Mark IV + DC-3 + A/B/Y = Heaven.

[LEVEL4]

I promised myself that I wouldn't start this thread until I could post some clips, but I just couldn't resist. To any of you who own a Mark IV—buy a DC-3. And to those of you who own a DC-series amp—buy a Mark IV. A/B/Y these two amps together, and you'll have the sweetest lead tone ever. I actually think this works with any two Mesa/Boogie amps with GEQs, but, it seems to work best with a combination of a natively "dark" amp (DC-series), and a natively "tight" amp (Mark IV).

Here's my lead set-up:

• Mark IV rackmount head ("bright" amp).
• AudioTechnica AT3035 large-diaphragm condenser mic.
• DC-3 rackmount head ("dark" amp).
• Roland Space Echo RE-20 re-issue in DC-3 parallel effects loop, mixed at 50%.
• Shure SM57 dynamic mic.
• Voodoo Lab Amp Selector A/B/C/D switch.

Here's my rhythm set-up:

• Single-Recto Solo 50 head ("bright" amp).
• AudioTechnica AT3035 large-diaphragm condenser mic.
• Peavey 6505 head ("dark" amp).
• Shure SM57 dynamic mic.
• Voodoo Lab Amp Selector A/B/C/D switch.

Similar to the lead set-up, I have a "bright" amp (Single-Recto) A/B/Y'd with a "dark" amp (6505). Someday, I want to change out the 6505 to a Soldano SLO100, or just have the 6505 modded by Jerry at FJAmods.

The trick is to EQ each amp, in each A/B/Y set-up, to be of contrasting EQ profiles—one dark, and one bright. With this strategy, you get both the tight high-end, which gives you that biting attack and definition, combined with the deep, aggressive tones that give you that mid-range growl. This would also work with two identical amps (e.g., two Mark IIIs), each EQ'd in opposing fashions, although it's easiest if the amps' voicings are already different to begin with. Try it. I guarantee, you'll never go back to a single-amp, set-up again. Also, note that I record the "dark" amps with a darker, "mid-rangey" mic (SM57), and the "bright" amps with a brighter, "high-frequency response" mic (AT3035 condenser) to both accentuate and complement each amps' voicings.

 

[trem]

Bright recto? Dark 6505?

 

[LEVEL4]

Bright recto? Dark 6505?

My Recto is noticeably brighter than my 6505. It has noticably more presence and treble on-tap than my 6505. But the point is, to simply EQ one darker, and EQ the other brighter.

A/B/Y Switch Information:

I bought a $100 Whirlwind A/B/Y switch, and returned it because I got nothing but noise. Don't even think about the $49 Morley A/B/Y switches, or whatever else they have at Guitar Center. You NEED to buy an A/B/Y switch with built-in isolation transformers in order to get rid of the ground-loop hum between your amps.

• BigShot ABY, from Radial Engineering, true-bypass switcher $79 USD.
Optical switches, isolation transformers, ground-lift, polarity-inverter. Quiet, and affordable. Doesn't require power. Tuner output.

• Voodoo Lab Amp Selector A/B/C/D switcher $229 USD.
Optical switches, isolation transformers, plus ground-lift DIP switch for each output (amp). Requires 9-volt battery or 9V power supply. Use up to four amps (play any one, two, three, or all four amps simultaneously). Use up to two guitars. Dedicated, out-of-signal-path tuner output. Excellent! Highly recommended.

There's also the Framptone A/B/C switch, but it's more expensive than the Voodoo A/B/C/D switch. I would recommend either of the above, depending on how many amps you have.

 

[trem]

Clips mate!

 

[Kazak]

Hey LEVEL4, I am really glad you started this thread as I have been experimenting with the A/B/Y thing for a while now.

I have been trying to cure a rather acute case of GAAS, by buying as many amps as I can, (this treatment actually worked for guitars, I am down to 7 from about 25, with no desire for any more!) but it has led to the idea that 2 or more amps at once can give you a whole new approach to "tone".

It does add a level of complication, when I pair up the RK with the Sig:X the array of possibilities is a little daunting, but well worth while in the end. I usually start with a setting I like on each amp individually, combine them and tweak from there. Fortunately I am doing this in the studio, as the idea of trying this live would present a whole new array of switching issues etc.

I did get the POS Morley A/B/Y box and the noise does make it almost useless, so I will be ordering a Voodoo Labs Amp Selector shortly, for which I thank you (I didn't know anyone made an A/B/C/D) which of course will complicate things even more.

I, also, will try to post some clips when I can get to it. I should probably start a new thread for this, but does anyone want to chime in on the best clip hosting service? I would be very interested in hearing other dual/multiple amp rigs.

 

[BMarchant]

Guys,
Redzone makes the Splitzo A/B/Y which works great. http://www.redzoneeffects.com/ Its what I use to run my rig. I'm using a Stiletto Deuce and a Dual Recto at the same time. I also use a LoneStar Classic. My Deuce is set up in the blue channel crunch AC/DC tone. I then add the Dual Recto like a big distorton box. My low end and gain comes from the Recto. It sounds like two guitar players except the timing is perfect.

As far as setting the tone. I set it up so both sound good by themselves. Then blend them. Stevie Ray did this, also Keith Richards. Keith has his Fender clean amp , and a Marshall with gain on at the same time for his tone. I never tried one bright and one dark. If both amps are different models, this should give you enough tone difference to make it sound huge. Mark Tremonti is doing this too.

Here is my rig and pedal board to run it.

Bmarchant

 

[LEVEL4]

Clips mate!

Yeah, clips. Like I said, I was trying NOT to start this thread until I had clips ready to post. Will post some demo clips as soon as I get my **** together.

Hey LEVEL4, I am really glad you started this thread as I have been experimenting with the A/B/Y thing for a while now . . . I did get the POS Morley A/B/Y box and the noise does make it almost useless, so I will be ordering a Voodoo Labs Amp Selector shortly, for which I thank you . . .

You're welcome! I'm just glad someone appreciates the info! Multiple-amping really is the ****. I just can't believe the range of tones possible with this set-up. You spend so much time and effort finding the "ultimate amp," when in reality, your ultimate tone can be had much easier when playing two amps together. You can get "growl" AND "bite" at the same time, using two amps.

Redzone makes the Splitzo A/B/Y which works great. http://www.redzoneeffects.com/ . . .

I'm not doubting your experience with this product, but I didn't see anywhere in their product description where they mentioned any sort of isolation transformer or ground-lifting features. Maybe you happen to have really clean power and naturally isolated grounds in your house or something, because without built-in isolation transformers, multiple amps, when connected together through an A/B/Y switch, will create a ground-loop hum that's unbelievably loud.

To all:

You don't have to be made of money to do this. If you already have a Mark-series amp, then consider looking at ANY other vintage Mesa/Boogie amp on Ebay. Even two of the same amps, EQ'd differently (e.g. two Marks). There are many used Mesa amps out there that are still very moderately priced used. Like I said, pair up a tight amp, like a Mark IV, and virtually any other vintage Mesa/Boogie amp out there (other Mark-series amps, DC-series amps, F-series amps, Subways, Nomads, etc). Dial any one of those amps "dark," then set your Mark's EQ to "bright," click on your A/B/Y switch, and get ready to piss your pants!

 

[BMarchant]

Level 4,
You know how the tone in email can seem, so just so you know, I'm not bashing here, so please dont take it that way. My gear never makes it to my house. My experiance isn't from playing in my bedroom. I've been running multiple amps since the 80s. Never had an issue with ground loop hum at all. Played 5 nights a week for a long time in every possible location.

The hum will come from the amps sitting to close to each other if they happen to be reverse phased between the two. Not from dirty power. If you get hum, you move them apart by just a foot (dont stack them directly on top of each other if the amps are reverse phased), the hum goes away. Thats why you'll see the same amps stacked in one rack, and another brand in a different rack. Boogie even tells you in the Lonestar Manual. "The only time you will ever need to consider this reversal of overall phase is if you ever run the LONE STAR in Stereo with another amp (not another LONE STAR as it would be in phase with its Loop activated). In this case you would probably want to separate the two amplifiers by at least a few feet".


I went from the Radial Bigshot A/B/Y to the Splitzo one. The Radial works fine and the ground loops are nice, but you cant tell which amps are on (no LED lights). Major pain in a live sitsuation. If your worried about ground hum and can't keep the amps apart, then spend the money for the Voodoo Lab Amp Selector. Otherwise, if you have two amps that have a reverse phase, just move them. Put one head on one cab, the other amp on another cab. It not that big of a deal. I used a cheap Rapco A/B box in 1985 with no noise.

Tremonti has two Bogners in one rack, and his Mesa and Orange in another rack. Just move them and save money.

Bmarchant

 

[trem]

If you really don't have to do A/B, just Y all the time, then a Boss CH-1 Chorus pedal can do the job perfectly also. No hum whatsoever. Ran a 5150 and JCM 900 SL-X in the studio like this for years.

 

[Nomad]

Sorry to butt in but you can get hum from multiple amp setups lots of different ways. The least troublesome being setting two amp too close together.

Stray voltages bleed off to ground in any circuit and when you hook two amps together you can get hum from the voltages going back through the now loop in the ground through the amps circuit cuasing hum. Some combinations are worse than others.

I have seen it many times in my 34 years of playing.

This is not just an Amp problem. Mutiple Digital Electronic Units can have the exact same problem. The stray voltages cuase some devices to scroll up and down in a drift untill one of the grounds between the units is unhooked.


As far as phasing is concerned its much better to use a simple phase reversal tool. Try it, take two amps spread them 20 feet apart and listen to the out of phase sound then switch the phase and listen again. You will think everything is working until you hear the difference. If you want Booteek quality Lehle offeres the P-Split which has an Isolation Transformer, Ground Lift on one Output, and a Phase Reversal Switch for Output B. It's not cheap but is a very useful tool both in the studio and live. The Lehle unit is a passive non footswitchable simple unit that can be tucked away in a pedal board or rack.

The Voodoo Labs unit is very very nice as well. My good friend currently has my VDL Switcher. I just dont need all that many amps hooked up at once these days. I played a large outside gig recently and just took my little old Mark III, my Small Pedal Board and one Guitar.

BTW I absolutly love the sound of Multiple Amps Live!


Caution never lift the AC Ground on a Vacuum Tube Guitar Amp.

 

[BMarchant]

Hi Nomad,
I hear what you are saying, and your totally right. Lots of things can cause 60 cycle hum. But, have you ever put a lone star on top of a dual Recto at full volume. You want to hear some hum.

When troubleshooting, start with the easy stuff first. Your trying two amps for the first time. Now you have hum. You know the first thing they will do is stack the two amps on top of each other. Did the amps make that hum before, when you only used one at a time. Maybe its caused by the amps being out of phase. How many guys on this board even know that amps can be out of phase from each other. If they are and its causing the hum, move them. If that doesnt get rid of it, then move on.

Everyone (including me) jumps on the " It must be dirty power" bandwagon when they hear 60 cycle hum. Not every place has bad power or bad wiring.


First thing in my rack is a Furman AR-15 Voltage Regulator (not talking about a power conditioner). You dont go on the road without one. My gear was always plugged into one. Stray voltages, ground loop noise, and voltage spikes just don't happen if your using one. You also get a constant 110V, and no noise.

I like your recomendation on the Lehle stuff. Great amp switchers. Only drawback for most guys is the cost, $350.00 which is up there with the Voodoo stuff. Someone mentioned the Radial Big Shot. They make good stuff. The bigshot works. I have one in my junk crate. Live it sucks. I'll sell it cheap if anyone wants it.

Redzones Splitzo works great for me. Its an option that guys may not know of because they arent that well known yet. You can call them and talk to the guy who is designing and building the stuff. Which is kind of cool.

I question needing isolation transformers for every application. Great to have, but not a necessity. If your worried about needing an Isolation Transformer, spend the money and get the Voodoo Labs or Lehle amp switcher. If your playing in your bedroom, or play out ocassionally, don't spend that kind of money for something you dont really need. Especially if what is causing your noise is removed by just moving the amps.

 

[Hanslow]

After reading all this, I've started thinking about pairing up my DC-3 with my Diezel Einstein. I don't have an A/B/Y pedal, and it would really be to hear them running in Y config all the time, and after some tinkering, I think I can split my guitar signal with my Boss NS-2. Only did a simple test because when I came to plug it into my DC-3, I found that one of the wires has broken off the speaker so needs soldering back on

I've previously manually changed the DC-3 (was combo, now head) and Einy into my Orange 4x12, having made my own headshell for the DC-3 chassis. Once I sort the wiring out, and might make it a longer cable at the same time, I'll connect my DC-3 "head" back up to its original 1x12 combo and get on with the volume balancing. I'm really intrigued to hear what the two sound like together

It may hum a bit, but I'm only playing in a spare room in the house but all this talk of running amps in stereo has piqued my curiosity I'd post a recording but a) I'm crap (really!) and b) I don't have recording equipment (because I'm crap )

 

[Nomad]

BTW the Lehle P-Split is $150.00 but does not AB it only Y's. It is best used for two amps on all the time. Though I believe Lehle also makes the Little Lehle which shouldnt be that much. They make some very nice stuff with very high quality components.

Note -- When Ying a signal allways be aware of Impedence Loading. If you simply make a Y Cable for your amps it aint gonna sound good.

 

[bpm91]

I've done this with the Radial ToneBone JX2 Pro for my Mark III and Rectoverb. The sound was big, interesting, but left me flat because the two amps are voiced way too different.

However, when running my Mark IV and the Studio Pre through the Mark III loop... good stuff. There is something to be said about those GEQs.

I'll be picking up a 295 on the cheap this weekend that will be dedicated to the Studio Pre. Now I'll need a 3-banger.

 

[Nomad]

You'll be needing the Voodoo Labs then. :lol:

 

[BMarchant]

Hey Nomad,
Sorry bout that, I was thinking of the Lehle Dual Amp Switcher which is $359.00. That is a A/B/Y that is very much like the voodoo. I was actually looking at the lehle and the voodoo, when I went with the Redzone.

 

[Nomad]

Well it's not like I get something out of it. I was just mentioning some stuff that works and does all of the above.

BTW the Redzone stuff looks fine.

Have you tried the Gain Green? I'd be curious about that. Kinda Look for something is the lines of a Clean Boost that does more of what I want. Not sure if my Timmy is staying. Its a good Pedal but not sure if I quite jive with it.

The OCD stays for life though.

 

[LEVEL4]

Oh, right. Forgot to mention the Lehles. Interesting to know about the Boss Chorus used as a 'Y' as well. LOTS of good information here! I'm glad I started this thread, then. I'm certainly no electronics expert, and only became aware of AC phase being an issue from reading all your posts. Still don't completely understand it, so all you experts, keep posting away!

I have two amps in the same rack, the Mark IV and the DC-3. I have the other two amps about ten feet apart from both each other, and the rack. The noise seems to come from the Mark IV. All amps are plugged into the same, grounded circuit, through a Furman PL-Plus D, which is ONLY a power conditioner, and not a "voltage regulator," as BMarchant mentions. Not sure how to resolve this (although the Voodoo does a pretty good job), since it's ultra-convenient to have the Mark IV and DC-3 in the same rack.

It may be worthy to note that the Radial ABY does have a 180-degree phase invert switch, while the Voodoo does not. I have the Voodoo, and it's very quiet. I do have one of the amps ground-lifted (the Mark IV), using the ground-lift DIP switch on the Voodoo. I still pick up some faint RF interference (a Los Angeles-area AM radio station, KNX), but overall, the Voodoo's preformance seems excellent.

 

[trem]

Interesting to know about the Boss Chorus used as a 'Y' as well.

Apparently that's how Zakk Wylde runs his two JCM 800s. Just found out after all these years :lol:. He's pretty unique in the sense that there's no truly high end gizmo in his setup, unless you count Les Paul and EVMs as high end.

 

[fatoni]

im buying a dc3 and an aby pedal and i already own a mkiv. doing some research about the differences i run into this thread...pretty cool