thick and rich tone with some power amp tube crunch, turn your channel volumes down (I keep mine around 1-3), so you can crank your master volume to around 3-4.

Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post last week, you can also "cut" your graphic EQ bands so that the power section gets pushed some. This helps you get nice tone at lower volumes.

Enjoy your new amp!

 

[Russ]

I think that it shouldn't take long to answer your first couple questions just by playing the amp when it gets there. As far as tubes go, I would suggest running the tubes that are in it first. If you absolutely have to replace tubes when it arrives, I would suggest getting the standard complement until you get a handle on what the amp sounds like.

 

[visualrocker69]

Uhh... I'm getting contradicting statements here, concerning the proper use of channel masters and output level.

The MarkIV sounds great at cranked channel levels and lower output volume settings.. I typically set my channel masters to around 4 or 5 and run my output at around 2..

I believe the individual channel volumes control how much you push the preamp tubes and the master controls the power tubes.

To get nice thick and rich tone with some power amp tube crunch, turn your channel volumes down (I keep mine around 1-3), so you can crank your master volume to around 3-4.

It seems some people seem to think that individual "channel masters" are just preamp levels and that the "output level" is the only thing that controls the output in the power section... which is correct?

 

[Platypus]

Uhh... I'm getting contradicting statements here, concerning the proper use of channel masters and output level.

The MarkIV sounds great at cranked channel levels and lower output volume settings.. I typically set my channel masters to around 4 or 5 and run my output at around 2..

I believe the individual channel volumes control how much you push the preamp tubes and the master controls the power tubes.

To get nice thick and rich tone with some power amp tube crunch, turn your channel volumes down (I keep mine around 1-3), so you can crank your master volume to around 3-4.

It seems some people seem to think that individual "channel masters" are just preamp levels and that the "output level" is the only thing that controls the output in the power section... which is correct?

It's not so much conflicting information as it is different taste preferences.

The channel masters are going to control your preamp level, the output knob controls the preamp/postamp mix level. If you run a higher output and lower channel volumes, you're getting power amp saturation being the dominant component. If you run a higher channel master and a lower output you're getting more preamp distortion. It's all about balance and finding what sounds good for your ears. There is no right or wrong answer to that question.

For me personally as I said, I like cranking the preamp levels and controlling the overall output with the output knob. To me, this gives the best cranked tone at lower volumes. When I say cranked, I'm talking 4 or 5 here.. not 10. I like the mix level that running my lead at 4 and output at 2 provides. This is something that only you can decide if you like.

 

[visualrocker69]

Ahh ok!
Thanks

 

[jerseydrew]

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but you're putting the cart before the horse. Just go to the Amp Settings Database and click on MKIV. Try out a bunch of those settings. Those people who have posted, have already put in a lot of time with their MKIV's.

 

[visualrocker69]

Yup! Definately will do. I've understood that I shouldn't mess with tubes until I'm comfortable with the amp, and should worry about subtleties before I've tried things out on my own.

Just wanted to get some understanding on these topics (well ahead of time).

 

[Russ]

The best knowledge you will attain about the amp will be hands on after you know what the switches and knobs do.